Help with Romans 9:1-5

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

 

[Guojing]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

Replacement or fulfillment theology, that the Body of Christ has somehow replaced or become Israel, is a very popular doctrine held by Christians.

We don't need to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, it has fallen in the eyes of God and is as uncircumcised as any other nation (Romans 11:11).

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

What does it mean that the church has been grafted in Israel’s place? | GotQuestions.org
In Romans 11:11–24 Paul compares Israel to the natural branches of a cultivated olive tree and the Gentile believers to the branches of a wild olive tree. The natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17). The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation. While the “natural branches” were cut off because Israel failed, God’s purposes are not complete until Israel is also grafted back into the people of God to share in the promises to Abraham and his seed. This brings full circle God’s larger redemptive plan (Romans 11:30–36) for both Jews and Gentiles as distinct populations within the people of God in the Davidic (or Millennial) Kingdom. Indeed, the prophets saw this Kingdom as the “final form” of the olive tree, so that Israel—reversing roles—would then bless the Gentiles, enabling them to join the people of God (see Zechariah 8:13, 20–23).

 

[Dave G.]

And yet they will always remain a blessed ( or selected) people who will turn to Christ in the end days. God comes short of destruction to them yet again in the battle at Armageddon. They turn to realize Jesus is Lord after the Antichrist and false prophet fail them. Consider Israel in a holding pattern, prophecies are still fulfilled through them, the latest one being under Donald Trump and the recognition of them having a capital. You are blessed to pray for Jews and cursed to pray against them. Replacement theology is a lie from the pit of hell. We have to run through this age we are presently in, the Church Age and God's eye turns back to them. We graft into the fig tree not replace the fig tree. What a silly concept and bigoted idea to think otherwise. God said they will return to their land and they have, the battle at Armageddon gets supernaturally interrupted. All biblical prophecy comes true, unbelieving Jews and gentiles go through hell in the book and chapters of Revelation. The 144,000 come out of the Jewish tribes with supernatural ability and go out evangelizing the world who has been totally blinded in deception in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and 1 Corinthians 2:14, there are jew and church elders seen in heaven in Rev 4.

God in no way is done with Israel.

 

[honestal]

Individual Jews can and do find Christ (and the true way).

But I believe the Jews as a nation will never return to God.

I hope somehow to stir up my own people to want what you have. PERHAPS I CAN SAVE SOME OF THEM." {Romans 11:14 NIrV}

 

[PQT]

When one grafts in new, different branches into a plant they MUST leave the majority of the natural branches intact, at least in the day these parables were taught. It is the nourishment and livelihood of the natural branches which nurtures and provides what the alien branches require to integrate into the plant's life and synthesis. It is the original or natural plant's roots and trunk which brings the nourishment the grafted branch needs. Cut the trunk or dig up or poison the roots and the grafted, along with the original/natural, branches die.

It would be interesting to see if one cuts all of the original branches off and only leaves the grafted branches if the tree would survive and be able to reproduce or be sterile.

 

[Andrewn]

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises... Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today. Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void. Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ... Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

This belief is called Dispensationalism or Christian Zionism. A careful reading of Galatians refutes it. One should never read Romans before understanding Galatians.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...." Is this promise void? A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

In Christianity, Jerusalem is interpreted as an allegory or type for the Church of Christ.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God? Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes? Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation? Paul certainly did not express this.

We should certainly pray for the peace of the Church and all the cities in the world. And we should certainly hope for restoration of the Jews and all people to God and should not regard any nation as anti-Christ unless they have apartheid practices and persecute and abuse people.

 

[GospelS]

It is the remnant that we stand with.

 

[Rachel20]

The Book of Ruth sheds a lot of light on this question. If Boaz is viewed as a type of Christ, Naomi as Israel, and Ruth as the church (the gentile bride), then we see in the end that both obtain an inheritance - Naomi being restored to hers through her kinsman redeemer Boaz, and Ruth becoming joint-heir with Boaz through her marriage to him.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

I understand "promise " to be the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Some Jews belive and are given the promise of salvation through Him. We know these people as the " remnant". Be blessed.

 

[Mr. M]

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Paul returns to a key point which he opened the epistle:
Romans 1:
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David
according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those
who are Christ’s at His coming.

He later confirms that in end all Israel will be saved, because of the promises.
Romans 11:
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning
the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Your concern seems to be the question of our relationship to the present day nation
of Israel. Or, should we be concerned with the well being of all Jews?
Romans 11:
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy
through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy
shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Christians are expected to be particularly merciful towards all Jews, beginning
with the ones who are our neighbors.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

Romans 9

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now I believe this passage deserves careful consideration.

Paul is showing great fondness and respect for those whom he refers to as 'kin'.

He attributes to them the following: "the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh..."

Now this was stated in the New Covenant period by Apostle Paul.

Lets focus on one aspect of this proclamation... The promises...

Reading the OT what promises concerning the Jews - in this New Covenant age - still stand as a hope for Jews today.

Paul does not suggest that the promises for the Jews were somehow transferred to the Church to the extent that the Cross somehow rendered them all void.

Yet Some believe that if you are to support and to stand with the physical nation of Israel today, you are standing with and you are supporting the anti-Christ...

Many believe that the Jews returning to the Land in 1948 was a fulfillment of a biblical promise.

Ps 22:6 States "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you...."

Is this promise void?

A recurring theme in the OT is God restoring a regenerate Israel.

Can we be sure that there will be no restoration of the Jews to God?

Can we be sure that they have zero ongoing role in His purposes?

Or do we regard them as a hopeless anti-Christ nation?

Paul certainly did not express this.

Romans 9 speaks of the Israel that existed during his time.

During the time of Paul it's Roman Provincial name was Palestine. The Israel Paul knew in the days of Jesus stopped existing.

The current Israel was a place for displaced Jews from world war 2 to go, since the Europeans took possession of all their property and tortured them.

The prophecies that speak of the return of Israel speak of extreme events that involve acts of God, in person. The present Israel came to be due to acts of war by humans.

The only prophecy that holds true for the region currently is the following:

The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. (Deuteronomy 28:23)

15 ¶ But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. {for … : Heb. which thou wouldest do }
21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. {sword: or, drought }
23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. {removed: Heb. for a removing }
26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

The land used to be very fertile, but it is now a desert, the current Israel has done nothing to turn this effect away from the land. They are not the Israel of God, and the same goes for their neighbors.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul returns to a key point which he opened the epistle:
Romans 1:
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David
according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those
who are Christ’s at His coming.

He later confirms that in end all Israel will be saved, because of the promises.
Romans 11:
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning
the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Your concern seems to be the question of our relationship to the present day nation
of Israel. Or, should we be concerned with the well being of all Jews?
Romans 11:
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy
through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy
shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Christians are expected to be particularly merciful towards all Jews, beginning
with the ones who are our neighbors.

OK some interesting responses - personally I found this one from MM most helpful and rings true with me.

I should repeat that I dont buy into the idolisation of the present nation of Israel, nor do I buy into the idolisation of the Torah. I do however have a deep compassion for the Jews and have a life call in that direction.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Is he speaking of Jews or Isreal? Not to say that one cannot be the other but isnt the tribe of Judah just one of the any tribes of the children of Isreal?

Am I following?

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Hi there,

I raised this passage here on another thread...

Who, then, is Israel?

But this thread quickly became unsuitable for discussion.

You could have just started a new thread without going there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You could have just started a new thread without going there.

True, but I didnt realise at the time the matter was so volatile and in a forum not suitable for discussion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is he speaking of Jews or Isreal? Not to say that one cannot be the other but isnt the tribe of Judah just one of the any tribes of the children of Isreal?

Am I following?

My take is that Paul is speaking of Jews.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

True, but I didnt realise at the time the matter was so volatile and in a forum not suitable for discussion.

Well its a little private place and she was kind enough to allow posts and consider some things, just sometimes when you drag what is in more of a private arena onto the more public floor telling more then you really need to in a forum where theres alot of nastiness you put a target on someone, and she does not deserve that.

I'll let it go now

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

My take is that Paul is speaking of Jews.

How are Jews counted as Jews (outside of Christ that is) is it by bloodline or by doctrine? Hows that work?

 

[Guojing]

Romans 11:
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy
through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy
shown you they also may obtain mercy.

Christians are expected to be particularly merciful towards all Jews, beginning
with the ones who are our neighbors.

The judgement of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46) indicated that during the Tribulation, in the age to come, gentiles from all nations (Matthew 25:32) will be saved provided that they help to feed/cloth the Jewish brethren of Jesus (Matthew 25:40).

But now, Jews are no higher status that any gentile unbelievers that we come across. So, we are not expected to treat them any differently from others now.