Help with reformed theology

[DeaconDean]

ellisb2, now whether or not you accept the theory of election is your own choice. But let me say this, the very first reference of election comes from Isa. 42:1. God speaks of election four times in Isaiah: 42:1; 45:4; 65:9,22. This "Calvin's mumbo-jumbo" as someone said, is taught in the Bible. And as such, it is to be believed.

We don't know why God uses election, but one day we be able to ask Him why. But for now, what we can say is that for whatever reason, God choose us to be one of His simply because it suited Him to do so.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,...according to the good pleasure of his will," -Eph. 1:4-5

The word "elect" is found 17 times in the Bible, 4 in the Old Testament, and 13 times in the New Testament. The word "elect's" is found twice in Matthews Gospel. The word "elected" is found in 1 Pet. 5:13. The word "election" is found 6 times in the New Testament. And finally, the word "elects'" is found in 2 Tim. 2:10.

This stuff of "the doctrine of election makes man nothing but robots" is so wrong. Election has nothing to do with this sort of stuff. Election simply means that for whatever reason known only to the Lord God, He chose us to be one of His. As Creator, does God as soveriegn Lord, not have the right to create men/women in any fashion as He sees fit?

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -Rom. 9:19-21

Now God does create men and women to be His, and by the same degree, God does also create some not to be His for the purpose that His power and glory should be made manifest in them.

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." -Rom. 9:17

The doctrine of election means that God has chosen some to be His just "according to the pleasure of his good will." That does not mean that men and women walk around like robots doing nothing but what He has decreed. No! What this means is that He has chosen those whom He wants for whatever reason, and there is no timeline given as to when they come to Him. Some will come early, some will come late. But...those that He has chosen will come to Him.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ellisb2]

I asked questions about it because I'm afraid of being "brain washed" if I go with my friend to his church. Harsh words but that's the only way I could put it and you get my point. I want to know what the Baptist theology says about election and calvinism. I don't really want calvinist to come on here and defend their theology.

 

[DeaconDean]

I asked questions about it because I'm afraid of being "brain washed" if I go with my friend to his church. Harsh words but that's the only way I could put it and you get my point. I want to know what the Baptist theology says about election and calvinism. I don't really want calvinist to come on here and defend their theology.

Brother, the trouble with election is that whenever it is mentioned, it is most always associated with John Calvin. But let me say this, while Calvin did one of the best treatises on election, he was not the first to suggest this idea. What most seem to forget is that the idea of predestination and election came from a a person out of the Catholic tradition. The first person to suggest predestination and election was Augustine in AD 320. Some 1180 years before John Calvin. It is just that John Calvin took election to the furtherest degree in study. So I would suggest you start by reading Augustine's "A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints." This is a very good starting point.

Here it is:

http://www.covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ellisb2]

The link is not working.

 

[DeaconDean]

It did for me.

In any case, it can be accessed here:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/election.html

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

I asked questions about it because I'm afraid of being "brain washed" if I go with my friend to his church. Harsh words but that's the only way I could put it and you get my point. I want to know what the Baptist theology says about election and calvinism. I don't really want calvinist to come on here and defend their theology.

There are Baptists on both sides of the teaching on election. The question you must answer is: is it Scriptural? Sourthern Baptists started out believing in the Calvinistic view but moved away from it and is now coming back to it to some extent. There has always been many Baptists who held to the Callvinistic view. That doesn't make us Calvinist's in the strict Reformed sense but we do believe that the 5 points are Scriptural. I am not sure what you mean by not wanting Calvinists to come on and defend their position. Do you not want those of us who are Baptist to try and help you if we believe in election?

 

[ellisb2]

That one works but the other one still don't.

 

[DeaconDean]

The latter will get you to the article, use that one.

Hope it helps.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Wizzer]

I asked questions about it because I'm afraid of being "brain washed" if I go with my friend to his church. Harsh words but that's the only way I could put it and you get my point. I want to know what the Baptist theology says about election and calvinism. I don't really want calvinist to come on here and defend their theology.

Hello ellisb2,

I’m afraid you are going to have to listen to all sides of the issue whether you want to or not. As far as there being an ‘official’ baptist position concerning election, I’m not sure that there is one. But even if there were one, you should still examine the alternatives, for there would be no guarantee that the ‘official’ position would be the correct one. I am willing to offer my understanding of election, but you should never limit yourself to just one side of an argument.

One’s biblical perspective is made up of a number of interconnected pieces. It is kind of like a tailor making a coat out of may pieces of cloth. Reformed theology has ‘sewn’ the pieces together in a particular way, to form what it thinks is the best overall ‘fit’ to scripture. But other tailors have sewn the pieces together differently, resulting in a different coat which fits differently. You must realize that election is a very fundamental piece in any garment. And by saying you are ready to consider the alternative views on election, what you are really saying (whether you realize it or not) is that you are willing to try on different coats so you can judge for yourself which one fits scripture best. Realize also that election - which is a but one piece - connects to many other pieces of the final garment. This means that if and when you adjust your view of election, that other ‘pieces’ may have to be likewise adjusted. So let me warn you up front, a study of election may require you to rethink some other areas as well. In other words, a study of election may not be as stand-alone as you might think. So just let me know if you want me share my understanding of election.

Wizzer

 

[ghs1994]

I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

I guess what it boils down to is this....

What were we commanded to do?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen.

I know there are debates over doctrine all the time concerning election, but ask yourself this....

Why does it really matter? Take aim at the things we've been commanded to do as Christians. If we had no role in the salvation of others, we wouldn't have been commanded to go. At the same time, we plant and water, but God gives the increase. We may teach/preach the Gospel, but the Holy Spirit does the saving. Either way, God gets the glory.

There is too much time wasted by Christians debating the election doctine rather than going out doing what it is we've been commanded to do.

 

[Matthan]

Your calvinist friend overlooks one important fact. Just because God is omniscient (knows everything) does not in any way equate to His foreordination of everything. We must exercise our own free will with respect to our relationship with Jesus, or in rejecting any relationship.

Matthan

 

[ellisb2]

I guess what it boils down to is this....

What were we commanded to do?

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen.

I know there are debates over doctrine all the time concerning election, but ask yourself this....

Why does it really matter? Take aim at the things we've been commanded to do as Christians. If we had no role in the salvation of others, we wouldn't have been commanded to go. At the same time, we plant and water, but God gives the increase. We may teach/preach the Gospel, but the Holy Spirit does the saving. Either way, God gets the glory.

There is too much time wasted by Christians debating the election doctine rather than going out doing what it is we've been commanded to do.

You say "we plant" but if we are elect "we" don't do anything it's already planted.

 

[ellisb2]

Your calvinist friend overlooks one important fact. Just because God is omniscient (knows everything) does not in any way equate to His foreordination of everything. We must exercise our own free will with respect to our relationship with Jesus, or in rejecting any relationship.

Matthan

My friend is very knowledgeable about it, I may not remember how it all goes. Nothing could be foreknown as certain that had not been made certain by foreordination, nor could anything be foreordained that was not foreknown. You are tring to tell me that God can't do something? I hope not, He can do anything He want's to do.

 

[ellisb2]

"Do you not want those of us who are Baptist to try and help you if we believe in election?" Yeah maybe that would be easer. It's not that I don't want them to come on here and give their point of view but I am more intersted in hearing what Baptist's view is.

 

[DeaconDean]

ellisb2, have you ever read the story of Adoniram Judson? Adroniram Judson was the first missionary under the newly formed American Board for Foreign Missions. While on the ship bound for India, he read the passages concerning Baptism and as his biography says: "But on that voyage, Judson, while doing translation work, saw the teaching of immersion as the mode of baptism in the Bible. Conscientiously and courageously, he cut off his support under the Congregational board until a Baptist board could be founded to support him!
The Judsons were rejected entrance into India to preach the Gospel to the Hindus by the East India Company and after many trying times, frustrations, fears, and failures, they finally found an open door in Rangoon, Burma." He became convinced that God had some "elect" in Burma and went there for the elects sake.

"It was to be six, long, soul-crushing, heart-breaking years before the date of the first decision for Christ. Then, on June 27, 1819, Judson baptized the first Burman believer, Moung Nau. Judson jotted in his journal: "Oh, may it prove to be the beginning of a series of baptisms in the Burman empire which shall continue in uninterrupted success to the end of the age." Converts were added slowly — a second, then three, then six, and on to eighteen...The work progressed and gospel power began to open blind eyes, break idolatry-shackled hearts and transform the newly-begotten converts into triumphant Christians. On April 12, 1850, at the age of 62, Judson died. Except for a few months (when he returned to America after thirty-four years from his first sailing), Judson had spent thirty-eight years in Burma. Although he had waited six years for his first convert, sometime after his death a government survey recorded 210,000 Christians, one out of every fifty-eight Burmans! It was a partial fulfillment and a monument to the spirit and ministry of the man, who at Ava, the capital city, gazed at the temple of Buddha and challenged, "A voice mightier than mine, a still small voice, will ere long sweep away every vestige of thy dominion. The churches of Jesus Christ will soon supplant these idolatrous monuments and the chanting devotees of Buddha will die away before the Christian's hymns of praise."

There are elect out there, and it is our duty to spread the gospel so that it reaches God's elect.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

"Do you not want those of us who are Baptist to try and help you if we believe in election?" Yeah maybe that would be easer. It's not that I don't want them to come on here and give their point of view but I am more intersted in hearing what Baptist's view is.

I am a Baptist and I believe in the sovereign election of God of some of Adam's fallen race to eternal salvation. I can't speak for other Baptists but I can tell you something about the historic Baptist view on it. I will wait to do so until you ask though because of your response. If I can help you I am glad to do it. I am not interested in debating it. Let me know if you want me to continue.

 

[DeaconDean]

ellisb2, the doctrine of election as far as baptists in America are concerned, can be traced as far back as 1784. Here is a copy of John Gano's letter concerning "effectual calling" or "election."


CIRCULAR LETTER
Philadelphia Baptist Association, 1784
EFFECTUAL CALLING
By Rev. John Gano, Pastor
First Baptist Church, New York City

The elders and brethren of the several churches, met in Association at New York, October 5th, 6th, and 7th, 1784.​

To the churches with whom we are connected, send greeting:​

Dearly beloved—The preceding minutes will give you every necessary information relative to our meeting, the state of our churches, and our endeavors for their prosperity. We trust, you will unite your efforts with ours, to the same good purpose; and that our thanksgivings for the present peace, harmony, and increase of our churches, our prayers for their further growth, with a more powerful effusion of the Divine Spirit and grace upon them, will be mutually offered up. May the consideration of our effectual calling prove an incentive thereunto! Which is the subject now to be considered, as in the tenth chapter of our Confession of faith. That we may investigate this subject as fully as the limits of a letter will allow, we will consider, first, the call; secondly, the Author of the call; thirdly, the called; and fourthly, its efficacy.​

I. The call. This is an act of sovereign grace, which flows from the everlasting love of God, and is such an irresistible impression made by the Holy Spirit upon the human soul, as to effect a blessed change. This impression or call is sometimes immediate, as in the instance of Paul and others; though more ordinarily through the instrumentality of the word and providence of God. Though in both the impression or power upon the soul or rational principle of operation must be the same. This may be considered as one power capable of exerting itself in various modes; as in perceiving, choosing, refusing, loving, hating, &c. Likewise the impression before mentioned may be viewed as one spiritual principle of operation in the soul, exerting itself in divers ways, rather than as different principles of grace.​

II. We are to consider the Author of the call. The Author is God, the Father, Son, and Spirit. As in 1 Thess. ii. 12, "That ye walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory." Also, in 2 Tim. i. 9, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace," &c. In others it more directly applies to the Father, who is said to call them unto the fellowship of his Son. Sometimes it is ascribed to the Son, as in Proverbs i. 20, viii., where saints are said to be called of Jesus Christ. Lastly, it is ascribed to the Holy Ghost, as in Phil. i. 6; "Being confident of this very thing, that he who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Upon the whole this call is heard as it is in deed and in truth, the call of God, and not the voice of man.​

III. We are to consider who are the called. They are such as God hath chosen and predestinated both to grace and glory, elected and set apart in Christ, as redeemed by his blood, although by nature children of wrath even as others; not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. This is an holy, heavenly, and, consequently, an high calling. [emphasis mine]​

IV. Its efficacy. It is effectual to bring the subjects of it to a piercing sense of their guilt and impurity. The mind is deeply convicted, that the fountain is in his very heart or nature, from which all its criminal actions have sprung; and that the lust within disposes us to violate the laws of God in as great a variety of ways as nature is capable of exerting itself, agreeable to Paul's expression, "Sin revived and I died." The soul is affected with a view of its sinfulness and the malignity of sin in its nature, as entirely opposed to the holy law of God; hence arises an abhorrence of sin, as vile and odious, and a sense of its demerit as deserving eternal death. This call produces a consciousness of the absolute impossibility of our contributing in the least degree towards a recovery from this wretched condition, and destroys all confidence of help in the flesh. It is a call to Christ, and gives a view of him in his suitableness and ability as a Saviour; the merit of his obedience and sacrifice, and the treasures of his grace are all brought into view, which creates desires of an interest in him, and resolutions of looking unto and relying wholly upon him for salvation; at the same time cordially acknowledging desert of rejection from him, and yet strengthened to rely entirely upon and surrender all unto the disposal of Christ; setting to our seals that God is true; believing the record he has given of his Son, which is eternal life, and that this life is in his Son. The changes produced are from darkness to light, from bondage to liberty, from alienation and estrangedness to Christ to a state of nearness and fellowship with him and his saints. This call administers peace of conscience towards God, and disposes its subjects to peace with mankind, so far as is consistent with righteousness.​

This is an holy calling, and is effectual to produce the exercise of holiness in the heart, even as the saints are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. God having called us, not to uncleanness, but to holiness, yea, even to glory and virtue, and "to live holly, righteously, and godly in this present evil world;" and to conform us, both as men and as Christians, to the pure dictates of nature and the authority of revelation, in all virtuous actions. To believe what is divinely revealed, and to obey what is divinely enjoined; in which the saints are required to persevere unto "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, which is reserved in heaven for them," and unto which this effectual vocation ultimately tends. From all which considerations, we learn what it is to be both good and great, and that the way to advance in durable riches and righteousness; to live on high; live above the vanities and pomp of this trifling world, and to shame those who walk unworthily, is to retain a sense of our heavenly vocation. Thus will the hearts and hands of all God's people, and especially his ministers, be supported and strengthened; thus will the religion of our adorable Redeemer be honored in the world; thus shall we glorify God in life and enjoy his peace in death, and leave behind a finished testimony that our calling was effectual and our profession sincere.​

Signed by order of the Association,​

SAMUEL WALDO, Moderator WILLIAM VANHORN, Clerk.​

====================​

[From the Philadelphia Baptist Association Minutes, 1784. -- jrd]​

So the doctrine of "election" can be seen as far back as 1784 as recorded in the minutes of the very first Baptist Association ever formed in America. (Section III, is highlighted and emphasized by me for your information) The Philadelphia Baptist Association was formed in 1701.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

ellisb2, the doctrine of election as far as baptists in America are concerned, can be traced as far back as 1784. Here is a copy of John Gano's letter concerning "effectual calling" or "election."


CIRCULAR LETTER
Philadelphia Baptist Association, 1784
EFFECTUAL CALLING
By Rev. John Gano, Pastor
First Baptist Church, New York City

The elders and brethren of the several churches, met in Association at New York, October 5th, 6th, and 7th, 1784.​

To the churches with whom we are connected, send greeting:​

Dearly beloved—The preceding minutes will give you every necessary information relative to our meeting, the state of our churches, and our endeavors for their prosperity. We trust, you will unite your efforts with ours, to the same good purpose; and that our thanksgivings for the present peace, harmony, and increase of our churches, our prayers for their further growth, with a more powerful effusion of the Divine Spirit and grace upon them, will be mutually offered up. May the consideration of our effectual calling prove an incentive thereunto! Which is the subject now to be considered, as in the tenth chapter of our Confession of faith. That we may investigate this subject as fully as the limits of a letter will allow, we will consider, first, the call; secondly, the Author of the call; thirdly, the called; and fourthly, its efficacy.​

I. The call. This is an act of sovereign grace, which flows from the everlasting love of God, and is such an irresistible impression made by the Holy Spirit upon the human soul, as to effect a blessed change. This impression or call is sometimes immediate, as in the instance of Paul and others; though more ordinarily through the instrumentality of the word and providence of God. Though in both the impression or power upon the soul or rational principle of operation must be the same. This may be considered as one power capable of exerting itself in various modes; as in perceiving, choosing, refusing, loving, hating, &c. Likewise the impression before mentioned may be viewed as one spiritual principle of operation in the soul, exerting itself in divers ways, rather than as different principles of grace.​

II. We are to consider the Author of the call. The Author is God, the Father, Son, and Spirit. As in 1 Thess. ii. 12, "That ye walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory." Also, in 2 Tim. i. 9, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace," &c. In others it more directly applies to the Father, who is said to call them unto the fellowship of his Son. Sometimes it is ascribed to the Son, as in Proverbs i. 20, viii., where saints are said to be called of Jesus Christ. Lastly, it is ascribed to the Holy Ghost, as in Phil. i. 6; "Being confident of this very thing, that he who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." Upon the whole this call is heard as it is in deed and in truth, the call of God, and not the voice of man.​

III. We are to consider who are the called. They are such as God hath chosen and predestinated both to grace and glory, elected and set apart in Christ, as redeemed by his blood, although by nature children of wrath even as others; not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. This is an holy, heavenly, and, consequently, an high calling. [emphasis mine]​

IV. Its efficacy. It is effectual to bring the subjects of it to a piercing sense of their guilt and impurity. The mind is deeply convicted, that the fountain is in his very heart or nature, from which all its criminal actions have sprung; and that the lust within disposes us to violate the laws of God in as great a variety of ways as nature is capable of exerting itself, agreeable to Paul's expression, "Sin revived and I died." The soul is affected with a view of its sinfulness and the malignity of sin in its nature, as entirely opposed to the holy law of God; hence arises an abhorrence of sin, as vile and odious, and a sense of its demerit as deserving eternal death. This call produces a consciousness of the absolute impossibility of our contributing in the least degree towards a recovery from this wretched condition, and destroys all confidence of help in the flesh. It is a call to Christ, and gives a view of him in his suitableness and ability as a Saviour; the merit of his obedience and sacrifice, and the treasures of his grace are all brought into view, which creates desires of an interest in him, and resolutions of looking unto and relying wholly upon him for salvation; at the same time cordially acknowledging desert of rejection from him, and yet strengthened to rely entirely upon and surrender all unto the disposal of Christ; setting to our seals that God is true; believing the record he has given of his Son, which is eternal life, and that this life is in his Son. The changes produced are from darkness to light, from bondage to liberty, from alienation and estrangedness to Christ to a state of nearness and fellowship with him and his saints. This call administers peace of conscience towards God, and disposes its subjects to peace with mankind, so far as is consistent with righteousness.​

This is an holy calling, and is effectual to produce the exercise of holiness in the heart, even as the saints are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. God having called us, not to uncleanness, but to holiness, yea, even to glory and virtue, and "to live holly, righteously, and godly in this present evil world;" and to conform us, both as men and as Christians, to the pure dictates of nature and the authority of revelation, in all virtuous actions. To believe what is divinely revealed, and to obey what is divinely enjoined; in which the saints are required to persevere unto "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, which is reserved in heaven for them," and unto which this effectual vocation ultimately tends. From all which considerations, we learn what it is to be both good and great, and that the way to advance in durable riches and righteousness; to live on high; live above the vanities and pomp of this trifling world, and to shame those who walk unworthily, is to retain a sense of our heavenly vocation. Thus will the hearts and hands of all God's people, and especially his ministers, be supported and strengthened; thus will the religion of our adorable Redeemer be honored in the world; thus shall we glorify God in life and enjoy his peace in death, and leave behind a finished testimony that our calling was effectual and our profession sincere.​

Signed by order of the Association,​

SAMUEL WALDO, Moderator WILLIAM VANHORN, Clerk.​

====================​

[From the Philadelphia Baptist Association Minutes, 1784. -- jrd]​

So the doctrine of "election" can be seen as far back as 1784 as recorded in the minutes of the very first Baptist Association ever formed in America. (Section III, is highlighted and emphasized by me for your information) The Philadelphia Baptist Association was formed in 1701.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Try the London Confession of 1689. A Baptist confession.

 

[DeaconDean]

CIRCULAR LETTER
Philadelphia Baptist Association, 1784
EFFECTUAL CALLING
By Rev. John Gano, Pastor

I thought this was rather interesting because it shows that at least as far back as 1784, election was believed in the very first Baptist association ever formed in America. And that it was not an election based on any form of foreknowledge of any forseen faith or good works on our part.

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,"

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

I thought this was rather interesting because it shows that at least as far back as 1784, election was believed in the very first Baptist association ever formed in America. And that it was not an election based on any form of foreknowledge of any forseen faith or good works on our part.



God Bless

Till all are one.

The rest of that passage is:
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: