Her Body, Her Choice: Woman on Trial for Terminating 6 Pregnancies

[Mr. Ripley]

I think unwanted pregnancies cause more harm to all parties involved and society more than the harm caused to the child.. fetus.. whatever.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I think unwanted pregnancies cause more harm to all parties involved and society more than the harm caused to the child.. fetus.. whatever.

The same is true for the freeing of slaves and school desegregation.

Society was all nice and orderly when we had peasants and slaves too.

I think this topic really demonstrates the number one issue with society, which is the total objectification of the human person. People have no dignity or value, they are just tools for society. We are de-evolving and no one sees it. We are turning back to animals. Other human beings are just competitors or something to be used, rather than part of the community of pepole.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Some of the comments here are interesting.

It's funny that we might say that when the baby is inside the mother, it is her body. Yet, when it leaves her body, it is suddenly a new person - as though everything it was the moment before was meaningless.

We know that the baby was never part of her body. At the very moment of conception, the child existed as a cell with a unique genome, with its own DNA. People know the reality, I just don't understand why killing fetuses is so important to society that we like to delude ourselves this way. Do we hate people that much? Do we place no value on human life, is everything for show?

 

[Mr. Ripley]

The same is true for the freeing of slaves and school desegregation.

Society was all nice and orderly when we had peasants and slaves too.

Well, at least from a more progressive perspective, the idea boils down to, generally speaking, the unwanted child will grow up within an environment of neglect. It does express the (unrealistic) hope for an "end of poverty," but I think there is some truth to it. OTOH, who's to say that even a life of neglect cannot be a happy life? I think we tend to conflate happiness with economic prosperity which isn't really accurate. Happiness and unhappiness are pretty subjective and seem to strike at random. From a population control perspective, more and more people will result in greater poverty as the limits of natural resources become a more realistic threat. Shortage of food, basic necessities, and the like will definitely have an impact on well-being and happiness, though, so I can understand that. Situations of widespread and insurmountable poverty in which suffering is a painful and slow process before death via starvation or illness or the like is pretty dreadful prospect.

I think this topic really demonstrates the number one issue with society, which is the total objectification of the human person. People have no dignity or value, they are just tools for society. We are de-evolving and no one sees it. We are turning back to animals. Other human beings are just competitors or something to be used, rather than part of the community of pepole.

Society in general or this society in particular? When have people never been used as tools? I can't tell if you're criticizing the past (mentioning slavery), or praising it?

 

[kiwimac]

Fetuses are potential human-life as such their well-being should NEVER trump the well-being of the mother. Is this a problem for you?

 

[Mr. Ripley]

What makes it potential? Potential implies the possibility of a transformation from one state of being to another. There's no such transformation, though, AFAIK. Is this a metaphysical transformation or something?

 

[Verv]

Fetuses are potential human-life as such their well-being should NEVER trump the well-being of the mother. Is this a problem for you?

So is a baby a potential toddler, a toddler a potential preteen, a preteen a potential teenager, etc.?

When does something stop being 'potential?'

Kiwimac, let's get metaphysical.

What is the essence of a human being? What makes something human?

Are you going to start coming up with arbitrary temporal definitions of what a human is?

If the truth of a substance, of an essence, is measured temporally, does that mean that every stage of life we enter we become a metaphysically different substance?

So I was an entirely different entity when I was a teenager or a fetus?

Many people define a substance as being a collection of events -- if that is the case, all human beings are the sum entirety of the events that were occurring and without the developmental events in the womb you would not be here.

An entity exists upon conception, and that entity shares all of the chromosomes and DNA that you have. It is merely at a different stage of experience.

How does this differentiate it from you?

Technically, we could erase 3-4 month year old babies from this world, or even 2 year old children, and these would have no real memories nor any real abstract concept of what happened. They have no connections to society other than through their immediate parental units.

This could be as painless and as meaningless towards the rest of the world as an abortion.

 

[Mr. Ripley]

Yeah, that's kind of a problem. Personhood is really nothing but a series of ongoing transformations. We exist, develop vital organs, become newborns, children, young adults, adults, seniors, and then corpses. There's not really a change in being; more like a series of ongoing transformations. I am different than a teenager but I am not really the same today as I was yesterday, either.

I can understand making some sort of arbitrary distinction based on a particular stage, such as when the fetus develops a heart or a brain, for example, but there doesn't seem to be any notable change between a few days prior to birth and a few days after birth.

 

[LyraJean]

What law turned me into a senior citizen?

It's not a law it's a dividing line. Just like when a baby is still in utero it is still considered a fetus and when it is born it is called a baby. If you consider an unborn baby a full-fledged human being then you'll have to investigate every single miscarriage as a murder. Do you really want that to happen?

 

[Dark_Lite]

So aborted before they were birthed and then subsequently murdered? Logic Fail. Try again.

That does not answer my question.

The question was: If these babies were aborted (say one or two days before they were born) instead of birthed and killed, would that be ethically ok?

 

[LyraJean]

That does not answer my question.

The question was: If these babies were aborted (say one or two days before they were born) instead of birthed and killed, would that be ethically ok?

At least here in the U.S., I can't speak about where these murders took place, there are stringent laws about performing a third trimester abortion. Like they can occur if the woman's life is in peril. In this case since the woman did not have sextuplets but one at a time. I would think she would have a hard time finding a doctor to perform an abortion one or two days before she was to give birth.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

For no reason? Are we talking about a specific instance here? Because if you are referring to the post of the mom who trusted God to keep her and her baby alive then there is an absolute reason! THE BABY'S LIFE! If she had thought "rationally" her 16 year old boy would have been dead. I admire that women! That women is blessed by God!

I have never heard of Christians finding biblical backing to what you mentioned about the organ things so I don't really know and won't get into it.

You find it irrational because you only see the here and now. You are living for today! My goal is heaven I live today with joy and thanksgiving knowing that one day all this sin and pain will be gone!

Trusting god to keep your ectopic fetus alive (and not kill you as well) is as stupid as snake handling churches trusting god to keep them alive when a rattlesnake bites them, or Christian Scientist parents trusting god to heal their children who end up dying of something treatable.

When you eschew common sense for your religion, you're a danger to yourself, and more importantly, your children.

 

[brightmorningstar]

If life begins at conception then it does matter whether the life is terminated or not, it doesnt matter whether suffering is involved. If however suffering is the criteria then one coudl argue any person could be terminated in a way that doesnt cause them any suffering.
To me its obvious life starts at conception and gestation so a woman has no more right to terminate her baby than anyone else has any right.

 

[BlessingUAngel]

Would you force others through law not to eat meat or harm animals?

Now why would I do that?

 

[BlessingUAngel]

Trusting god to keep your ectopic fetus alive (and not kill you as well) is as stupid as snake handling churches trusting god to keep them alive when a rattlesnake bites them, or Christian Scientist parents trusting god to heal their children who end up dying of something treatable.

When you eschew common sense for your religion, you're a danger to yourself, and more importantly, your children.

As Christians, we can't expect unbelievers to understand such [strong] faith in God. Why is that, you ask? Because such faith only comes from trusting God, which is contrary to what unbelievers do. The Bible says this, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). You can shun it and criticize it all you want, but it doesn't negate its truth. The teaching of the Bible is that spiritual things can only be known by a direct work of God within someone's heart, through His Spirit.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

As Christians, we can't expect unbelievers to understand such [strong] faith in God. Why is that, you ask? Because such faith only comes from trusting God, which is contrary to what unbelievers do. The Bible says this, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). You can shun it and criticize it all you want, but it doesn't negate its truth. The teaching of the Bible is that spiritual things can only be known by a direct work of God within someone's heart, through His Spirit.

I know Christians with the opinion that people only trusting in god to heal their kids are morons. They would say those people misunderstand the Bible completely. So there are believers that agree with me. And thankfully, for the most part U.S. courts are on my side as well...

 

[Mr. Ripley]

I just heard from someone I know that she had done autopsies on neglected childrens' brains and they weighed 25% less on average than normal brains. I don't know how applicable that is to make widespread judgments but it's a little scary nevertheless.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Now why would I do that?

Because the pro-life argument is forcing women not to have an abortion/kill their foetus. Personally I see no difference between killing animals and killing a foetus, especially as the animals are self aware and can feel, yet the foetus (up to 20 weeks or so) cannot.

 

[BlessingUAngel]

I know Christians with the opinion that people only trusting in God to heal their kids are morons. They would say those people misunderstand the Bible completely. So there are believers that agree with me. And thankfully, for the most part U.S. courts are on my side as well...

Well then, I guess I'm a moron, in the eyes of the world at least, which is just fine with me. I don't need the approval of men or permission to have faith in my God. I know that when my life is over and I stand before God in judgment, my sins are forgiven, being justified in His sight through the blood of His Son, my Savior, Christ Jesus. I will live my life, with or without the approval of others, in submission to His Lordship. I will live my life to glorify Him, to serve Him, and to spread the message of the gospel to this lost and dying world.

I can honestly say that nothing in all my life compares with the joy of knowing Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord. If the world calls me a fool for that or for my faith and trust in Him, then so be it! I'll wear it like a badge of honor. I'll be a fool for Christ any day. Long story short, my trust and faith in ultimately grounded in God. I won't be my trust or faith in some doctor or in any particular medical treatment. I trust God to heal me, whether it be through sheer faith or through medicine. To be completely forthright, I truly admire any Christian who is willing to come out from the world (no compromising, no conforming) and be separate for God, to be used by Him for His glory. The world can conspire against God and His people all it wants, but in the end, God wins. He is the ultimate Judge over all mankind, whether mankind likes it or not. God reigns supreme and He will judge the world in righteousness.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: 'Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.'" 1 Corinthians 1:27-31

 

[SuperPhil]

When you eschew common sense for your religion, you're a danger to yourself, and more importantly, your children.

I actually agree with that statement. My Lord gives me wisdom to go about my day and to make decisions. When people start claiming that their god told them to not seek medical help, then there is a problem here. My God would NEVER give me such a commandment. It's not biblical.

What that woman did was NOT of that circumstance. The baby had a chance to live! She trusted that, since the Lord provided her with the baby in the first place, that everything would work out. If that means she dies and the baby lives then so be it. How many mothers would be willing to sacrifice their life for their children? That 16 year old boy is a walking testimony of the grace of God.

To say that she was void of common sense when she made that VERY tough decision is disheartening and erroneous!

I don't claim a religion. I have a relationship with Christ. Just like I have a relationship with my brothers and sisters.