Help with reformed theology

[ellisb2]

Help with reformed theology


I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

 

[arunma]

I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

Thank you for your question. If I understand correctly, non-Calvinists tend to believe that God's election is based simply on his omnipotent foreknowledge of our decisions. But instead, Calvinists believe that God specifically elected us to salvation, and that he gives us the ability to believe in him. As it says,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. (Ephesians 1:3-4)
​

Therefore, the Scripture takes away our right to take any role in our own salvation (though we very much play a role in our sanctification). It's important to note, however, that we do not believe that a genuine believe in Christ can be condemned for not being on a "predestination list," or that an unbeliever will be saved by means of election. Rather, we believe that our faith in Christ is evidence of our election in Christ.

 

[Iosias]

Help with reformed theology


I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

The best aid to understand Reformed theology are our creeds especially the Canons of Dort.

 

[ellisb2]

"I thought for most of my life that being saved was something I did. I thought it was walking down an aisle and repeating a prayer."

I don't look at it this way. I did not "DO" anything when I went down the aisle, all I did was ask Him to come into my life and to save me. If me asking Him to save me is "me doing" something to grant me being saved, I could go outside and ask the leaves to rake themselves off the lawn and into the burnning pile.

 

[ellisb2]

I just came up with another question. If we are elected then why do little details like this matter?

 

[AndOne]

I just came up with another question. If we are elected then why do little details like this matter?

Howdy - Great Question -

I think the greatest blessing in "the details" is that it takes away all effort/work from man and places it squarely on the grace and love of our Savior. That includes even the decision to follow Christ - which in and of itself is a gift of God.

If you are elected in Christ - then it means that you absolutely played no part whatsoever in your salvation. You can't even boast in your decision to follow Him. In other words you have no room to boast or proclaim that you played a role in your salvation.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Help with reformed theology


I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

Howdy, ellisb2! You've got some great questions. Books have been written explaining these concepts. I don't know if you'll find completely satisfactory answers on a forum like this...but hopefully we can point you in the right direction!!

The first thing I'd like to point out is that our 20th/21st century American concepts of free will have been very colored by popular philosophies from the last 200-400 years...and this has also spilled over into popular theology (read that...mainstream Christian) as well.

Try reading Romans 9 in this light....let it say what it says. Romans 9 is commonly interpreted from the preconception that Paul is speaking here of nations, not individuals. I submit to you that this does not fit the context. In fact, if you read it correctly, you will probably respond in outrage with something like "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists His will?", and you will notice that Paul has anticipated this objection and responds to it.

"I thought for most of my life that being saved was something I did. I thought it was walking down an aisle and repeating a prayer."

I don't look at it this way. I did not "DO" anything when I went down the aisle, all I did was ask Him to come into my life and to save me. If me asking Him to save me is "me doing" something to grant me being saved, I could go outside and ask the leaves to rake themselves off the lawn and into the burnning pile.

This is an important point to clarify. According to the way the gospel is usually preached in America, we are told that God has done everything He can to save us, but now the decision is left up to us. We still have to ask Him into our life and save us...and then God regenerates our hearts. We are told that faith precedes regeneration.

Calvinists believe that we do need to ask Him into our life...but the only reason we can do that is because God has already changed our hearts prior to our asking Him in. Calvinists take scripture at face value when it says

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. Romans 3:10-11

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Gen 8:21

(This is not a hypothetical evil that may be in some men’s hearts. God says here that every inclination of all men’s hearts are evil from childhood.)

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God.)

...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8

Let’s think about this for a minute. These and other scriptures tell us that an unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God? Calvinists believe that God has to first change a persons heart before they will even want anything to do with God. Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes faith.

Like I said, you probably won't get a completely satisfactory answer in the limited format of an on-line forum. If I could recommend one book for you to explore the issue of election, I would recommend RC Sproul's Chosen By God. It's written in laymans language, and it spells out the ins and outs of election verey well. I did not adopt Reformed (or Calvinist) beliefs until about four years ago or so...and I put up a two year fight against it before I finally realized that Reformed theology actually handles scripture more honestly than any other theology I've encountered in my 24 years as a Christian.

Hope this helps a little...and feel free to keep asking questions!!

 

[erin74]

BBAS posted a link to some talks by Sproul the other day. I've been listening to them and have got a lot from them. The one that is about to drop off the bottom of the page is the one on election.
http://www.ligonier.org/rym.php

They are not long talks, and are really good - he is a very clear speaker. But you'd have to get in quick on it. They post a new talk each day, and it pushes other talks down. This one will slip off sometime soon I guess.

 

[cygnusx1]

I just came up with another question. If we are elected then why do little details like this matter?

have some help from a man who has helped millions ;


I. Let us begin with this assertion, which we are absolutely sure is correct: THIS DOCTRINE DOES NOT OPPOSE ANY COMFORT DERIVED FROM OTHER SCRIPTURAL TRUTHS.
This doctrine, stern as it may seem to be, does not oppose the consolation which may be rightly derived from any other truth of revelation. Those who hold the free-will theory, say that our doctrine, that salvation is of the Lord alone, and that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, takes away from man the comfort derivable from God's goodness. God is good, infinitely good in his nature. God is love; he willeth not the death of any, but had rather that all should come to repentance. "As I live, saith the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, but had rather that he should turn unto me and live." Our friends very properly insist upon it that God is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works; that the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy; let me assure them that we shall never quarrel on these points, for we also rejoice in the same facts. Some of you have listened to my voice for these ten years: I ask you whether you have heard me utter a single sentence which at all contradicts the doctrine of God's great goodness? You may have so construed it by mistake, but no such teaching has passed my lip. Do I not, again and again, assert the universal benevolence of God—the infinite and overflowing goodness of the heart of the Most High? If any man can preach upon the great text, "God is love," though I may not be able to preach with the same eloquence, I will venture to view with him in the decision, heartiness, delight, earnestness, and plainness, with which he may expound his theme, be he who he may, or what he may. There is not the slightest shadow of a conflict between God's sovereignty and God's goodness. He may be a sovereign, and yet it may be absolutely certain that he will always act in the way of goodness and love. It is true that he will do as he wills; and yet it is quite certain that he always wills to do that which, in the widest view of it, is good and gracious. If the sons of sorrow fetch any comfort from the goodness of God, the doctrine of election will never stand in their way. Only mark, it does with a two-edged sword cut to pieces that false confidence in God's goodness which sends so many souls to hell. We have heard dying men singing themselves into the bottomless pit with this lullaby, "Yes, sir, I am a sinner, but God is merciful; God is good." Ah! dear friends, let such remember that God is just as well as good, and that he will by no means spare the guilty, except through the great atonement of his Son Jesus Christ. The doctrine of election, in a most blessedly honest manner does come in, and breaks the neck, once for all, of all this false and groundless confidence in the uncovenanted mercy of God. Sinner, you have no right to trust to the goodness of God out of Christ. There is no word in the whole Book of Inspiration, which gives the shadow of a hope to the man who will not believe in Jesus Christ. It says of him, "He that believeth not shall be damned." It declares of you, who are resting upon such a poor confidence as the unpromised favor of heaven, "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, Jesus Christ the righteous." If this be an evil to rob you of a false refuge, the doctrine of election certainly does this; but from the comfort properly derivable from the largest view of God's bounteous goodness and unlimited love, election does not detract a single grain.
Much comfort, too, flows to a troubled conscience from the promise that God will hear prayer. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you, for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." If you ask anything of God in the name of Jesus Christ, you shall receive it. Now, there are some who imagine that they must not pray because they do not know whether they are God's chosen people. If you refuse to pray on the ground of such bad reasoning as this, you must do so at your own expense; but do mark our solemn assurance, for which we have God's warrant, that there is nothing in the sovereignty of God which at all militates against the great truth, that every sincerely seeking soul, craving divine grace by humble prayer through Jesus Christ, shall be a finder. There may be an Arminian brother here who would like to get into this pulpit and preach the cheering truth, that God hath not said to the seed of Jacob, seek ye my face in vain. We not only accord him full liberty to preach this doctrine, but we will go as far as he can, and perhaps a little further, in the enunciation of that truth. We cannot perceive any discrepancy between personal election and the prevalence of prayer. Let those who can, vex their brains with the task of reconciling them; to us the wonder is how a man can believe the one without the other. Firmly must I believe that the Lord God will show mercy to whom he will show mercy, and have compassion on whom he will have compassion; but I know as assuredly that wherever there is a genuine prayer, God gave it; that wherever there is a seeker, God made him seek; consequently if God has made the man seek and made the man pray, there is evidence at once of divine election; and the fact stands true that none seek who shall not find.
Very much comfort also is supposed to be derived, and naturally so, from the free invitations of the gospel. "Ah," cries one, "what a sweet thing it is that the Saviour cried, 'Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' How delightful to read such a word as this, 'Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price,' Sir, my heart is encouraged when I find it written, 'Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.' But, sir, I dare not come because of the doctrine of election." My dear hearer, I would not say anything harshly to you, but I must express my conviction that this is nothing but an idle excuse for not doing what you have no mind to do; because invitations of the most general character, nay, invitations which shall be universal in their scope, are perfectly consistent with the election of God. I have preached here, you know it, invitations as free as those which proceeded from the lips of Master John Wesley. Van Armin himself, the founder of the Arminian school, could not more honestly have pleaded with the very vilest of the vile to come to Jesus than I have done. Have I therefore felt in my mind that there was a contradiction here? No, nothing of the kind; because I know it to be my duty to sow beside all waters, and like the sower in the parable, to scatter the seed upon the stony ground, as well as upon the good land, knowing that election does not narrow the gospel call which is universal, but only affects the effectual call, which is and must be from the Spirit of God. My business is to give the general call, the Holy Spirit will see to its application to the chosen. O my dear hearers, God's invitations are honest invitations to every one of you. He invites you; in the words of the parable he addresses, "All things are ready; come ye to the supper, my oxen and my fatlings are killed." Nay, he saith to his ministers, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in." Though he foreknows who will come in, and has before all worlds ordained who shall taste of that supper, yet the invitation in its widest possible range, is a true and honest one; and if you accept it you shall find it so.


http://www.pbministries.org/articles/Spurgeon/election_no_discouragement.htm