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You might want to consider the verses before these for context.The bible starts out with man disobeying and alienating himself from God. This is when man became "apart" from Him. Anyone who deosn't understand that the rest of the bible constitutes God's patient work to rectify that situation, providing both the means and a beckoning, an appeal, for us to respond, doesn't understand the gospel well.
"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
2 Cor 5:20-21
The problem with the writer’s argument lays here.I’ve written in CP before that I believe once a Christian is saved through the sacrifice of Christ, they cannot lose their salvation. This doctrine is most often called the perseverance (sometimes labeled “preservation”) of the saints.
On this topic, the Westminster Confession of Faith says: “They whom God hath accepted in His beloved Son effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit can neither totally nor finally fall away from a state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved.”
There are plenty who disagree with this.
For example, the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent declared: “If anyone says that a man once justified cannot lose grace and therefore that he who falls and sins never was truly justified, let him be accursed.” And at the 1610 Conference of the Remonstrants (what Arminians called themselves then) said, “Persons truly regenerate, by neglecting grace and grieving the Holy Spirit with sin, fall away totally, and at length finally, from grace into eternal reprobation.”
While I think those who believe this, including the ones who laid the foundation of the you-can-lose-your-salvation position, have good intentions and are primarily trying to guard against the issue of “cheap grace,” it overlooks the fact that the Christian faith is built on the pattern of the unconditional Abrahamic covenant outlined in Genesis 12:1–3. Abraham was called, blessed, and then exhibited faith just as we do today.
Continued below.
Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security
All our sins past and future evaporated at the cross and can t be resurrected against us ever, and thus we re forever protected from themwww.christianpost.com
Kinda' like God hardening Pharaoh's heart so he would not obey (Ex 4:21). . .Very good! Adam literally failed to believe God and disobedience was bound to follow. And this is why faith is the reversal of that situation, bringing us back home from that state of disobedience: believing in God is to be reconciled with Him and Jesus came for that very purpose, to reveal a God truly worth believing in, hoping in, and, most importantly, loving.
But the point is that God's will isn't necessarily always done-Adam's will was allowed to deny God's will-unless we're to believe that God wanted Adam to disobey after strictly forbidding him to do so.
Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.And either way, this is why we're taught to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", because of the very real possibilty of it not being done. And there's a place, of course, for those who adamantly reject His will.
God is a God who places a very high value on the freedom He granted to certain sentient rational created beings. Because with that freedom, and only with that freedom, can we become the beings He created us to be, beings who love as He does.
Why shouldn't it be contingent???You might want to consider the verses before these for context.
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NASB2020
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chris | New American Standard Bib
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Chrisbible.com
If those with saving faith are indeed a new creation then how can they be uncreated? If God gave those with saving faith the ministry of reconciliation and not counting their wrongdoings against those with saving faith then how can those with saving faith loose the ministry of reconciliation and have their wrongdoings counted against them?
It's both/and. Pharoah also hardened his own heart, Exodus 8:32Kinda' like God hardening Pharaoh's heart so he would not obey (Ex 4:21). . .
Man's only source of true righteousness and life is God, the Vine. God draws all men to himself. Man's only choice is in whether or not he'll allow himself to be drawn near, and to remain near to Him. To the extent that he does, his justice/righteousness will take root, blossom, and flourish.Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.
The freedom of the NT is freedom from bondage to sin, not freedom of the human will, which is governed by the disposition, which is fallen and sinful.
Man's will is not free to choose to live a sinless life in thought, word and deed.
What do you mean contingent? There is absolutely nothing contingent about becoming a new creation. You did not address my questions to you.Why shouldn't it be contingent???
Paul explains the purpose of the fire regarding judgement in 1 Corinthians 3."If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6
Now, if we're producing good fruit, if we find ourselves loving well as John also tells us we must, then we have good reason to believe we're one of His. Being a new creation is all about nearness to God, the branch being grafted into the Vine. And nearness to God means change, evidenced by how we love, and how we live as a result.
Sure I did.What do you mean contingent? There is absolutely nothing contingent about becoming a new creation. You did not address my questions to you.
No. You're not comapring apples with apples. Paul has this to say, directly related to Jesus' words about branches grafted in,“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB2020
Of course not. Neither are Jesus and James et al in tension with John and Paul, But none say that man can't resist grace, that believers are necessarily guaranteed to do good works- just the opposite, in fact. We're warned in Rom 6 that sin leads to death and that we must "offer every part of yourself to Him as an instrument of righteousness", because holiness results in eternal life. So Jesus can rightly say,John and Paul are not in tension. Those with saving faith will naturally do works from salvation not for salvation.
Where? Please point to your post where you addressed my questions?Sure I did.
Your typical deflection. I’ll respond to you when you show me where you responded to the questions that I asked you in my post 22.No. You're not comapring apples with apples. Paul has this to say, directly related to Jesus' words about branches grafted in,
"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." Rom 11:17-21
Your's is a novel argument devised to support a novel gospel a few centuries past..
Of course not. Neither are Jesus and James et al in tension with John and Paul, But none say that man can't resist grace, that believers are necessarily guaranteed to do good works- just the opposite, in fact. We're warned in Rom 6 that sin leads to death and that we must "offer every part of yourself to Him as an instrument of righteousness", because holiness results in eternal life. So Jesus can rightly say,
"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:1
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:36-40
With Paul echoing:
"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom 13:8-10
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." 2 Cor 3:6
Same post. You quoted 2 Cor 5: "If anyone is in Christ...", and then added your opinion that the resulting new creation cannot be uncreated, that we can’t compromise our saved status. And I quoted John 15:5 in response: Jesus said, "If you remain in Me..." That implies choice-as do many of the quotes in my following post.Where? Please point to your post where you addressed my questions?
These are a good points. By way of the new creation we have "become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Co 5:17-21). It is only by looking past what we have in Christ (i.e., that we are forgiven of our sins and are alive to God in Christ Jesus) that one could conclude that we could be uncreated and held to account for all our sins. I don't think anyone who has heeded the instructions to look at himself this way (Romans 6:11) would at the same time see himself as being in danger of perdition because of his sins.You might want to consider the verses before these for context.
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NASB2020
If those with saving faith are indeed a new creation then how can they be uncreated? If God gave those with saving faith the ministry of reconciliation and not counting their wrongdoings against those with saving faith then how can those with saving faith loose the ministry of reconciliation and have their wrongdoings counted against them?
That was posed in the form of a question to you. You have to look at the sentence structure in the original language to realize that the change is permanent. I don’t have time to post it now but I’m sure that you have access to an interlinear.Same post. You quoted 2 Cor 5: "If anyone is in Christ...", and then added your opinion that the resulting new creation cannot be uncreated, that we can’t compromise our saved status.
My contention has never been that all that profess faith will indeed remain in Christ. Only those whose seed landed in fertile ground will always remain in Christ, ie those with saving faith. Read the parable of the soils.And I quoted John 15:5 in response: Jesus said, "If you remain in Me..." That implies choice-as do many of the quotes in my following post.
And I answered it. It's all of Scripture that must be looked at, to shed full light on the whole.That was posed in the form of a question to you. You have to look at the sentence structure in the original language to realize that the change is permanent. I don’t have time to post it now but I’m sure that you have access to an interlinear.
The real point for the purpose of this thread is in whether or not we can know with 100% perfect certainty that we, individually, will end up being that good soil. Now, if we're producing good fruit, and increasingly so generally speaking, perhaps best understood as the fruit born of the love poured into our hearts (Rom 5:5), then we have good evidence and can have a strong level of confidence that we're one of His. Anything else is just talk- possibly self-deceptionMy contention has never been that all that profess faith will indeed remain in Christ. Only those whose seed landed in fertile ground will always remain in Christ, ie those with saving faith. Read the parable of the soils.
You still need to address the individual verse also because I’ve seen way to many people that dont let scripture interpret scripture because if their own color lenses, their particularly those that use extra biblical sources or consider other sources authoritative.And I answered it. It's all of Scripture that must be looked at, to shed full light on the whole.
Those with saving faith are assured because they do works naturally and follow Jesus. The problem comes when others attempt to judge their faith or anyone’s faith for that matter. I know my heart and I know that God knows my heart. We are,though, imperfect by nature but have the God given capacity to work alongside God for our sanctification.The real point for the purpose of this thread is in whether or not we can know with 100% perfect certainty that we, individually, will end up being that good soil. Now, if we're producing good fruit, and increasingly so generally speaking, perhaps best understood as the fruit born of the love poured into our hearts (Rom 5:5), then we have good evidence and can have a strong level of confidence that we're one of His. Anything else is just talk- possibly self-deception
Which alters nothing regarding the fact that God wanted Pharaoh to harden his heart against him (Ex 4:21, Ro 9:17-18).It's both/and. Pharoah also hardened his own heart, Exodus 8:32
I did address it.You still need to address the individual verse also because I’ve seen way to many people that dont let scripture interpret scripture because if their own color lenses, their particularly those that use extra biblical sources or consider other sources authoritative.
Those with saving faith are assured because they do works naturally and follow Jesus. The problem comes when others attempt to judge their faith or anyone’s faith for that matter. I know my heart and I know that God knows my heart. We are,though, imperfect by nature but have the God given capacity to work alongside God for our sanctification.
No true Scotsman fallacy. You continue to distort my argument by generalizing to all. My argument is strictly with regards of those with saving faith. I argue that those with saving faith cannot shipwreck their faith. If you want to propose a proper argument I’ll be happy to address it.I did address it.
Yes, God knows and judges by the heart, which He knows far better than we do. And I'll trust that He'll judge based on flawless, infinte wisdom, justice, mercy, and love. I'll not presume to judge anyone's faith- or their hope, or love, or relationship with Him, including my own-I'll let Him do that. But He gives us guidelines for what a good and pure heart should "look like" as reflected in the way we live our lives. That's what revelation is all about, so that we can know, so that we can know Him and His will. And those guidelines include more than having faith alone, with warnings, encouragements, exhortations, admonishments, instruction etc: both carrots and sticks, for our greatest good.
Faith can be "made shipwreck of". We can taste of the heavenly gift and later spit it out, we can escape the pollution of the world by coming to the knowledge of Christ and still return to the pigsty, we can return to the flesh, failing lto put to death the deeds of the flesh, reaping what we sow, we can end up poor soil where the plant took root for a while, we can fail to perservere, fail to be vigilant; we can, simply put, fail to love, all biblical concepts regarding criteria for entering eternal life-and that's why we're told about them, because of the real possibility of failing at them. To believe that we're totally immune from this would be presumption. And it would require a person ignoring large swaths of Scripture, "because of their own color lenses".
Sounds more than a bit duplicitous regarding His command that He gave to Adam, whereas lots of extra grace was given in various ways after the Fall for His ultimate purpose of bringing Messiah into the world, to counteract the fruit of Adam's disobedience: sin and death. And, again, Pharoah hardened his own heart as well. Either way, it's both/and:Which alters nothing regarding the fact that God wanted Pharaoh to harden his heart against him (Ex 4:21, Ro 9:17-18).
As he may have done with Adam, for the purpose of his glory through the glory of his Son.
No Scotsman fallacy because the concept of some one-time or in any case permanent "saving faith" as differentiated from, what, "normal faith"?, isn't biblical to begin with. The elect will, by definition, be saved. Knowing with absolute certainty whether or not we're among that number is another matter altogether. I have no doubt that the following people had true fatih. Whether or not they ended up saved is another matter.No true Scotsman fallacy. You continue to distort my argument by generalizing to all. My argument is strictly with regards of those with saving faith. I argue that those with saving faith cannot shipwreck their faith. If you want to propose a proper argument I’ll be happy to address it.
The elect will, by definition, be saved.
And that is where your church teachings take you. It takes you to uncertainty and fear. This is the result of salvation by faith plus works. Have I done enough works? Am I good enough? Have I sinned to much? You live life in fear. You need to dump your doubt and go to Jesus.Knowing with absolute certainty whether or not we're among that number is another matter altogether. I have no doubt that the following people had true fatih. Whether or not they ended up saved is another matter.
There you go."Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43
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