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[Kentoro]

I was not sure where this question belonged. I belive it went in ask a chaplain, but im not sure if these forums are still being used, as is the case for quite a few forums ive been to.
Somone posed questions to me in a debate, that have shaken my foundation. My problem lies here. If Jesus said, turn the other cheek. To basically show them your other cheek, so they can slap it. To feed them, and give them housing, and have no cross feelings toward them. In the story, where im not sure which person it was, someone came to arrest jesus and the person cut off the romans ear. Jesus said no, he healed the man and allowed himself to be arrested. Barabus who was chosen over jesus, was supposed to be like a revolutionary and said to fight back against the romans. But he was wrong.
The thing that plagues me is this. The person I was debating against said that christians were supposed to allow themselves to be killed. They were doing the right thing and that there was nothing wrong with being killed as long as they were good in their faith and that they followed jesus's way with being killed, instead of fighting back. My question that is hurting me, is why didn't all of the christians in that time, line up in front of the romans and start quoting prayers and confirming thier faith. After all christians were wiped out, the world would be left to the heathens and everyone that believed in the gospel would be in heaven. Instead, the way they fought back, was by telling other people and having children.
Which leads me to today. With all of the bombings and the other terrorists going around with the intent to kill all christians, shouldnt we be turning the other cheek, should we just rebuild the towers. Should we welcome them into our country and put no penalty on the killing of us. The only thing I could counter with, is that we would not be around to witness and allow future generations to hear the gospel. But I felt defeated. The idea of what we are doing in iraq, and afghanistan is completely against what jesus said? I dont understand. plz help.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I was not sure where this question belonged. I belive it went in ask a chaplain, but im not sure if these forums are still being used, as is the case for quite a few forums ive been to.
Somone posed questions to me in a debate, that have shaken my foundation. My problem lies here. If Jesus said, turn the other cheek. To basically show them your other cheek, so they can slap it. To feed them, and give them housing, and have no cross feelings toward them. In the story, where im not sure which person it was, someone came to arrest jesus and the person cut off the romans ear. Jesus said no, he healed the man and allowed himself to be arrested. Barabus who was chosen over jesus, was supposed to be like a revolutionary and said to fight back against the romans. But he was wrong.
The thing that plagues me is this. The person I was debating against said that christians were supposed to allow themselves to be killed. They were doing the right thing and that there was nothing wrong with being killed as long as they were good in their faith and that they followed jesus's way with being killed, instead of fighting back. My question that is hurting me, is why didn't all of the christians in that time, line up in front of the romans and start quoting prayers and confirming thier faith. After all christians were wiped out, the world would be left to the heathens and everyone that believed in the gospel would be in heaven. Instead, the way they fought back, was by telling other people and having children.
Which leads me to today. With all of the bombings and the other terrorists going around with the intent to kill all christians, shouldnt we be turning the other cheek, should we just rebuild the towers. Should we welcome them into our country and put no penalty on the killing of us. The only thing I could counter with, is that we would not be around to witness and allow future generations to hear the gospel. But I felt defeated. The idea of what we are doing in iraq, and afghanistan is completely against what jesus said? I dont understand. plz help.

The Jews, Greeks and Romans (and others) became Christians because of the society and culture that the Christians developed and lived by.

It is history.

We'll get to who it was that screwed some of that up later.

Hint: Europeans.

 

[MorkandMindy]

That is a very difficult and very important problem faced by any peaceful people, the Buddhists come to mind as did the Native Americans.


Within a culture the more peaceful types have fewer domestic problems, wives and husbands killing each other, and fewer deaths as a result of fights between tribes.

But when that culture meets a much more aggressive one, it loses.

 

[b&wpac4]

The Jews, Greeks and Romans (and others) became Christians because of the society and culture that the Christians developed and lived by.

It is history.

We'll get to who it was that screwed some of that up later.

Hint: Europeans.

Hint: A lot of Jews never became Christians.

 

[Axioma]

Of course not. You don't think Jesus was a hippie peacenik, do you? Jesus was a manly Republican who liked nothing more than to shoot his shotgun and blast brown people.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Hint: A lot of Jews never became Christians.

Fact: ALL of the Christians were once Jews.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Fact: ALL of the Christians were once Jews.

Please don't post nonsense you may confuse the OP

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Of course not. You don't think Jesus was a hippie peacenik, do you? Jesus was a manly Republican who liked nothing more than to shoot his shotgun and blast brown people.

Hippie peaceniks: Hundreds of millions, dead by their hands and actions.

Republicans: Thousands of terrorists, dead by their hands and actions.

Jesus: Followed by people that are called Christians.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Please don't post nonsense you may confuse the OP

Me, a liberal or progressive? Never.

I'll stick with my accurate history.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Fact: ALL of the Christians were once Jews.

Please don't post nonsense you may confuse the OP

Me, a liberal or progressive? Never.

I'll stick with my accurate history.

That Paul, apostle to the gentiles, converted only Jews?

 

[Kentoro]

if you cannot relate to my question posted above, plz quit arguing over your selfish quarrel, and post the real problem that you have in a different thread. I do not mean to be rude, but when people are reading my post, they are going to see your bickering, and forget that my question asks if how we do things as christians today is correct, in terms of the new testament. (Currently we are in an aggresive stance in a country fighting for our beliefs and getting vengeance, the main one being religion. But doesnt that go against the teachings, Are you supposed to "fight" at all.) In all actuality, no matter what you call it, we are in a different country killing people. Maybe it is self defense, but are we not supposed to defend ourselves?

 

[b&wpac4]

Fact: ALL of the Christians were once Jews.

Actually, if you look into history, you are correct in that the early followers were Jews. But after a generation passed and Jesus didn't return, the Jewish movement sort of fell away and was replaced by the Gentile movement that Paul spread so well. This is the one that would later incorporate so much of the pagan influences that were around at the time, such as the holiday of Easter.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Fact: ALL of the Christians were once Jews.

There's a Roman centurion's family and at least a couple of Samaritan women who testify to the falseness of your claim.

Indeed, these accounts bear witness to the fact that Jesus responded to anyone who was seeking wholeness and new life.

These are examples of Jesus reaching out to "the other." In regards to the OP, I think these stories delve deeper into what it means to open ourselves to one another, no matter what our differences are. It's risky, yes indeed. But it's the Way of the Cross, and the Way of Love. It means we might even lose our life.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I was not sure where this question belonged. I belive it went in ask a chaplain, but im not sure if these forums are still being used, as is the case for quite a few forums ive been to.
Somone posed questions to me in a debate, that have shaken my foundation. My problem lies here. If Jesus said, turn the other cheek. To basically show them your other cheek, so they can slap it. To feed them, and give them housing, and have no cross feelings toward them. In the story, where im not sure which person it was, someone came to arrest jesus and the person cut off the romans ear. Jesus said no, he healed the man and allowed himself to be arrested. Barabus who was chosen over jesus, was supposed to be like a revolutionary and said to fight back against the romans. But he was wrong.
The thing that plagues me is this. The person I was debating against said that christians were supposed to allow themselves to be killed. They were doing the right thing and that there was nothing wrong with being killed as long as they were good in their faith and that they followed jesus's way with being killed, instead of fighting back. My question that is hurting me, is why didn't all of the christians in that time, line up in front of the romans and start quoting prayers and confirming thier faith. After all christians were wiped out, the world would be left to the heathens and everyone that believed in the gospel would be in heaven. Instead, the way they fought back, was by telling other people and having children.
Which leads me to today. With all of the bombings and the other terrorists going around with the intent to kill all christians, shouldnt we be turning the other cheek, should we just rebuild the towers. Should we welcome them into our country and put no penalty on the killing of us. The only thing I could counter with, is that we would not be around to witness and allow future generations to hear the gospel. But I felt defeated. The idea of what we are doing in iraq, and afghanistan is completely against what jesus said? I dont understand. plz help.

Welcome to CF.

As to the bickering, might as well get use to it.

Anyways, yes, Christianity has the issue of dieing out since protection of self is not that high of a priority. But, if Christianity is true (remember, this is one of the secular forums, so we must add our disclaimers here), then why would God allow it to 'die out'?

Now, one big thing to remember is that the USA is not Christian, we are a democratic republic, and we will defend our nation. Now, should we harm, shoot, bomb, nuke others? Well, about the only verses concerning this is Romans 13, but personally I disagree with Paul here by the pure fact that it seems to suggest that anything the government tells you to do should be followed. Personally, I take it as a good rule to follow most of the time, but when it violates the two greatest commandments (love God, love others) Jesus Himself laid down, then I do not think it should be followed.

But even simpler than war is the idea of punishment. Jesus says turn the other cheek, but no one seems to do that when the metaphorical slap was a rape or murder. I think that one made need to bring in some Deontology and Utilitarianism (instead of what is best, try what is most loving) here to determine what is loving others. Removing a rapist from society is loving others, torturing that rapist once removed isn't.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

That Paul, apostle to the gentiles, converted only Jews?

You mean Paul the Jew? Or the Apostles and Jerusalem Church body?

All Jews.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

There's a Roman centurion's family and at least a couple of Samaritan women who testify to the falseness of your claim.

Indeed, these accounts bear witness to the fact that Jesus responded to anyone who was seeking wholeness and new life.

These are examples of Jesus reaching out to "the other." In regards to the OP, I think these stories delve deeper into what it means to open ourselves to one another, no matter what our differences are. It's risky, yes indeed. But it's the Way of the Cross, and the Way of Love. It means we might even lose our life.

You can read about the Jewishness of the Christians from the issue between Paul and Peter. Be that as it may, Jesus also referred to the fact that His disciples were children of Israel.

Then it spread out.

 

[PantsMcFist]

I replied in the other thread, and an esteemed colleague brought this one to my attention. Here was my reply:

I can understand how these could be difficult issues to deal with.

Firstly, turning the other cheek is not to invite violence upon ourselves. In that sense, Jesus' command has been completely misunderstood. Being struck in the face, in Jesus time and place, was a gesture which was supposed to "put you in your place". If a slave or servant or anyone socially below the slapper acted out of place, they could be struck to remind them of their position, and to show deference. A second slap was a humiliating act, an act of domination. The slaps were delivered with only a specific hand, the unclean one (forget which it was). If you turned your face towards that persons hand, they would be unable to slap your cheek (striking others in the face was strongly forbidden - blows of status were limited to the sides of the head). Jesus was instructing us to know our place in the world, and act with the proper deference to those above us - but to refuse to allow them to strip of us our dignity or self-respect.

To that end, you can look into the life of Gandhi, and the Satyagraha movement. Their methods of gaining independence, were maximally Christ-like. The person you were debating against has a point - Christians should not take a life to defend their own. If you can defend yourself without taking a life - then do so. Also, there is no reason to believe that Christians should not stop the taking of innocent lives (Just War Theory).

As to your final question - we should inhibit others from taking lives, and if at all possible, resist from taking any ourselves. Iraq is a mess - great good could have been done, but they way things went, it is too late to justify the damage done. The same can be said for Afghanistan, but I have more hope that things can come out for the better there.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Actually, if you look into history, you are correct in that the early followers were Jews.

Thank you.

But after a generation passed and Jesus didn't return, the Jewish movement sort of fell away and was replaced by the Gentile movement that Paul spread so well.

What? "Jews" opposed Jesus and Paul and Stephen long before a generation passed. These would be "Jews" that refused to follow the Messianic (Christian) movement, even during the time before the execution of Jesus.

The falling away of Jewish Christians had to do with the Messiahship of Jesus (Yeshua) and the pressure of living in the Jewish community. Read Hebrews and see.

This is the one that would later incorporate so much of the pagan influences that were around at the time, such as the holiday of Easter.

And Christians like me are still contending against the paganism of european influences in The Church as we write. Such as gay activism.

 

[b&wpac4]

Thank you.

What? "Jews" opposed Jesus and Paul and Stephen long before a generation passed. These would be "Jews" that refused to follow the Messianic (Christian) movement, even during the time before the execution of Jesus.

There were at least three other Messianic movements going on at the same time. We don't nearly hear as much fanfare about them. I will also point out, none of those movements caught fire in the gentiles. Paul was really good at converting gentiles.

The falling away of Jewish Christians had to do with the Messiahship of Jesus (Yeshua) and the pressure of living in the Jewish community. Read Hebrews and see.

Yeshua didn't meet the messianic prophecies before his death, from their point of view. Why exactly would they accept them?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

if you cannot relate to my question posted above, plz quit arguing over your selfish quarrel, and post the real problem that you have in a different thread. I do not mean to be rude, but when people are reading my post, they are going to see your bickering, and forget that my question asks if how we do things as christians today is correct, in terms of the new testament.

You tell us. The New Testament is a compilation of well-written letters explaining Christian culture.

(Currently we are in an aggresive stance in a country fighting for our beliefs and getting vengeance, the main one being religion. But doesnt that go against the teachings, Are you supposed to "fight" at all.)

Who's "fighting?" Christians stand their ground and people that don't like that fight them. The New Testament, when applied to the "fighting" going on between so many factions, explains how to live the life quite well.

In all actuality, no matter what you call it, we are in a different country killing people.

NO. No, "WE" are not. The United States of America is engaging Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq. The United States is a country and not a Church. Just ask all the atheists that post here.

Maybe it is self defense, but are we not supposed to defend ourselves?

When sent out as a missionary, or rather, an apostle, then there is no possible way that you can fight back in a violent way towards your antagonists. But anyone saying that a Christian cannot "contend for the faith," is not being honest.