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Help with John 20:19-23

Carl Emerson

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John 20
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???
 

d taylor

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John 20
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???

What are they claiming, that they did not receive The Holy Spirit.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???

Strangely I have sort of dealt with the issue somewhat Obloquy based on a Charismatic interpretation of Acts, namely that "disciples" made a mistake when choosing Matthias before Pentecost (The claim is they should not have done so and the HS would have chosen Paul).

I argue with that profusely and this passage is one bullet point against that, among many others.

I got a Blog series post lying around if you are interested in that.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Strangely I have sort of dealt with the issue somewhat Obloquy based on a Charismatic interpretation of Acts, namely that "disciples" made a mistake when choosing Matthias before Pentecost (The claim is they should not have done so and the HS would have chosen Paul).

I argue with that profusely and this passage is one bullet point against that, among many others.

I got a Blog series post lying around if you are interested in that.

Thanks, yes... a link to the blog could be helpful.
 
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Ligurian

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John 20
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???

John 20:19-21 εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν· εἰρήνη ὑμῖν. καθὼς ἀπέσταλκέ με ὁ πατήρ, κἀγὼ πέμπω ὑμᾶς. 22 καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἐνεφύσησε καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· λάβετε Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον· 23 ἄν τινων ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας, ἀφίενται αὐτοῖς, ἄν τινων κρατῆτε, κεκράτηνται.

ἀπέσταλκέ is a derivative of the word for apostle, meaning someone who was sent. πέμπω is dispach... same thing.

As the Father sent His Son ...Matthew 3:16 and John 1:32... so, the Holy Spirit was given to the 11 Disciples to do that which Matthew 28:19-20 commands. The same thing happened in Matthew 10:1-7, where the power/authority given to them was the Holy Spirit... for the same purpose. And since their mission never ended, they kept the Holy Spirit for the duration.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Thanks, yes... a link to the blog could be helpful.

It was years ago, I saved it in a Word Processing Document.


Setting the Record straight on saint Matthias

This is going to be a long-term series like the “Pet Peeves” series about Christian myths, especially Charismatic ones. I especially love the topics where preachers second guess what a character in the Bible "should have done".

In this opening topic, I am going to be discussing the notion that the apostles consecrating Matthias to replace Judas was “a mistake” As some have suggested, "If only they would have waited... the Holy Spirit would have picked Saul of Tarsus".

Consecrating Matthias was not a mistake

#1 Most people who try to second guess the Apostles in the book of Acts do so because they say "Matthias disappears from history" after that point, because only after that he is mentioned once more in passing in the Bible and then never again.

The problem with this view is it assumes that the only Christian history worth reading is recorded in the Bible and assumes the Bible goes to great detail to record everything noteworthy in the world. I strongly disagree with this spurious reasoning and have two objections to it.

Objection 1) This is a myth that even the Bible refutes.

John 21:25

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” Just as the Bible does not claim to exhaustive in its record of Jesus ministry we should likewise expect the same for the early history of the Church especially since that history takes place over a much greater expanse of time.


Objection 2) The Bible only records events in the immediate Roman world (lots of lands lay outside that area),

History on this subject is admittedly not unanimous, but of the Matthian legends probably the best (most reliable) speaks of his traveling to Cappadocia (Turkey) and establishing a church in the region then continuing on to the region of the Caspian Sea. He is revered by the people of Georgia and other Christians in the Caucus as being their patron saint of the area and has a grave site at a roman fort of Gonio pictured below.


False Claim #2 “Choosing Matthias was a mistake if only the disciples would have waited the Holy Spirit would have EVENTUALLY chosen Saul.” People who say this actually assume that the disciples were operating from human wisdom and not according to the Holy Spirit. This point of view is ignorant on several accounts. In this post, I will remind people what the Bible ACTUALLY says.

Luke 24:45

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

John 20:22 ►

And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:

1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, AFTER GIVING INSTRUCTIONS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5

Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:“‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’[e]and,“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[f]

The Meaning of the Twelve Apostles (Matthias consecration was not a mistake).

Many people make false claims like the ones regarding Matthias because they don’t appreciate New Testament Types and symbols. The number of the Apostles had to be twelve because the Gospel was first sent to Israel. And twelve is the number that signifies that since there were twelve tribes that came from of the 12 ancient sons of Israel (Jacob). It was therefore important for that necessary for that number to be completed before Pentecost otherwise an important piece of Biblical symbolism would have been broken. Not doing this would be like Moses striking the Rock a second time. He was kept out of the promised land not just for accidentally contradicting God, but that action spoiled a Prophetic Shadow. Jesus “The Rock” was struck only once and not twice (John 19:34).


Saint Paul’s Typology

Acts 9:15 ►New International Version

But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

One aspect of Biblical numerological symbolism is when you exceed a number. The number seven is the number of perfection. It is the “fullness of time” for an event etc. If you add one to that, you actually symbolize entering into a new age, time or dispensation. And that really is the case for saint Paul being “the apostle of the Gentiles”.


Myth # 3, “The Apostles cast lots to select Matthias. This was an old Testament practice that was obsolete.” “They should have sought a prophetic word”

This objection is nothing more than pure modern western cultural bias at work. Because we like things personalized in our society we assume that is the most advanced and most spiritual way of doing things. Casting lots was a well-accepted practice for seeking God’s Will in ancient times and for making decisions that are free from personal bias. Lots were cast in many situations where interpersonal conflict could happen, (like dividing land) and during various times for the tabernacle and temple ritual ceremonies.

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 18:18

The cast lot puts an end to strife and decides between the mighty ones.

People who make this claim often fail to appreciate how many times “prophetic words” given by various ministers today are inaccurate, or colored by personal bias of the one giving them. It only took me a few years in the Charismatic movement years go to see how people often prophecy out of their own wishes, passions and opinions.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
The evidence of how the anathemas of the original creeds affect the church even today, should be evidence enough of its reality.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Derek Prince taught that the disciples got the Holy Spirit in this instance, as I too hold to that belief. The symbolism in breathing harkens back to the account of mans creations in Genesis when God breathed life into the lifeless form of Adam. Now God was breathing new life into man by His Spirit. John's Gospel is full of connections with the first books of the Bible. The opening of In the beginning. The I AM statements of Jesus. This account of breathing the Spirit into man. Even Jesus conversation with Nicodemus is a connection to Ezekiel 36:25-27
 
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Maria Billingsley

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John 20
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???
Apparently the Holy Spirit had not " fully come" until the day of Pentecost.
"When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they........
Acts 2
 
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Ligurian

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I thought a plain reading of the Greek text might solve it...

It does... I've edited my post to reflect the translation and connect it to other verses.

I there a scholar out there that can comment if the grammar supports the event taking place in the moment ???

Scholar means someone who got it in school, right? That ain't me. :cool:
 
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Paidiske

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I there a scholar out there that can comment if the grammar supports the event taking place in the moment ???

The English translation of the tenses is bad. It would be more accurate to say: "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins will have been forgiven..." that is, they will be simply pronouncing the forgiveness which God will have already given.

In any case Jesus is talking about actions of the disciples (in announcing forgiveness) which are in the future from their point of view at that moment.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I there a scholar out there that can comment if the grammar supports the event taking place in the moment ???

You don't need that. Interlinears do a great job., but even our English translations are put out by knowledgeable people when it comes to this basic stuff.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I also think I should bring up Binding and Loosening when it comes to the previous mentioned sin talk.

Binding and loosing - Wikipedia.


This sort of thing has a lot or Relevance with what happens later with the first Church counsel in the Book of Acts and the decisions regarding the gentiles.
 
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HTacianas

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John 20
19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Does the Greek text support this ???

John is written -quite literally- to answer questions such as "why do we do this"? If someone of the time were to ask "why do we believe the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ" the answer is found in John 6 where Jesus explains the meaning of the Eucharist. The other gospels only describe the institution of the Eucharist without going into its meaning.

The question that is answered by John 20:22,23 is "why does the priest breathe on us to impart the Holy Spirit". Anyone who has ever seen the baptism scene from The Godfather has seen a priest breathe on the child to impart the Holy Spirit. There were at that time two means of doing so. One was through the laying on of hands and the other was by breath. The writer of John, in explaining the origins of the tradition, places it in the context of Christ imparting the Holy Spirit on his apostles. John 20:22 was their "ordination" while 20:23 was the granting of their authority to forgive sins in the place of Christ. Paul exercised that authority at 2 Cor 2:10 when he forgave "...in the person of Christ".
 
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sandman

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You can’t receive something if it’s not available …and it wasn’t available until Pentecost. After all, why would Jesus tell them that…. when Thomas wasn’t even there.

They didn't receive at that time. Jesus (I believe) was instructing them for the day of Pentecost.

The word wind in Act 2:2 can and should be translated breath or breathing …one translation has “as of a heavy breathing”. Whether that is accurate or not I don’t know….but if you have ever been in a temple….having twelve people breathing in and out ...it could certainly be heard throughout.


To have them receive before Pentecost you have to dismiss several scripture …in addition to making up a story about what happened.

These are the things Jesus Stated prior to being taken up

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
 
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Ligurian

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John 20
23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Some claim this didn't happen when He breathed on them.

Same people, same mission... same potential outcome.
Obviously, these guys' sins are being retained:

Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.[15] Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

________________
But this forgiveness applies to brethren forgiving a repentant brother.

Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to Him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?[22] Ιησους saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
 
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