Help with Mark 9:29

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

There are several references in the Gospels to the need for prayer and fasting to prepare one's self before dealing with some demonic issues.

Many modern translations omit the reference to fasting and some even omit the reference to Prayer.

Can someone explain what is going on here...

First what reliable manuscripts include this.

Second is there a place for prayer and fasting before being used to speak into a serious spiritual bondage?

Comments appreciated.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Hi there,

There are several references in the Gospels to the need for prayer and fasting to prepare one's self before dealing with some demonic issues.

Many modern translations omit the reference to fasting and some even omit the reference to Prayer.

Can someone explain what is going on here...

First what reliable manuscripts include this.

Second is there a place for prayer and fasting before being used to speak into a serious spiritual bondage?

Comments appreciated.

Do you have specific sections you would like to have comments on?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you have specific sections you would like to have comments on?

Mark 9:29

Matt 17:21

Some modern translations drop the verse out altogether.

Some refer to prayer only.

Others and the KJV include both prayer and fasting.

Look at how NASB reads in Matthew 17... VERSE 21 COMPLETELY MISSING. !!!

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 And He said to them, “Because of your meager faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.”

22 And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be handed over to men;

23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day.” And they were deeply grieved.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Mark 9:29

Matt 17:21

Some modern translations drop the verse out altogether.

Some refer to prayer only.

Others and the KJV include both prayer and fasting.

Look at how NASB reads in Matthew 17... VERSE 21 COMPLETELY MISSING. !!!

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 And He said to them, “Because of your meager faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.”

22 And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be handed over to men;

23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day.” And they were deeply grieved.

It's a textual criticism issue. I've checked Mark 9:29 and it seems none of the early Greek manuscripts have the 'and fasting' phrase, the earliest appearance of the phrase in any language seems to be the Codex Amiatinus (+/- 700 AD). Earliest Greek source is 9th century AD. So it's fairly safe to conclude this is not an original phrase from the author of the Gospel according to Mark. That is reflected in the current Nestle-Aland 28th edition (NA28 - 2012) - the kind-of scholarly accepted 'best-effort' reconstruction of the NT writings. And that is the Greek version most modern Bible translations are based on. The NKJV is an exception because it uses the same Greek text as the KJV (see my note below on that).

Many passionate believers find it difficult to deal with the uncomfortable truth that NT writings have a history .. variations emerged, sometimes phrases were added, sometimes omitted - sometimes this was done accidentally, sometimes intentionally. Biblical Historians are able to provide fascinating examples of that. This observation underscores the importance of the Science of Textual Criticism - it aims to most accurately reconstruct the original writings (and their path of development if any).

This observation does not shake my faith at all - even when taking the results Textual Criticism into account - the main message of the NT writings remain sufficiently accurate to base my faith on.

A famous example is the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) - when studying the complete history/development of this verse throughout time and over the various language groups (Greek, Aramaic, Latin) it's not difficult to conclude this was not an original verse. Interesting note: the before mentioned Codex Amiatinus (which does have the 'and fasting' phrase for Mark 9:29) doesn't have it.

The KJV (and other translations from the 16th - 17th century AD) were based on the Greek standardised Text from Erasmus - he didn't have access to the earlier Greek manuscripts (I believe his earliest Greek sources were 12th century AD). We now know simply more than Erasmus did, and hence we can reconstruct a 'better' Greek Text, and with that, hopefully translations more representative of the originals (which we don't have anymore).

Btw ... I think fasting is recommended practice from the Bible; be blessed Carl !

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's a textual criticism issue. I've checked Mark 9:29 and it seems none of the early Greek manuscripts have the 'and fasting' phrase, the earliest appearance of the phrase in any language seems to be the Codex Amiatinus (+/- 700 AD). Earliest Greek source is 9th century AD. So it's fairly safe to conclude this is not an original phrase from the author of the Gospel according to Mark. That is reflected in the current Nestle-Aland 28th edition (NA28 - 2012) - the kind-of scholarly accepted 'best-effort' reconstruction of the NT writings. And that is the Greek version most modern Bible translations are based on. The NKJV is an exception because it uses the same Greek text as the KJV (see my note below on that).

Many passionate believers find it difficult to deal with the uncomfortable truth that NT writings have a history .. variations emerged, sometimes phrases were added, sometimes omitted - sometimes this was done accidentally, sometimes intentionally. Biblical Historians are able to provide fascinating examples of that. This observation underscores the importance of the Science of Textual Criticism - it aims to most accurately reconstruct the original writings (and their path of development if any).

This observation does not shake my faith at all - even when taking the results Textual Criticism into account - the main message of the NT writings remain sufficiently accurate to base my faith on.

A famous example is the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) - when studying the complete history/development of this verse throughout time and over the various language groups (Greek, Aramaic, Latin) it's not difficult to conclude this was not an original verse. Interesting note: the before mentioned Codex Amiatinus (which does have the 'and fasting' phrase for Mark 9:29) doesn't have it.

The KJV (and other translations from the 16th - 17th century AD) were based on the Greek standardised Text from Erasmus - he didn't have access to the earlier Greek manuscripts (I believe his earliest Greek sources were 12th century AD). We now know simply more than Erasmus did, and hence we can reconstruct a 'better' Greek Text, and with that, hopefully translations more representative of the originals (which we don't have anymore).

Btw ... I think fasting is recommended practice from the Bible; be blessed Carl !

Comprehensive answer much appreciated.

 

[NBB]

I like that verse, and makes sense.
It doesn't matter actually much, because, after you can't deal with a problem like that, what you need to do?? insisting with lots of prayer, and fasting helps.

 

[eleos1954]

Hi there,

There are several references in the Gospels to the need for prayer and fasting to prepare one's self before dealing with some demonic issues.

Many modern translations omit the reference to fasting and some even omit the reference to Prayer.

Can someone explain what is going on here...

First what reliable manuscripts include this.

Second is there a place for prayer and fasting before being used to speak into a serious spiritual bondage?

Comments appreciated.

The Bible does not present fasting as a compulsory act or a requirement for being saved, though it is portrayed as a valuable practice.

While not fasting is not a sin in the same way that breaking a commandment is, deliberately avoiding this beneficial spiritual practice could lead to missing out on the blessings and growth that come from drawing closer to God. It's more about a spiritual discipline to be practiced rather than a rule to be followed without fail.

Neglecting prayer is considered a sin because the Bible instructs believers to pray continually and rely on God, and prayerlessness obstructs God's purposes and hinders the believer's spiritual life.

Prayer id the key to unlocking heaven's resources and receiving the power needed to overcome temptation and lead a righteous life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Bible does not present fasting as a compulsory act or a requirement for being saved, though it is portrayed as a valuable practice.

While not fasting is not a sin in the same way that breaking a commandment is, deliberately avoiding this beneficial spiritual practice could lead to missing out on the blessings and growth that come from drawing closer to God. It's more about a spiritual discipline to be practiced rather than a rule to be followed without fail.

Neglecting prayer is considered a sin because the Bible instructs believers to pray continually and rely on God, and prayerlessness obstructs God's purposes and hinders the believer's spiritual life.

Prayer id the key to unlocking heaven's resources and receiving the power needed to overcome temptation and lead a righteous life.

Yes - there is a strong affirmation of Godly fasting in Isaiah 58 and the heart of it's function is this verse..

​

6. Is this not the fast that I choose:
To release the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the ropes of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free,
And break every yoke?

 

[Dan Perez]

It's a textual criticism issue. I've checked Mark 9:29 and it seems none of the early Greek manuscripts have the 'and fasting' phrase, the earliest appearance of the phrase in any language seems to be the Codex Amiatinus (+/- 700 AD). Earliest Greek source is 9th century AD. So it's fairly safe to conclude this is not an original phrase from the author of the Gospel according to Mark. That is reflected in the current Nestle-Aland 28th edition (NA28 - 2012) - the kind-of scholarly accepted 'best-effort' reconstruction of the NT writings. And that is the Greek version most modern Bible translations are based on. The NKJV is an exception because it uses the same Greek text as the KJV (see my note below on that).

Many passionate believers find it difficult to deal with the uncomfortable truth that NT writings have a history .. variations emerged, sometimes phrases were added, sometimes omitted - sometimes this was done accidentally, sometimes intentionally. Biblical Historians are able to provide fascinating examples of that. This observation underscores the importance of the Science of Textual Criticism - it aims to most accurately reconstruct the original writings (and their path of development if any).

This observation does not shake my faith at all - even when taking the results Textual Criticism into account - the main message of the NT writings remain sufficiently accurate to base my faith on.

A famous example is the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) - when studying the complete history/development of this verse throughout time and over the various language groups (Greek, Aramaic, Latin) it's not difficult to conclude this was not an original verse. Interesting note: the before mentioned Codex Amiatinus (which does have the 'and fasting' phrase for Mark 9:29) doesn't have it.

The KJV (and other translations from the 16th - 17th century AD) were based on the Greek standardised Text from Erasmus - he didn't have access to the earlier Greek manuscripts (I believe his earliest Greek sources were 12th century AD). We now know simply more than Erasmus did, and hence we can reconstruct a 'better' Greek Text, and with that, hopefully translations more representative of the originals (which we don't have anymore).

Btw ... I think fasting is recommended practice from the Bible; be blessed Carl !

And I posted this verse ,v. 1 TIM 4:1-4 and have already posted it , as Demons are all around even as I type. !!

And I have an explanation on. the DISPENSATION only section !!

dan p