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[RedRaven]

Thanks for your response. I do know the story well. Let me see if I can define where my issue arises. Your post heavily talked of spiritual warfare. How does that spiritual warfare manifest into physical ailments? Satan is not more powerful than God. Take the story of Job. Satan couldn't touch Job without God's permission. I guess what I don't understand is why God allows Satan to work in the ways he does. He knows the outcome it has on his children. They are good enough at not being perfect without the help of Satan. I've heard for a long time this warfare would end soon. People since Jesus' resurrection have believed it's coming soon. How long will God allow his children to be the casualties in his war?

 

[ArteestX]

Thanks for explaining the title. In the hymn it says, `spirit of life come unto me'. So I was actually wondering what the entity is that is being asked to come. Can you clarify please?

As with most things UU, it means whatever you think it means. Just as the concept of God changes with every person, just as the concept of Christian message of Jesus changes with every person, "spirit of life" means different things to different people.

To me, it is not an entity but rather a sense of joy and gratitude. I think of when my 2 year old nephew comes and visits my house, and the place just fills with a new spirit, a spirit of life in many ways. That is the feeling and sense that I think about and wish to come to me when I sing that hymn. That is the spirit I want to remember and be a part of my life as much as possible, that feeling of gratitude that makes you both want to embrace and appreciate your past and also gives you strength and vision to go do new things ("roots hold me close, wings set me free" my favorite line in the hymn). That's what it means to me. But ask 10 other UUs and you'll probably get 14 different answers.

It's bad enough when people break the rules that are in place, but it would be a million fold worse if there were no way to enforce rules or no rules at all (God forbid).

Is God responsible for making the rules (about who goes to heaven and hell) that are in place? Or is humanity making the rules? Or someone else?

Therefore, God does not impose the punishment/suffering, but rather sets laws in place to try to save us from it.

The way it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the basic story is this: God created a perfect world, humans rejected this plan (with a little help from Satan), introduced sin into the world, and that's why 6,000 years later some babies are born with diabetes and other genetic diseases, but accepting God/Jesus takes away your sin and ensures everlasting peace. Is this somewhat correct, or have I glossed over something?

P.S. I am sincerely appreciating the frank yet respectful we way are interacting and sharing our opinions here.

I am a big believer that people can have fundamental disagreements and share different ideas. And it's ok, because I know that for all the wonderful, brilliantly logical and well-conceived thoughts I have in my head, I am but a flawed, finite, mortal human who is most likely wrong about many many things. ......but not about what we're talking about right now, though.

 

[MLEN]

How does that spiritual warfare manifest into physical ailments?

There is a verse in the Bible that says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Some may believe that this just means that if we sin against God then we will die (and not receive the eternal life that Jesus Christ offers). But I personally believe that it means this and more. That it speaks of how sin brings devastation and death to the world on a whole as long as sin still exists in the world. For example, from the day we are born, we gradually get older, then elderly, then die. Another example: From the moment a piece of fresh fruit is separated from a tree, that piece of fruit starts to lose essential vitamins, then begins to decay, then rots and then returns to the earth. Therefore, nothing on this earth (while the earth remains in its sinful state) can live eternally.

Death, devastation, illness, sorrow, pain, suffering, selfishness, hatred, etc....are all effects of sin. They are symptoms of a sick and dying world.

Satan is not more powerful than God. Take the story of Job. Satan couldn't touch Job without God's permission.

I totally agree with you that God is more powerful than satan. Or else, how could God have stopped satan from taking Job's life? - (which satan so eagerly wanted to do). However, the story tells us that satan has the ability to inflict pain and suffering. We humans also have the ability to inflict pain and suffering (e.g., when we lie maliciously about someone, pyhsically abuse someone, malign another's character). We make the choice to do it. Satan does the same, and attempts to influence us to continue in such horrible behavior.

Yes, God could force us all to serve him by taking away our free choice, and sin would be eradicated, and the earth would be free of that sin that devastates. But then we would not be serving him out of love, but out of fear. And loving out of fear is not truly loving at all.

I reiterate that the Bible tells us that the 3 things that can outlast anything are faith, hope and love. And that the greatest of these is love. (I Corinthians 13:13). It also says that God is love (I John 4:8). What a reassuring revelation that God is the very essence of the greatest thing that outlasts anything else we could ever know or hope for! (I exclaim not to shout, but for the joy it brings to my very soul).

Then why did God allow Job's suffering? I believe one reason is because he knew Job. He knew Job would come through it, because Job was already a firm believer in him. He knew that Job's victory over satan's discouraging darts would be a testimony to all Christians throughout the centuries that if Job could win over, so can you.

I remember going through a `Job experience' for a period lasting over 3 months. I remember becoming ill, losing weight, appetite and sleep and not one doctor could tell me what was wrong. All the man-made tests showed that I was in perfectly good health. But I was not and I knew it. My prayers went from prayers for healing, to prayers for knowing what was ailing me, to prayers for understanding God's reason for it, to prayers of anger and finally to prayers for total submission to God's will no matter what the outcome. I was broken and I was desperate but I was determined not to give up on God because I knew that this was a sinful world riddled with disease. And that if I had to lose my life on earth, then there was no way that I wanted to lose the eternal life promised to me after death. Drawing on God's strength and the story of Job got me through those rough times as I looked forward to a reward promised in the end to those who remain faithful to God no matter what satan throws their way. Job was healed and got a reward on earth. Jesus died on the cross and got a reward in heaven. Thus, trusting in these two accounts, there was no way that I could lose whether I lived or died.

BTW, in the end God healed me and then a month later I became pregnant with my sweet daughter (truly a gift from God).

Sin brings devastation and death. Satan not only wants to perpetuate this sin and devastation, but ultimately wants to destroy us all (I Peter 5:8).
For Christians, he wants us to give up hope in the only one who can save us from the effects of sin. For non-believers he wants them to never know this hope even exists.

I guess what I don't understand is why God allows Satan to work in the ways he does. He knows the outcome it has on his children. They are good enough at not being perfect without the help of Satan. I've heard for a long time this warfare would end soon. People since Jesus' resurrection have believed it's coming soon. How long will God allow his children to be the casualties in his war?

Your words here copy the psalmist when he essentially asked God how long will wickedness [sin, the effects of sin] go on? (Psalm 94:3). This is the same question Christians everywhere ask as we tire of seeing and experiencing the ills that plague this world we live in, but trust the God we believe in to come and eradicate sin soon. We endure to the end not only because of the Bible's track record for accurately predicting historical outcomes that God said would happen, but mainly because of the personal experiences that have occurred in our lives as we have walked with God and seen his hand of mercy, grace and love at work. These experiences have built our faith in him and his promises of a better future.

The exact day and hour of Christ's return to purify and make this earth new and sin-free (II Peter 3:13) for all who trust in him is known only to God (Mark 13:32). But the Bible does say that it will happen:

"the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10).

It also says that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4). Therefore, this message of salvation from sin through Christ "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14).

There are other verses that speak of the signs of the time before Christ's return, but I have already taken up too much space (which I humbly hope will not be held against me).

Many Blessings.

 

[MLEN]

ArteestX ,

I have a better understanding of the spirit of life now. Thanks so much.

I do believe that God has a character of decency and order and therefore created human beings with order/rules that would keep them happy, safe and healthy. Although we hardly attain to God's level, we flawed humans make rules for our children for these very reasons. We love them, so we want what's best for them.

There is a verse in the Bible that essentially says that the thing which creates is wiser than the thing which is created (Isaiah 45:9 -12). This speaks of God, his wisdom and his creative powers. As Christians we believe that God's judgment and rules are good, and just and perfect. He loves us all and would not want anyone to suffer or die. Contrary to rules that bring life and happiness are rules which bring death and sorrow. Christians long for the day when we have a chance to live in a world where only the rules which bring life and happiness are being willingly followed by all.

We choose life or death when we choose to serve God or not. Then one might say that God is a tyrant who says my way or the highway. The dictionary would describe a tyrant as a cruel and oppressive ruler. But God is love, he is neither cruel nor oppressive. His rules are meant to ultimately set men free from sin, cruelty and oppression. So who wouldn't want to serve a creator who's rules are for their (the creatures') very own best good? Unless of course they do not believe that the creator really loves them or knows or wants what is best for them, but rather that they know better than their creator. Or maybe they just cannot fathom such deep and giving love in a world that is riddled with hatred and selfishness.

I would basically agree up to the point where sin was introduced into the world... then continue with: `the effects of sin is such that it brings devastation on a whole (please see my last post to redraven). In this world, we are connected and accountable to one another whether we want to admit it or not.

We are flawed (with sin) because our first ancestor was after he fell into temptation. Neither he, we, nor any of our other earthly ancestors after Adam have been able to free/cleanse us from our flaws/sins. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). So either we would die for our own sins or someone else would have to. But then who would die for that `someone else's' sins? - unless, of course that person had no sin. So God had a plan to send one, Jesus Christ, who was flawless/sinless to die for our sins. So that through him could be stopped the sin=death penalty in its tracks. Hence Christians believe that by confessing to God that we are flawed sinners and accepting that Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin, we will have eternal life in a one day sinless world.

I focused on this same issue of salvation from sin in the `For New Christians' section of CF under the topic `What is Salvation?' - original thread by JM - where I entered an extensive list of scriptural references (for those who don't mind growing old while reading them )

"I am a big believer that people can have fundamental disagreements and share different ideas."

God created us all as individual thinking human beings, so I can totally respect that.

On another note, could you please explain the tenets of UU, as I have never heard of it before?

 

[ArteestX]

I do believe that God has a character of decency and order and therefore created human beings with order/rules that would keep them happy, safe and healthy. Although we hardly attain to God's level, we flawed humans make rules for our children for these very reasons. We love them, so we want what's best for them.

I guess my main response is that when it comes to the rules of heaven and hell that God has established, I think it sounds like a set up. If a parent establishes a room for a five year old full of knives, chainsaws, and poisons, then yes the parent can say "I have a plan for you, believe me and trust in me or else you won't be safe" and yes the child has free will to follow or not follow the plan. But it's still seems bizarre to set up the room that way to begin with. And if a child screws up and permanently cuts off their arm? To say it was their choice and they didn't follow the plan is sidestepping the basic point. It seem disingenuous to expect a small child to have the wisdom and understanding to get it 100% correct.

The rules of heaven and hell aren't understood (otherwise there'd be no debate about that) and humans do not have the wisdom and understanding of God, yet we are expected to get this completely 100% correct or we doom ourselves to be tortured for eternity?

On another note, could you please explain the tenets of UU, as I have never heard of it before?

First of all, I am not an official Unitarian Universalism representative, so take what I say with that in mind. UU is a non-creedal/non-dogmatic church, meaning there is no specific creed we all agree to. You don't have to believe X, Y, and Z about God or Jesus. UU is full of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, Pagans, and other religions, although our roots are in Christianity so we generally have that style of service (I won't bore you with history unless you really want it). But what we all do agree on are the 7 Principles:

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Why would atheists and others go to church? Because all humans are spiritual beings that must deal with morals and ethics. UU is a place where you can be supported in your beliefs and also challenged. That's the basic idea. I can go into more detail if you want, but that's the high-level explanation.

**edit: MLEN, I got your message but you are not set up to accept responses. I wish your child a wonderful school year, and let me know if you need any help with the science class.

 

[silscr]

I'm Christian but one of my best friends isn't a complete believer. She believes in Jesus but doesn't believe there is a God who created everything in seven days. Two days ago she asked me two questions: "if there is a God then why are some people poor and why are some people rich?" "Why do some get cancer and why are some healthy?"

I didn't know how to answer her, what would ya'll have said?

I also told her to read the book of Job because he struggled with his faith, he questioned God. Do you guys think that was a good idea?

Hi Countray (I like your name btw)

God tells each one of us in His Word that we acquire things by our own hands (Rich/Poor). But all GOOD things Come from God, and all that is bad/EVIL comes from Man; because God is Good and Man is not. That is all we need Him as our Saviour.

Some people are doing well in their health because they are eating healthy. Jesus/GOD asked all of us to Fast. Fasting cleans out our bodies. The Healthy person is fasting in the sense that they are eating good things for their bodies that help clean their bodies out. Just as we clean our cars when they begin to not want to continue running, that is what we need to do with our bodies as well (when our bodies begin to get sick/stop functioning properly).

I appreciate all who are reading and Thank you Countray for your question.
Have a good day

silscr