Herd Immunity?

"Hank Roberts - this forum is not exclusively for Americans and the matter of vaccination is not one limited to our nation. "

Um, I believe I acknowledged that. I'm not addressing how others in other countries "should" or "should not" deal with the issue. I specifically addressed the issue here. If anyone mistakenly got the impression I was trying to extend that to other nations, then it was just that: a mistaken impression.

From a previous post in this discussion: "At least, in this country. (I keep adding that because I realize not everyone here is from this country, and the rules are quite different elsewhere.)"

hankroberts said:

It is a false argument that the rights of individuals must be subordinate to the “rights of society”, because society has no rights. According to the Founding Fathers, rights are inherent in the individual, who is endowed with those rights by his Creator. Society is merely a group of individuals who associate together, and have no such inherent rights within the social group, other than those of the individuals themselves.

When one tries to impose limits on the rights of individuals in the name of the collective, they are presuming that the group has some rights not invested in the individual, or that the group has rights of a higher order than those invested in the individuals in the group. This is an unwarranted presumption: no such rights exist.

The rights which a man has are inherent: the government may acknowledge these rights; they may enforce these rights; and they may defend these rights. But by the decree of the founders of our republic, the government has absolutely no authority to countermand, to interrupt or to remove those rights, under any circumstances.

The founders were clear that they would rather risk the potential disadvantages to a society from the greater liberty of the individual than to risk the potential disadvantages to an individual from any restraint of personal liberty. In the words of Thomas Jefferson, “The Law is often but the tyrants will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.” He also said “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too little.”

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It's rather curious why you cut off the first part of Jefferson's quote. Since you left it out, I'll happy complete it:

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

Why on earth would you have left out a phrase like "within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others"?

That sounds an awful lot like the rights of others (i.e. society) puts limits on you, as long as it's reasonable.

Public health is a reasonable thing to consider the rights of the public at large over the rights of the individual. If you are choosing to put everyone else at risk, you should not be able to do that consequence free.

There's a major precedent under US law for this sort of thing. Conscription is an example of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the individual, or the right for police or whatnot to commandeer your property in the midst of doing their public duties. Both of those are done for the sake of public safety, one is national defense, the other is law enforcement and is therefore justified.

Public health is just as important as national defense and law enforcement, so it's not hard to justify some form of punishment for not getting your children vaccinated.

hankroberts said:

"Hank Roberts - this forum is not exclusively for Americans and the matter of vaccination is not one limited to our nation. "

Um, I believe I acknowledged that. I'm not addressing how others in other countries "should" or "should not" deal with the issue. I specifically addressed the issue here. If anyone mistakenly got the impression I was trying to extend that to other nations, then it was just that: a mistaken impression.

From a previous post in this discussion: "At least, in this country. (I keep adding that because I realize not everyone here is from this country, and the rules are quite different elsewhere.)"

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No question there, and I am keeping this within the bounds of American law because of that.

However as an FYI, up here in Canada in my home province (Ontario) vaccination against diphtheria, tetanus, polio, whooping cough, measles, rubella, mumps, chicken pox and meningococcal disease is actually compulsory for a child to attend public school.

If you choose to not have your child vaccinated, they can not enroll in public school. However you are still required by law to have your child attend school until the age of 18. That means you must either pay out of pocket to have your child attend a private school that will let them in or home school them.

Personally, I think that's absolutely fair.

Dave Ellis said:

It's rather curious why you cut off the first part of Jefferson's quote. Since you left it out, I'll happy complete it:

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

Why on earth would you have left out a phrase like "within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others"?

That sounds an awful lot like the rights of others (i.e. society) puts limits on you, as long as it's reasonable.

Public health is a reasonable thing to consider the rights of the public at large over the rights of the individual. If you are choosing to put everyone else at risk, you should not be able to do that consequence free.

There's a major precedent under US law for this sort of thing. Conscription is an example of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the individual, or the right for police or whatnot to commandeer your property in the midst of doing their public duties. Both of those are done for the sake of public safety, one is national defense, the other is law enforcement and is therefore justified.

Public health is just as important as national defense and law enforcement, so it's not hard to justify some form of punishment for not getting your children vaccinated.

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"It's rather curious why you cut off the first part of Jefferson's quote."

Oh, no problem: I left it out for brevity's sake, since it had nothing to do with my point.

"Since you left it out, I'll happy complete it:"

By all means: some here may not be familiar with it.

"Why on earth would you have left out a phrase like "within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others"?"

That's easy, because it doesn't pertain to our discussion.

"That sounds an awful lot like the rights of others (i.e. society) puts limits on you, as long as it's reasonable."

Uh, no sir. NOT "i.e. society". He was specifically making the point which I made, that each individual has these described rights, individually. That is evidences by the final part of the quote, which I cited: that any law which limits the rights of the individual are tyrannical. The whole thrust was against laws being implemented which restrict individual rights. If you read the rest of his letter, and the balance of his writings, this is made quite clear numerous times.

"Conscription is an example of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the individual"

I presume you're referring to the Draft here in the US. And that is a call to national military service in time of war: it was not an infringement on an individual right but rather a call to duty during an attack on the liberties of all men. Not at all the same thing (and I don't even support the Draft, but that doesn't change the fact that it is entirely different). Possibly where you live: not here.

"or the right for police or whatnot to commandeer your property in the midst of doing their public duties."

Uh, sorry again, but that is illegal in most states, here, if not all states. As a former LEO, I can attest to that. Please disregard the movies and TV.

"Public health is just as important as national defense and law enforcement"

Actually, no, it is not, in this country: the laws are much more restrictive in that area on what is allowed, in recognition of this distinction.

Vaccines do not work. THey have one purpose. A billion dollars is made.
Think about this. A vaccine is a synthetic disease.

That is what it is.

THey inject you with this disease your not going to encounter in life while thinking the pre disease will will strengthen your immunity.

That is the foundation of a vaccine, that is the thought and reasoning.

Here is the problem.
The immunity is not strengthened through experience.

Not like muscles,if you work out you get stronger. Immunity is not like this.

Immunity is strengthened through vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and others important nourishments.

No nourishment isofund in a vaccine obviously.

The proper way to strangthen your immunity is not through the money making vaccine scam.

The proper way is to eat lots of natural healthy foods to send your immunity into over drive.

Those natural foods are made by God.

So obviously God made the natural food to suit the natural body he made for us too.

IamNazarene said:

Vaccines do not work. THey have one purpose. A billion dollars is made.
Think about this. A vaccine is a synthetic disease.

That is what it is.

THey inject you with this disease your not going to encounter in life while thinking the pre disease will will strengthen your immunity.

That is the foundation of a vaccine, that is the thought and reasoning.

Here is the problem.
The immunity is not strengthened through experience.

Not like muscles,if you work out you get stronger. Immunity is not like this.

Immunity is strengthened through vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and others important nourishments.

No nourishment isofund in a vaccine obviously.

The proper way to strangthen your immunity is not through the money making vaccine scam.

The proper way is to eat lots of natural healthy foods to send your immunity into over drive.

Those natural foods are made by God.

So obviously God made the natural food to suit the natural body he made for us too.

Click to expand...

Doh to you.

hankroberts said:

Uh, no sir. NOT "i.e. society". He was specifically making the point which I made, that each individual has these described rights, individually. That is evidences by the final part of the quote, which I cited: that any law which limits the rights of the individual are tyrannical. The whole thrust was against laws being implemented which restrict individual rights. If you read the rest of his letter, and the balance of his writings, this is made quite clear numerous times.

Click to expand...

You can't be serious....

Hey, do you know what you call a whole bunch of people with individual rights? A society.

Your rights do not outweigh theirs, especially when it comes to things like public health.

Your actions by going unvaccinated and therefore posing a threat to others will violate someone else's rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when you make them sick. In short, you don't have the right to put other people's health and lives at risk.

hankroberts said:

"Conscription is an example of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the individual"

I presume you're referring to the Draft here in the US. And that is a call to national military service in time of war: it was not an infringement on an individual right but rather a call to duty during an attack on the liberties of all men. Not at all the same thing (and I don't even support the Draft, but that doesn't change the fact that it is entirely different). Possibly where you live: not here.

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It's the exact same principle though. How is forcing someone into military service not an infringement on personal liberty or freedoms for the good of the society?

Disease limits someone's life and their pursuit of happiness. If you are responsible for spreading that disease through your own actions, then you are responsible for attacking the liberties of anyone that you have made ill.

Purposefully creating the conditions where disease can spread among your children and the people they interact with is pure neglect of their health and wellbeing. I'd be fully in favour of prosecuting parents of unvaccinated children for willful neglect if their child contracts a serious disease, or can be shown to have infected someone else with a disease (although the second would be pretty difficult to prove in most cases).

hankroberts said:

"or the right for police or whatnot to commandeer your property in the midst of doing their public duties."

Uh, sorry again, but that is illegal in most states, here, if not all states. As a former LEO, I can attest to that. Please disregard the movies and TV.

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"Most states" does not equal "all states". There is nothing illegal about the practice constitutionally, or federally.

hankroberts said:

"Public health is just as important as national defense and law enforcement"

Actually, no, it is not, in this country: the laws are much more restrictive in that area on what is allowed, in recognition of this distinction.

Click to expand...

Then your priorities are screwed up. Public health is always one of the highest concerns for any civilized country.

IamNazarene said:

Vaccines do not work. THey have one purpose. A billion dollars is made.
Think about this. A vaccine is a synthetic disease.

That is what it is.

THey inject you with this disease your not going to encounter in life while thinking the pre disease will will strengthen your immunity.

That is the foundation of a vaccine, that is the thought and reasoning.

Here is the problem.
The immunity is not strengthened through experience.

Not like muscles,if you work out you get stronger. Immunity is not like this.

Immunity is strengthened through vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and others important nourishments.

No nourishment isofund in a vaccine obviously.

The proper way to strangthen your immunity is not through the money making vaccine scam.

The proper way is to eat lots of natural healthy foods to send your immunity into over drive.

Those natural foods are made by God.

So obviously God made the natural food to suit the natural body he made for us too.

Click to expand...

Remember the story about the kid that died from smallpox last year?

Yeah, me neither.... Why? Because those vaccines that "don't work" were used to successfully eradicate smallpox.

Do you think it's just pure coincidence that the levels of a wide variety of diseases significantly dropped after vaccines were developed to combat those diseases? That's why we don't hear too many stories about kids dying from Polio anymore either.

Not surprisingly, as vaccination levels are dropping, certain diseases that were virtually eradicated 20 years ago are making a comeback as well. Is that just pure coincidence as well, or do you think there might be some causation going on here?

Seriously, if you're going to hold an opinion on something, try to get informed about what it is that you're talking about first.

Vaccines play no role in the bodies defencse against small pox.

Vaccines are not dropping and certain diseases are not rising again.
Vaccines are compulaory here in Australia and you have to get em to do school. Mind you I have met people who have no vaccines ever and are healthy.

I know what I am talkinga bout. Your talkign tos omeone who shoudl of died from disease and trust me vaccines was the time my brain tumour began.

You wanna know how to really boost your immunity properly then read this.

Nutritiona nd physical degeneration by Weston A price.

Read Jess Ainsough biograophy to hwo she beat 4 grade cancer with vege shakes.

I have not had a cold for five years now

In fact I hae no been sick for many years.
Healthy food credited.

Yeah you should research how coconut oil can reverse dementia.
Kind of the awesome thing God did for us and we do not kow about it.

IamNazarene said:

Vaccines play no role in the bodies defencse against small pox.

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I suggest you read up on your history, vaccines were used to eradicate smallpox.

IamNazarene said:

Vaccines are not dropping and certain diseases are not rising again.

Click to expand...

They are here.

IamNazarene said:

Vaccines are compulaory here in Australia and you have to get em to do school. Mind you I have met people who have no vaccines ever and are healthy.

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That's the whole point of herd immunity, if you have 100 people and 99 of them are vaccinated, the one guy who hasn't been vaccinated still has no risk of contracting a given illness, since he has nobody to catch it from.

IamNazarene said:

I know what I am talkinga bout. Your talkign tos omeone who shoudl of died from disease and trust me vaccines was the time my brain tumour began.

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Vaccines don't guard against brain cancer.

IamNazarene said:

You wanna know how to really boost your immunity properly then read this.

Nutritiona nd physical degeneration by Weston A price.

Click to expand...

What does that have to do with vaccinations?

IamNazarene said:

Read Jess Ainsough biograophy to hwo she beat 4 grade cancer with vege shakes.

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You mean this Jess Ainsough? Jess Ainscough finally admits her condition is deteriorating – Respectful Insolence

First off, she didn't have stage four cancer, nor did she beat it....

Needless to say, I can't say your sources are all that persuasive.

IamNazarene said:

I have not had a cold for five years now

In fact I hae no been sick for many years.

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Herd immunity is a beautiful thing, eh?

IamNazarene said:

Healthy food credited.

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And unjustifiably so.

IamNazarene said:

Yeah you should research how coconut oil can reverse dementia.

Kind of the awesome thing God did for us and we do not kow about it.

Click to expand...

If this was the case, then why don't all people who drink coconut oil experience a reversal in dementia? Why is this not a common therapy?

And before you start with the "big pharma" conspiracy nonsense, that's irrelevant. If this treatment actually works, then individual doctors who operate independently from the pharmaceutical companies would still be recommending it. Or is every single doctor in on the grand conspiracy as well?

Well your just brainwashed by Science.
None of it works, vaccines created my tumour not prevented it.
The whole thing is a scam.

The real road to real health is correct eating.

Read that book and you will see the detrimental effects io western diet.
Had this conversation manyt imes with the same drone minds as yourself.

Really could not care less if you do not believe healthy food heals...
I got better thigns to talk about.

Hastu Luego!

IamNazarene said:

V
Read Jess Ainsough biograophy to hwo she beat 4 grade cancer with vege shakes.

I have not had a cold for five years now

In fact I hae no been sick for many years.
Healthy food credited.

Yeah you should research how coconut oil can reverse dementia.
Kind of the awesome thing God did for us and we do not kow about it.

Click to expand...

You're dramatically simplifying matters to state that Jessica Ainsough's approach to treating her cancer was to have vegetable shakes. She has been a spokesperson, known as a "Gerson Person," for the widely discredited Gerson Institute. Though their headquarters are in San Diego, California, they are not legally permitted to operate in the United States and so they have their clinics in Mexico and Hungary, two countries with far less strenuous medical regulations. Two weeks of treatment costs $11,000 and that does not include travel expenses. It also doesn't include the ongoing, significant costs of home treatment and online consultations with their doctors for the years to come. The treatment might seem wholesomely appealing, but in actuality is immensely challenging, unpalatable, laborious. There's few diets more fiercely regimented and restrictive. Adherents purchase outrageously expensive juicing equipment and supplies through the Gerson list of recommended vendors and spend about $1200 a month on organic produce. On a daily basis they consume around 40 pounds of organic produce and very little else. Their diet is draconian and even long-term vegans have struggled to maintain it. They also spend hundreds of dollars a month on organic coffee, which they do not get to actually enjoy as the rest of us would. They go through six coffee enemas every single day. Many people have experienced gruesomely unpleasant bacterial infections, sepsis, perforated rectums and other awfulness as a result of the enemas. Coffee should only ever go into your mouth.

The minimum prescribed length of time for Gerson "therapy" is two years. It is extraordinarily difficult for most people to keep their lives on professional or academic track and enjoy any form of social life and diligently adhere to the juicing and enema schedule. Their lives orbit around it. In comparison, most conventional treatment is completed in a far shorter time period, is given on an outpatient basis, and has more predictable rates of efficacy. Gerson persons absorb all the financial costs themselves, regardless of their nationality or insurance policy. In addition to the clinic stays, equipment, coffee and produce, they buy very pricy supplements, coconut oil and a host of other products through Gerson's list of approved suppliers. And you're saying that vaccinations are the product of the of avarice of pharmaceutical companies?

If Gerson had a proven rate of efficacy perhaps it would be reasonable to support them. But they don't. They could publish proof that their therapies worked. If their patients are so enthusiastic about Gerson and delighted by the effectiveness, why don't more willingly provide Gerson with the results of their PET scans and blood work or other results from the time of diagnosis and at the date of "cure" to prove it instead of just asking uploading YouTube videos and drippy hippy blogs?

Tragically, Jess has not been healed through nutrition, and her condition continues to deteriorate. Her books sales have been strong, but her health is declining. Her mother had a treatable type of breast cancer at a relatively young age, and chose to forgo the prescribed conventional treatment in favor of Gerson. She died in 2013.

I see that the more recent post about her deterioration has already been linked. Here's another perspective regarding Jess's stance on "natural" remedies and specifically discusses immunization and the disreputable organization mentioned in the OP:
https://rosaliehilleman.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/the-wellness-warrior-on-immunisation/

The irony of your post is that cancer patients such as Jess who have fragile immune systems benefit the most from herd immunity. You and she might be in opposition to vaccinations, but people such as her depend on the rest of the community to be responsible and vaccinate to help protect their health.

As far as the efficacy of vaccinations, that's not even worth bothering to debate you about because the results have been published around the world and are indisputable. They are hugely important to both individual health and the wellbeing of society.

ETA - Have any licensed medical doctors informed you that the tumor was from your vaccinations? If so, which vaccinations?

Well maybe Jess will die soon!
Personally I would not do gersons therapy.

Healthy food healing to me is not a strict regime you undergo for years and spend thousands on .

Coffee up your but helops you obsorb it better.

Thats why you can take alcohol up your but to get drunk better. Anal intake is a better method of absorption.

Thats why the idiots shoved medicine up my ass.

Moving on.

Eating healthy and maintaining a good life is reletavily easy if you know whaty your doing.

Healthy eating is a life style not a chore. You do not do it to get well you do it to stay well.

Vaccines and medicines are a money scam and they kill you. You tink it makes you well but your natural helaing body make you well, meds hide the symptoms not fix the cause.

Listen to Bob Dylans song "wake up"...

Pharamacy comes from the Greek word Pharmekia which is correctly translated sorcery.

Sorcery is also known as deception.

Pharmacy is deception.

Yes the Illuminati has done a great job at brain washing everyone into thinking "it works!"

Wait till your loved one is on deaths bed and meds aint working....

You might consider healthy eating but probably to late by then...

If you feel like thinking for youself then try researching the effects of nutitous food on the human body.

Start with Weston price book, he has documented natural diet to dirt western diet.

Once you read that it is obvious where disease is coming from.

IamNazarene said:

Well your just brainwashed by Science.

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That's the common refrain of people who believe in woo.

I'm not brainwashed by science, I am however convinced by things which have a consistent track record of working.

IamNazarene said:

None of it works, vaccines created my tumour not prevented it.
The whole thing is a scam.

Click to expand...

I don't suppose you have any evidence to show the vaccine caused your brain tumour, do you?

IamNazarene said:

The real road to real health is correct eating.

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Then why do people who "eat correctly" still die young of the same diseases everyone else dies of in many cases?

IamNazarene said:

Read that book and you will see the detrimental effects io western diet.

Click to expand...

And yet, I have what could only be described as a western diet, and I've never had a major illness of any kind.

I got three stitches when I was three years old after falling into the corner of a table, and I got a black eye at the age of 10 after being hit with a baseball.

I'm now 32 years old, and those are literally the worst medical problems I've ever had.

So, if a "western diet" directly causes all these detrimental effects and illnesses, why haven't I actually gotten sick at any point?

IamNazarene said:

Had this conversation manyt imes with the same drone minds as yourself.

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I suggest you look in the mirror.

If you actually demonstrate the claims you are making, I'm perfectly willing to accept them. The problem is you can't, and any claim you've made so far has been demonstrated to be incorrect.

My act of not accepting your claims is not due to having a "drone mind", it's because you can't provide any good reason to accept your claims.

On the other hand, we've shown a number of compelling reasons why your beliefs are wrong and yet you soldier on with those beliefs despite what the evidence shows. If you want the definition of a drone mind, that's it.

IamNazarene said:

Really could not care less if you do not believe healthy food heals...
I got better thigns to talk about.

Hastu Luego!

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There's no question that eating healthy can certainly benefit you, however there's no evidence it does things like reverse dementia and cure cancer as you claimed. That's the problem here.

IamNazarene said:

Well maybe Jess will die soon!
Personally I would not do gersons therapy.

Healthy food healing to me is not a strict regime you undergo for years and spend thousands on .

Coffee up your but helops you obsorb it better.

Thats why you can take alcohol up your but to get drunk better. Anal intake is a better method of absorption.

Thats why the idiots shoved medicine up my ass.

Moving on.

Eating healthy and maintaining a good life is reletavily easy if you know whaty your doing.

Healthy eating is a life style not a chore. You do not do it to get well you do it to stay well.

Vaccines and medicines are a money scam and they kill you. You tink it makes you well but your natural helaing body make you well, meds hide the symptoms not fix the cause.

Listen to Bob Dylans song "wake up"...

Pharamacy comes from the Greek word Pharmekia which is correctly translated sorcery.

Sorcery is also known as deception.

Pharmacy is deception.

Yes the Illuminati has done a great job at brain washing everyone into thinking "it works!"

Wait till your loved one is on deaths bed and meds aint working....

You might consider healthy eating but probably to late by then...

If you feel like thinking for youself then try researching the effects of nutitous food on the human body.

Start with Weston price book, he has documented natural diet to dirt western diet.

Once you read that it is obvious where disease is coming from.

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CyRiwED7s8

If no one eats correctly, what track record is made? We are all to busy jamming crap down our throats from the supermarket.

The track record for healthy eating doe not exists because no one does it.

I started getting monstrous head aches at the time of vaccine.
I had a brain tumour for 11 years.
God let me live and here I am to speak.

The ones who claim to eat right still gobble down chocolates....

Eating right takes great self sacrifice.

The human bopdy is very awesome, not ever one is effected by major illness but the western diet will increase your chances of getting in dire straights.

I can nto make any claims you have to eat healthy to know it.

No one does...

Trust me eating correct whgolesome food optimises everything. IT even make syou a happier person.
It does your emotions, your fitness andspikes your immunity...
I mean I do not get sick, no colds nothing...

I will never stop believing in healthy eating I know it is the veryt hing that stops my brain tumour returning!

IamNazarene said:

If no one eats correctly, what track record is made? We are all to busy jamming crap down our throats from the supermarket.

The track record for healthy eating doe not exists because no one does it.

Click to expand...

If there's no track record, then how can you possibly justify what you claim to know? You're admitting yourself that there's no evidence for your beliefs.

IamNazarene said:

I started getting monstrous head aches at the time of vaccine.
I had a brain tumour for 11 years.
God let me live and here I am to speak.

Click to expand...

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you got a vaccine around the same time you started experiencing headaches does not mean that the vaccine caused your tumour.

Do you have anything else to try to prove your claim?

IamNazarene said:

The ones who claim to eat right still gobble down chocolates....

Eating right takes great self sacrifice.

The human bopdy is very awesome, not ever one is effected by major illness but the western diet will increase your chances of getting in dire straights.

I can nto make any claims you have to eat healthy to know it.

No one does...

Trust me eating correct whgolesome food optimises everything. IT even make syou a happier person.
It does your emotions, your fitness andspikes your immunity...
I mean I do not get sick, no colds nothing...

I will never stop believing in healthy eating I know it is the veryt hing that stops my brain tumour returning!

Click to expand...

But you just finished saying there's no track record to demonstrate this, so how do you know?

How do you know your brain tumour is not gone and never to return, and your diet has nothing to do with it being held in check?

You're tossing out a ton of claims, but they're just bald assertions, can you back up any of this with anything tangible?

If there's no track record, then how can you possibly justify what you claim to know? You're admitting yourself that there's no evidence for your beliefs.

Well it just takes heaps f reading about nutrition.
You should read the book price wrote in 1930, yes it is very old information this eating healthy concept.
Let food be thy medicine was once said by a ver smart man....

Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you got a vaccine around the same time you started experiencing headaches does not mean that the vaccine caused your tumour.

Common sense I think, just know...

Do you have anything else to try to prove your claim?

It takes much research from many different places, you can put the peices together in time.

How do you know your brain tumour is not gone and never to return, and your diet has nothing to do with it being held in check?|

I know it is gone because I know what it feels like and I know what it does to me.
I know when I have it I throw up a lot and it feels like a rock on my brain. I know how it effects my ability to move...


I just know it and i also know how healthy eating make me feel, I have not felt this good my entire life.

No claims, I just know.

Dave Ellis said:

I'd be fully in favour of prosecuting parents of unvaccinated children for willful neglect if their child contracts a serious disease, or can be shown to have infected someone else with a disease (although the second would be pretty difficult to prove in most cases).

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There was just a debate on CNN about whether parents who do not vaccinate their children should be held liable if that choice leads to others being sickened:
Should parents be liable for unvaccinated children? - CNN Video


This article is relevant to that discussion:

Mom: Family that refused vaccination put my baby in quarantine - CNN.com

It's an unseasonably warm day in Oakland, California, a perfect morning for Jennifer and Dave Simon to take their baby, Livia, out for a walk. But her stroller sits idle, and Livia is stuck inside the house -- as she has been for nearly a month.

Livia isn't sick, but doctors fear she might become the 53rd person to contract measles in a recent Disneyland outbreak. Now she's in a 28-day quarantine, because of a family that refused to vaccinate their child.

It started January 2, when the Simons took Livia, who had a cold, to the pediatrician. Two days later, the doctor's office called to say that a child with measles had been in the office that same day.

The Simons feared the worst.

One of the most contagious viruses on Earth, measles can hang in the air or on surfaces for hours. If she'd contracted the disease, Livia could become deaf or even die.

"We were really freaking out and really worried," Jennifer Simon said.

Then the Simons learned from a doctor that the child in the doctor's office had contracted measles because his parents had refused vaccination.

Livia, just 6 months old, is too young to be vaccinated.

"I'm angry," Simon said. "I've been upset that someone else's personal choice has impacted us so much."

In Alameda County, where Simon lives, nine infants were in quarantine as of Tuesday night because of the measles outbreak, a spokeswoman said.

Simon said she hopes families who opt not to immunize their children realize the full impact of their decision.

"Their choice endangered my child," she said.

She points out that vaccine refusers rely on other people to protect their children. It's called herd immunity. If the rest of the community is immune to disease, it helps keep the disease from spreading to those who are unvaccinated.

"You're basically relying on society but not giving back," she said.

Livia's quarantine ends Friday.

A happy baby, she doesn't seem to mind being at home, but it's disrupted the Simons' life and cost them money, as the couple had to miss work for several days and then bring Jennifer's mother in from Houston to stay home with Livia.

When asked what she would say to parents of the unvaccinated child, she said she would first ask whether their child was doing OK.

Then she would ask them a question: "Hey, you guys, what do you think about vaccines now?"

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When I was in France last autumn I caught snippets about the prosecution of parents who refused obligatory vaccinations. French couple who refused vaccinations for their children go to highest court | Society | The Guardian

On Thursday the French health minister, Marisol Touraine, warned of a worrying and growing defiance against vaccinations.

“Vaccines save lives, and we mustn’t forget that. There’s no particular reason to be concerned about the additives,” Touraine said.

She added: “Freedom stops where public health begins.”

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