Help with John 20:19-23

[Ligurian]

The evidence of how the anathemas of the original creeds affect the church even today, should be evidence enough of its reality.

Sure, the superstitious ones, maybe.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Ligurian]

You can’t receive something if it’s not available …and it wasn’t available until Pentecost. After all, why would Jesus tell them that…. when Thomas wasn’t even there.

So, your theory rests upon ...denying the first hand witness of John?
...and the inability of Ιησους to repeat John 20:21-23 for Thomas?

If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:

John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Ιησους came.[25] The other Disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust My hand into His side, I will not believe.[26] And after eight days again His Disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Ιησους, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.[28] And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and My God.[29] Ιησους saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

And how poverty-stricken would we be then?

 

[sandman]

So, your theory rests upon ...denying the first hand witness of John?
...and the inability of Ιησους to repeat John 20:21-23 for Thomas?

If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:

John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Ιησους came.[25] The other Disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust My hand into His side, I will not believe.[26] And after eight days again His Disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Ιησους, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.[28] And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and My God.[29] Ιησους saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

And how poverty-stricken would we be then?

I think if you had read my post the information of Thomas would be considered more of a side note. My post was really about the different scripture that Jesus had spoken about the outpouring.

It’s not as if John wrote this from first hand knowledge…this was revelation from Jesus Christ to John some 40 maybe 50 years later….But I do adhere to scripture as God breathed…Which is why I quoted scripture.

And like I stated ….by thinking it took place at this time in John 20:22 …You have to make up a narrative to substantiate different things…. and dismiss several scriptures that point to Pentecost ….

I did offer an alternative to the word wind ….but not conclusively….however ….If you want to hold your theory on the outpouring taking place in John…. Then you do realize that Judas Iscariot also was there…. and would have received the holy spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think the dilemma we have here is pretty simple.

Some folks want to combine the matter of being born again with the matter of being baptised in the spirit. They must then read this passage as being prophetic and depart from the plain text.

Jesus was indwelled by the Holy Spirit before He was empowered for ministry at Baptism.

But the deeper issue is that these verses also evidence the end of the Old Covenant at the Cross when God Himself desecrated the temple by ripping the curtain from the top down.

These verses in giving the disciples the authority to forgive indicate a transfer from the Old Covenant Levitical Priesthood to the New Covenant Priesthood of all believers made effective by the indwelling authority of Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

...in giving the disciples the authority to forgive...

I don't think they do, though. All they give the disciples is the authority to announce the forgiveness God has already made real.

That said, though, I agree that John is indicating a shift in emphasis from temple to Church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't think they do, though. All they give the disciples is the authority to announce the forgiveness God has already made real.

That said, though, I agree that John is indicating a shift in emphasis from temple to Church.

Yes I agree and accept your point - the OT priesthood had the same function.

But do you apply the same reasoning to retaining sins ???

23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Would the indwelling Holy Spirit not make known what was forgiven and what was retained ??

Is this not evidence that they did indeed receive the Holy Spirit as Jesus said?

 

[Paidiske]

But do you apply the same reasoning to retaining sins ???

Yes. It's not our action or decision which makes sins forgiven or retained. We only announce what God has already done.

Would the indwelling Holy Spirit not make known what was forgiven and what was retained ??

That seems at least possible.

Is this not evidence that they did indeed receive the Holy Spirit as Jesus said?

Is there a reason to think that they didn't?

John and Luke present very different views on the coming of the Spirit. I think we probably need to take each on its own terms.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We only announce what God has already done.

How would one make accurate announcements without the Holy Spirit ???

Anyway thanks for your comments.

 

[Ligurian]

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

So, your theory rests upon ...denying the first hand witness of John?
...and the inability of Ιησους to repeat John 20:21-23 for Thomas?

If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:

John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Ιησους came.[25] The other Disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust My hand into His side, I will not believe.[26] And after eight days again His Disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Ιησους, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.[28] And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and My God.[29] Ιησους saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.

And how poverty-stricken would we be then?

I think if you had read my post the information of Thomas would be considered more of a side note. My post was really about the different scripture that Jesus had spoken about the outpouring.

It’s not as if John wrote this from first hand knowledge…this was revelation from Jesus Christ to John some 40 maybe 50 years later….But I do adhere to scripture as God breathed…Which is why I quoted scripture.

And like I stated ….by thinking it took place at this time in John 20:22 …You have to make up a narrative to substantiate different things…. and dismiss several scriptures that point to Pentecost ….

I did offer an alternative to the word wind ….but not conclusively….however ….If you want to hold your theory on the outpouring taking place in John…. Then you do realize that Judas Iscariot also was there…. and would have received the holy spirit.

(the Risen Lord has flesh... called a "side note"... sigh)

Matthew 10:3-7 first-hand knowledge: John and Matthew, called "witnesses" because they were "with Him in the beginning", John 15:26.

But what makes you think Judas Iscariot would have been there? Luke?
So who told Luke that stuff? Because it sure wasn't John or Matthew.

Matthew 26:31-32 Then saith Ιησους unto them, All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.[32] But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Matthew 28:5-10 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Ιησους which was crucified.[6] He is not here, for He is risen as He said. Come see the place where the Lord lay,[7] and go quickly and tell His Disciples that He is risen from the dead. And behold, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see Him: Lo, I have told you.[8] And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy, and did run to bring His Disciples word.[9] And as they went to tell His Disciples, behold, Ιησους met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held Him by the feet and worshipped Him.[10] Then said Ιησους unto them, Be not afraid: go tell My brethren that they go into Galilee and there shall they see Me.

Matthew 28:16 Then The Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Ιησους had appointed them.

Went away from where to Galilee? Had to be someplace close, right?

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the Disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Ιησους and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace unto you.

 

[sandman]

(the Risen Lord has flesh... called a "side note"... sigh)

Matthew 10:3-7 first-hand knowledge: John and Matthew, called "witnesses" because they were "with Him in the beginning", John 15:26.

But what makes you think Judas Iscariot would have been there? Luke?
So who told Luke that stuff? Because it sure wasn't John or Matthew.

Matthew 26:31-32 Then saith Ιησους unto them, All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.[32] But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Matthew 28:5-10 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Ιησους which was crucified.[6] He is not here, for He is risen as He said. Come see the place where the Lord lay,[7] and go quickly and tell His Disciples that He is risen from the dead. And behold, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see Him: Lo, I have told you.[8] And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy, and did run to bring His Disciples word.[9] And as they went to tell His Disciples, behold, Ιησους met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held Him by the feet and worshipped Him.[10] Then said Ιησους unto them, Be not afraid: go tell My brethren that they go into Galilee and there shall they see Me.

Matthew 28:16 Then The Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Ιησους had appointed them.

Went away from where to Galilee? Had to be someplace close, right?

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the Disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Ιησους and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace unto you.

Jhn 20:22 ….which is what started this thread… offers a similar challenge as Mat 27:5 regarding Judas death.

Verse :5 seemingly puts Judas death shortly after the crucifixion. But several verses show Judas alive afterwards …up until Jesus was taken up into the clouds.

In biblical research, when you have several clear verses and one unclear or conflicting verse ….you don’t toss the clear ….in favor of the unclear …you look at the unclear to determine if it’s in translation or misunderstanding….. That is the honest thing to do with Gods Word.

In the case of Mat 27:5 dealing with Judas…. the translation gives what appears to be Judas hanging himself ….and then to match up with Act 1:18 where “his bowels gushed out” commentators have come up with a few scenarios to mesh these two verses.

The problem is ….The Bible clearly shows Judas alive for some time afterwards.

1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:


That was after the resurrection ... and many days before Matthias…. since Matthias was selected after Christ was taken up.

Then you have the two records from Luk 24:33-36 and Jhn 20:19-24 which is a record of the same event…… Luke verse 33 tells us there were 11 ….and John in verse 24 tells us that the person missing was not Judas ….but Thomas.


And then there is Act 1:1-11 ..which shows Judas being present and kind of gives us a time span as to when he really commits suicide.

This is a link on JUDAS from a post I did on CF. It will cover the account of Acts 1:1-11 in addition to going over the possibly misunderstanding of the word “hanged himself” (apanchomai) from Matt 27:5.

 

[Clare73]

They are claiming it didn't happen till much later at Pentecost...

Looks like their word vs. Christ's command. . .

 

[Ligurian]

If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:

John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side, and be not faithless, but believing.

First, let me repent of this portion of the above-quoted post. We know these things about the Risen Lord, because Zechariah already said it. There are no wounds in bodies without flesh.

Zechariah 13:6-9 And I will say to Him, What are these wounds in the middle of Your hands? And He will say, [The] ones which I was struck in the house of My beloved.[7] O broadsword, awaken against My shepherds, and against a man, My fellow-countryman! says [the] LORD Almighty. Strike the shepherd! and the sheep were dispersed. And I will bring My hand upon the (ποιμένας) shepherds.LXX,ABP(Apostolic Bible Polyglot)

Matthew 28:16 Then The Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Ιησους had appointed them.
[...] Matthew 28:1, John 20:19

Jhn 20:22 ….which is what started this thread… offers a similar challenge as Mat 27:5 regarding Judas death.

Verse :5 seemingly puts Judas death shortly after the crucifixion. But several verses show Judas alive afterwards …up until Jesus was taken up into the clouds.

In biblical research, when you have several clear verses and one unclear or conflicting verse ….you don’t toss the clear ….in favor of the unclear …you look at the unclear to determine if it’s in translation or misunderstanding….. That is the honest thing to do with Gods Word.

In the case of Mat 27:5 dealing with Judas…. the translation gives what appears to be Judas hanging himself ….and then to match up with Act 1:18 where “his bowels gushed out” commentators have come up with a few scenarios to mesh these two verses.

The problem is ….The Bible clearly shows Judas alive for some time afterwards.

1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Your "biblical research... ...honest thing" doesn't match my criteria.

1 Corinthians 15:5-7 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.[7] After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1 Corinthians 15:7 Commentaries: then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

Luke 24:10-11 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary [the mother] of James, and other [women that were] with them, which told these things unto the apostles.[11] And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Mary Magdalene and The other Mary...
Matthew 28:1-8 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matthew 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
Matthew 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulcher.
Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever This Gospel shall be preached in all the world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her. (John 11:2)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name. Those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
apoleia = from a presumed derivative of apollumi; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

The real point of Matt.27, in my opinion, is this:

Matthew 27:3-5 Then Judas which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,[4] Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].[5] And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.[6] And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

How much does a sin-offering cost? and what happened to the money?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day.

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out in fulfillment of what had been said, that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit poured out on all flesh. The inauguration of the Church in her sacred and God-given mission. We receive the Holy Spirit through the Means God has given His Church, so we see the promise made in Acts 2:38 that the one who is baptized is forgiven of their sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift being the Spirit Himself), and we see that through the laying on of hands by the Apostles the Holy Spirit is given. This is why the Church baptizes and chrismates, one is received into the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism and are anointed with oil, have hands laid upon them to receive the Holy Spirit.

These rites are not merely symbolic religious rituals, but are rites which couch and contain God's instituted means of grace; this is the ordered ways which God Himself says He acts to accomplish His will and purposes. E.g. There is forgiveness of sins in baptism not because of some magical water power, but because God Himself declares in baptism the forgiveness of sins because here in and with the water is God's word and Christ Himself (see Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, and Colossians 2:12-13).

This is God's ordered way for the Church to operate: There are ministers of Word and Sacrament who are called to preach Law and Gospel, Law to condemn sin and the Gospel to forgive. The Church receives disciples through Holy Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (and this is by the authority of Christ "in the name of Jesus Christ") and being instructed in all the things of Jesus. We come together around Christ present in Word and Sacrament to hear the word preached, we confess our sins and receive the word of our forgiveness, we meet together at the Lord's Table where He gives Himself, His own flesh and blood which was sacrificed for us on the cross. Through this we are sustained in faith, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are being justified and sanctified. As we live lives as disciples in the world, obeying Christ and loving our neighbor; holding on to the hope which we have received, in faith, as we endure whatever trials we may encounter in this fallen age.

In all of this we announce the kingdom of God, the forgiveness of sins, the ruination of death, hell, and the devil, and the hope of the resurrection and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.

This is Christianity. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Sins are forgiven, debts are canceled, death is defeated, and the devil has been brought to ruin. We have life and peace and unity with God in and through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. And what we have received, we announce to the whole world; and the love with which we have been loved we now love all God's creatures as peacemakers and lovers of our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iwbswiaihl]

The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day.

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out in fulfillment of what had been said, that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit poured out on all flesh. The inauguration of the Church in her sacred and God-given mission. We receive the Holy Spirit through the Means God has given His Church, so we see the promise made in Acts 2:38 that the one who is baptized is forgiven of their sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift being the Spirit Himself), and we see that through the laying on of hands by the Apostles the Holy Spirit is given. This is why the Church baptizes and chrismates, one is received into the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism and are anointed with oil, have hands laid upon them to receive the Holy Spirit.

These rites are not merely symbolic religious rituals, but are rites which couch and contain God's instituted means of grace; this is the ordered ways which God Himself says He acts to accomplish His will and purposes. E.g. There is forgiveness of sins in baptism not because of some magical water power, but because God Himself declares in baptism the forgiveness of sins because here in and with the water is God's word and Christ Himself (see Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, and Colossians 2:12-13).

This is God's ordered way for the Church to operate: There are ministers of Word and Sacrament who are called to preach Law and Gospel, Law to condemn sin and the Gospel to forgive. The Church receives disciples through Holy Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (and this is by the authority of Christ "in the name of Jesus Christ") and being instructed in all the things of Jesus. We come together around Christ present in Word and Sacrament to hear the word preached, we confess our sins and receive the word of our forgiveness, we meet together at the Lord's Table where He gives Himself, His own flesh and blood which was sacrificed for us on the cross. Through this we are sustained in faith, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are being justified and sanctified. As we live lives as disciples in the world, obeying Christ and loving our neighbor; holding on to the hope which we have received, in faith, as we endure whatever trials we may encounter in this fallen age.

In all of this we announce the kingdom of God, the forgiveness of sins, the ruination of death, hell, and the devil, and the hope of the resurrection and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.

This is Christianity. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Sins are forgiven, debts are canceled, death is defeated, and the devil has been brought to ruin. We have life and peace and unity with God in and through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. And what we have received, we announce to the whole world; and the love with which we have been loved we now love all God's creatures as peacemakers and lovers of our neighbor. -CryptoLutheran

post: 76819343, member: 293637"]The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day.

It would have been nice if you had shown the verse you think this happened, since you didn't I am wanting to take this statement and the one following it which I will place here because what I am going to show you is when the apostles received the Holy Spirit and from Peters own words that Acts 2:38 is not telling us that the Holy Spirit comes into someone life after they are baptized, but after repentance of the their unbelief and confessing Jesus as their Savior as told us in Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. We both agree with Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Except we would disagree with whether he is saying one receive the Holy Spirit having believed, as I do, or after their being baptized in water(assuming that is what you saying when one receives the Holy Spirit. Before I show you my point in the following, it is too much to enter it in context because it is too long, it would be good for anyone to read from the beginning of the 10th chapter of Acts down to where I will start. Let's go to see what Peter says starting in Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? ” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. This is the same way it happened at Pentecost, the various ethnic groups of people that believed, heard them speaking in their own languages and they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit and then they were baptized as Peter says here.

 

[ViaCrucis]

post: 76819343, member: 293637"]The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day. It would have been nice if you had shown the verse you think this happened, since you didn't I am wanting to take this statement and the one following it which I will place here because what I am going to show you is when the apostles received the Holy Spirit and from Peters own words that Acts 2:38 is not telling us that the Holy Spirit comes into someone life after they are baptized, but after repentance of the their unbelief and confessing Jesus as their Savior as told us in Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast.

How does Ephesians 2:8-9 say that we don't receive the Holy Spirit through God's means? Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't say anything about repentance orf confession of Christ's Lordship, it says that God proactively saves us out of His grace, through faith, which is His gift. It says that God saves us and we don't do anything to earn it, not even the faith through which we are saved is our work it is "the gift of God" as St. Paul says.

God freely justifies us by His grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 5 (the whole chapter), Galatians 3:1-6, and 10-14.

Our justification comes from God purely by His grace, apart from all our works, which is apprehended through faith alone. Faith alone receives the works of God which save, namely Christ's righteousness, His death and resurrection, the forgiveness of sins, etc.

This is the doctrine of Sola Fide. Faith alone. We don't contribute anything, God contributes everything; the wicked and sick sinner is nothing but an empty-handed beggar into whose hands God places the gifts and riches of His mercy, freely for Christ's sake. So that Christ is for us wisdom, righteousness, redemption, sanctification, etc (1 Corinthians 1:28-31). The imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ to unworthy sinners which covers us and reckons us just before God.

We both agree with Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Except we would disagree with whether he is saying one receive the Holy Spirit having believed, as I do, or after their being baptized in water(assuming that is what you saying when one receives the Holy Spirit.

Seeing as repentance is the call of the Christian to lay down their life, take up their cross and follow Jesus repentance is the daily, continual call upon the life of the follower of Jesus.

There is no magical formula here. God works through Word and Sacrament, His Means of Grace, to accomplish His saving work in our lives. So St. Paul says in Romans 10:17 that faith "comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ", so that whenever and wherever the word is (that is, the Holy Gospel) such works and creates faith (recalling that faith is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8, not of ourselves or our energies); and we likewise read in Ephesians 5:26 on how Christ has washed and cleansed His Church through the washing of water with the word (aka Baptism, in which water and word come together). And also seeing as Christ has established His word in His Supper saying, "This is My body broken for you" and "This is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for you", so that the Apostle St. Paul can say in 1 Corinthians 10 that through this cup and bread we partake of Christ's body and blood and of His sacrifice.

The majority of Christians became Christians when they were brought to the baptismal font as infants. Many Christians are converts from later in life. Others still have their own complicated personal stories of faith. But it is always the same grace, the same faith, the same word, the same Lord Jesus and the same Holy Spirit and the same power and work of God. It is always by God's grace, through faith, on Christ's account. For "nobody comes to the Father except by Me" the Lord says. Just look at the Parable of the Laborers, some began early in the day and still others began near the end, but to all receive the same wage. Whether we began our life with Christ as infants fresh out of the womb or whether we find mercy just moments before our dying breath, it is the same grace, the same righteousness, the same precious work and gift of God to all, who works according to His purposes toward the good.

Before I show you my point in the following, it is too much to enter it in context because it is too long, it would be good for anyone to read from the beginning of the 10th chapter of Acts down to where I will start. Let's go to see what Peter says starting in Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 45And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? ” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. This is the same way it happened at Pentecost, the various ethnic groups of people that believed, heard them speaking in their own languages and they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit and then they were baptized as Peter says here.

The context is that there was, in essence, a kind of "second Pentecost" where the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles, just as had happened with the 120 Jewish disciples on the Feast of Pentecost in the beginning. The sign for Peter, the rest of the Apostles and the Church leadership to recognize that the mission of the Church for all nations is for the uncircumcised not only the circumcised; for Gentiles and Jews without discrimination or difference. So that there was no reason to deny the Gentiles Holy Baptism and receive them into the Church as believers in Jesus Christ; and that the Gospel is to truly be preached to all. As St. Paul gives as His thesis statement in Romans 1:16-17, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, so just as it is written, the just shall live by faith." For God's justice in the Gospel, for Jew and Gentile alike, is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ which is received through faith. The Apostle will get into this much more deeply later in the Epistle (see Romans ch. 4 concerning the faith of Abraham).

All in all, I'm not seeing anything that would suggest that God doesn't do what He promised: That the one who is baptized and believes is saved, but whoever believes not isn't (Mark 16:16). Or, if one is uncomfortable with a contentious, probably later addition to Mark's Gospel, then just look to see what Christ says in John 3:5, or what St. Paul writes in Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13, or even in Titus 3:5.

Remembering that the Sacrament of Holy Baptism isn't something you or I do for ourselves. It is the power and work of God. We don't baptize ourselves, rather we receive Baptism, passively. The question that truly presents itself before us is whether or not we are willing to believe that God is faithful in keeping His promises. If God is faithful, and His word cannot be undone (Isaiah 55:11) then when a person is baptized something actually happens.

If baptism is just about getting wet, then it's no different than taking a dip in a lake or taking a shower. But obviously baptism is more than that, it is clearly more than that, because God attaches His own Name to Baptism, "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit". When we are baptized, we are baptized in that Name, the three-fold Name of the Holy Trinity. If nothing else, we ought to revere and honor the Name of God. If God stakes His Name upon something, then we should take it seriously.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iwbswiaihl]

So scripture doesn't seem to set the standard for all people. I simply showed you in scripture that the Holy Spirit comes on a child of God when they get saved, and not when they are baptized. Baptism like good works will follow in the life of all Christian as a sign and assurance that one indeed is in the faith. One cannot teach that one received the Holy Spirit after water baptism and not after first believing and receiving the Holy Spirit and say that is scriptural. The word of God is to be obeyed, it sets the standards. Each has to decide if they will follow the word of God or whatever someone else wants to declare is right, but I do not believe that teaching error is approved by the Lord. We walk by faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. One must decide for themself if they will obey or not, I have no more to say on this topic. Every tub sets on its own bottom. Have a great day, Ps 119:9 thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So scripture doesn't seem to set the standard for all people. I simply showed you in scripture that the Holy Spirit comes on a child of God when they get saved, and not when they are baptized.

And according to Scripture there's no difference between the two. When someone receives baptism they are receiving salvation, they are being saved. See, e.g., 1 Peter 3:21.

Baptism like good works will follow in the life of all Christian as a sign and assurance that one indeed is in the faith.

Good works flow from the life of the Christian out of obedience to God's commandments, as the power and work of God in our lives through sanctification. But Baptism isn't a human work of any kind, it is God's work. The works of men (such as good works in obedience, faith, and love) lack any power to save; or more specifically they lack any power to justify. That is why no one is justified before God on the basis of their works. That is the meaning of Ephesians 2:9 "not of works so that none may boast".

The works of God do save. The works of men do not.

Salvation is the work of God, and as such comes only from God; that is why we say we are saved by grace. Faith, too, is from God's work not our own. Faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) worked and created in us by His word (Romans 10:17) by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

One cannot teach that one received the Holy Spirit after water baptism and not after first believing and receiving the Holy Spirit and say that is scriptural.

Why are you separating baptism from believing and receiving the Holy Spirit? All of these things are connected. And this is biblical, as I have shown with Scripture--and I'd be more than happy to go into further depth if you would like me to do so.

The word of God is to be obeyed, it sets the standards. Each has to decide if they will follow the word of God or whatever someone else wants to declare is right, but I do not believe that teaching error is approved by the Lord. We walk by faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. One must decide for themself if they will obey or not, I have no more to say on this topic. Every tub sets on its own bottom. Have a great day, Ps 119:9 thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

God's commandments are to be obeyed, and there is no justifying power in them. No one is saved--justified--according to their works of obedience.

But the Holy Gospel is not obeyed, it is believed.

Confusing Law and Gospel is arguably the most central error that many Christians get tripped up in. It was this confusion of Law and Gospel that necessitated the Reformation five hundred years ago. As popular religious sentiment at the time had effectively created a system of religious thought and practice which sowed injury to the conscience of the Christian. It was precisely in this environment that it became possible for the wicked abuses of the indulgence sellers. It was this environment that led many to think that they could improve their chances of going to heaven by joining a monastery.

The biblical exegete must rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and that includes knowing the difference between the Law (what God commands) and the Gospel (what God promises). Martin Luther in his 1518 Heidelburg Disputations sums up this hermeneutical principle this way: "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done. Grace says 'trust this' and it is done already."

The Law is to be obeyed, but it remains unobeyed, and on account of this we are held as transgressors of the Law and therefore condemned under the Law. And we are all, everyone, universally sinners, transgressors of the Law: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. For this reason works of obedience cannot justify, the Law cannot render us just before God.

The Gospel is to be believed, and through faith the power and works and gifts of God are received. Christ has already accomplished everything on our behalf. He has by His righteous obedience, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection already accomplished everything for us. He died for not only our sins (i.e. the sins of the elect/believers) but He died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), which is why St. Paul also says in Romans 5:18 that Christ's obedient and perfect work has rendered all people justified. But without the Gospel being preached, without this work being announced and proclaimed to the world, no one may benefit from this.

To use an analogy: the verdict from the court has been decided, and that verdict is "Righteous on Christ's account", but to those in the prison cells this truth can only benefit them if someone goes, with a key in hand, unlocks the prison door and says to them, "You are free". That is precisely what Paul is talking about in Romans 10, "How can they call on Him whom they have not heard? How can they hear unless one is sent to preach?" Thus the Apostle can then say "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" because this Gospel, this announcement of Good News that sinners are forgiven, these Keys of the Kingdom are given from Christ to His Church must go forth to all the world. The Gospel is preached, the keys open the door announcing forgiveness of all our sins in the name of Jesus Christ who has secured them for us by His righteous and atoning work alone.

The Gospel is not obeyed like a set of commandments, that turns the Gospel into more Law and thus robs us of the freedom that is truly found in Christ.

We confess Christ out of faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit--this is why "All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and "if you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and confess with your mouth that He is raised from the dead, you shall be saved". Not as a new set of commandments by which we earn salvation; but because the Gospel comes and announces our forgiveness and freedom and the Holy Spirit creates and works faith to receive this, to then believe and confess this. Because the one who is saved believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth.

I don't "get saved" by saying the right words or believing the right theological propositions. I am saved because the Son of God, the Eternal Logos, became flesh in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, became human. And He lived righteously fulfilling the Law in all its harshness to perfection, and then He died on the cross and won for me forgiveness, peace with God, and nailed to His cross not only my sins but the sins of the whole world; and then after dying and descending into death He rose from the dead, victorious over the powers of hell, death, and the devil. And this work, this full and entire work of His, is given to me and made my own here in the word of the Gospel, which is received-believed through faith.

I didn't "get saved". I was saved two thousand years ago on a cross on a hiill outside of Jerusalem called Golgotha where our Savior hung and bled and died. I am saved and being saved right now because what He did for me is mine by the pure gift of God's grace which I cleave to by faith. And I will continue to be saved and ultimately be saved when, in the end, Christ returns and this death-soaked mortal and sinful body of corruption is raised up and God renews all things.

I have been saved.
I am being saved.
I will be saved.

I receive salvation from God daily by the riches of His mercy which are ever-new. Because Jesus Christ died for me. Because Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Because God gives Himself away in grace and love to wretched worthless sinners such as we are, and says to us, "You belong to Me."

Where and how does God say this? Word and Sacrament.

Obey the commandments of God not because in them you receive merit before God; obey Him because you love Him because He first loved you; and now because you have become a new person in Jesus Christ, go and live as Christ: Love your neighbor as yourself. For the Law and all of its commandments can be summed up in the singular phrase: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14). But your salvation, your righteousness before God and the hope you have in Jesus Christ has nothing to do with what you do at all, but everything to do with what Christ has already done and which is given to you, freely, as pure grace. You contribute nothing to this, not even your "yes".

Say yes to Jesus, not because that's how you are saved. Say yes to Jesus because He has saved you, and because He has taken your sinful heart of stone and softened it into a heart of flesh that can beat with all the love of God which He has for you and the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iwbswiaihl]

And according to Scripture there's no difference between the two. When someone receives baptism they are receiving salvation, they are being saved. See, e.g., 1 Peter 3:21.

Good works flow from the life of the Christian out of obedience to God's commandments, as the power and work of God in our lives through sanctification. But Baptism isn't a human work of any kind, it is God's work. The works of men (such as good works in obedience, faith, and love) lack any power to save; or more specifically they lack any power to justify. That is why no one is justified before God on the basis of their works. That is the meaning of Ephesians 2:9 "not of works so that none may boast".
further depth if you would like me to do so.


I will once again start from below this above, all you have done is shown scripture and turned the words to fit your interpretation without actually reading the word that are written. Baptism only follows salvation, I showed you that in Acts 10, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and Peter said, that is exactly what happened at Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and he then was asking the Jews who said Gentiles could not be baptised, who can hinder these from being baptized. You need to just actually read the words in the text. But I can see the scripture gives you a problem of what you teach not being correct. This is all I am going to say on this subject, each that reads it can be their own judge as to what the scripture says. And one last point, you made it sound as if I said we were not saved by grace through faith, I showed you the same verses you posted as one of my text verses, Eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast, and you then try to say I did not understand the verse by quoting the same text. Every tub sets on its own bottom.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I will once again start from below this above, all you have done is shown scripture and turned the words to fit your interpretation without actually reading the word that are written. Baptism only follows salvation, I showed you that in Acts 10, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and Peter said, that is exactly what happened at Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and he then was asking the Jews who said Gentiles could not be baptised, who can hinder these from being baptized. You need to just actually read the words in the text. But I can see the scripture gives you a problem of what you teach not being correct. This is all I am going to say on this subject, each that reads it can be their own judge as to what the scripture says. And one last point, you made it sound as if I said we were not saved by grace through faith, I showed you the same verses you posted as one of my text verses, Eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast, and you then try to say I did not understand the verse by quoting the same text. Every tub sets on its own bottom.

Question: Using Scripture, what is the purpose and significance of Baptism?

Allow me to share a bit about myself. While I am Lutheran today, that was not always the case. I grew up and was raised in the Evangelical tradition, specifically my first childhood church was a non-denominational church, my school was Baptist, and my second childhood church was Pentecostal (Foursquare specifically). What that means is that I used to believe as you do, or at least very similarly.

The problem, as I came to see it, with many of the things I was raised to believe is that much of the "Biblical doctrines" I had been raised to believe weren't biblical at all. More problematic was that much of what I had been taught growing up was directly contradicted by what the Bible did actually say.

Baptism is an example of this. What I was raised to believe about baptism, and what the Bible actually says about baptism were very different.

I was raised to believe that baptism was merely an outward and public demonstration of faith. The problem with that is two-fold:

1) The Bible never calls baptism an outward and public demonstration of faith.
2) The Bible says things that directly contradict that view.

As I came to study the Bible for myself--which led me to eventually becoming Lutheran--I discovered I had lots of questions about the Bible that the answers I had been given simply didn't seem to fit. Baptism is an example of that, I came to have a lot of questions about baptism on the basis of what the Bible says, and what my parents, teachers, pastors, etc gave me didn't answer in any satisfying way. And over the years I have gotten lots of answers that come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. And frequently it came across as a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid the plain reading of Scripture where it seemed like there was little ambiguity to be found. I recognize that there are plenty of things in the Bible which are difficult and ambiguous, which have no clear or definitive answers; but there are things which are presented in straightforward ways.

For example, when the Bible says that Jesus was raised on the third day, this isn't a puzzle or ambiguous statement. The text is very plain: Three days after Jesus died, He stopped being dead, His body got up and He walked out of the tomb, and the tomb was empty. Jesus' disciples saw the Risen Jesus in the flesh. Though, I do still find Christians who insist on telling me that this isn't what the Bible means. As though Jesus inviting His disciples to touch and feel His body of flesh and bone and saying, "A ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have". I'm sure, of course, that you and I can agree that when Jesus rose from the dead, that His tomb was literally empty, Jesus' body was literally raised back to life, He was raised glorious from the dead.

So then, for example, I crack open my Bible and I see things like Jesus saying that one is born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) and according to the traditions of my former churches I was told this refers to physical birth (of water) and spiritual birth (of the Spirit), claiming that the water is the amniotic fluid. I accepted this for a long time, until I learned that nobody ever believed this in Christianity until modern times. And then, when I gave it a little bit more thought, it didn't make any sense. Why would Jesus say that to be born again a person has to first be physically born? Jesus isn't talking to a fetus, he is talking to Nicodemus. And as a rule of thumb, when we preach the Gospel we are preaching to human beings who have already left the womb. But you know what did make sense? It's that Jesus is talking about baptism, after all Jesus says water. And water means water, it's not code, it's not a puzzle, water in John 3:5 means water, H2O. This made even more sense when I learned about the meaning and significance of water in Judaism, specifically ritual washing (called tevilah in Hebrew) in the context of a ritual bath (called a mikveh in Hebrew).

Allow me to expand upon that a little: Nicodemus, a rabbi, comes to Jesus by the cover of night and flatters Jesus a bit. To which Jesus tells Nicodemus that to enter God's kingdom a person must be born again (the Greek wording here seems to have a double meaning, meaning to be born again and from above). Nicodemus' response to this is to ask how this is possible, "shall a man who is fully grown go back into his mother's womb to be born a second time?" Is Nicodemus being dull? Is his interaction with Jesus here not sincere and so he's trying to play word games with Jesus? Regardless of Nicodemus' intent here, Jesus then continues: In order to see God's kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Jesus then asks Nicodemus, "How are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not know these things?" Why does Jesus expect Nicodemus to understand what being born again means? What in Nicodemus' training as rabbi, "a teacher of Israel", should have clued him in on Jesus' meaning? This becomes very clear when we understand the meaning and significance of "baptisms" (aka washing in water) within Judaism. Jews were expected to "baptize" themselves in a ritual bath (a mikveh) before entering the Temple for worship, to purify themselves; priests did the same when they had to perform Temple duties, and there were lots of reasons to do this. But one of the reasons for ritual bathing in a mikveh was for the purpose of conversion.

You see conversion to Judaism always involved a process, for example male converts had to be circumcised (infants and young children included). But regardless of whether one was male or female, conversion from being a Gentile to being a Jew involved a ritual washing in the mikveh. The meaning of this is still present in Judaism to this day: Through the mikveh one effectively dies to their old life as a non-Jew and is born anew as a Jew, to their new life as a Jew. Does that language sound familiar? It should. That is precisely the kind of language the New Testament uses when talking about Christian Baptism.

And, wouldn't you know it, when you look at what Christians have consistently believed about baptism, and about the meaning of Jesus in John 3:5, what I've said here is precisely what generations of Christians have said from the beginning. Allow me to show you a small sampling covering much of the first thousand years:

"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all." - Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 61 (circa 140 AD)

"It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragments 34, (circa 170-180 AD)

"Wherefore baptism cannot be common to us and to heretics, to whom neither God the Father, nor Christ the Son, nor the Holy Ghost, nor the faith, nor the Church itself, is common. And therefore it behooves those to be baptized who come from heresy to the Church, that so they who are prepared, in the lawful, and true, and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" - Cyprian of Carthage, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics (circa 250 AD)

"Now they take alarm from the statement of the Lord, when He says, 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God;' because in His own explanation of the passage He affirms, 'Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' And so they try to ascribe to unbaptized infants, by the merit of their innocence, the gift of salvation and eternal life, buat at the same time, owning to their being unbaptized, to exclude them from the kingdom of heaven." - Augustine of Hippo, A Treatise on the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, Book 1, Chapter 26 (writing against the Pelagians in 412 AD)

"He redeemed us from corruption through His own passion. He caused the fountain of remission to well forth for us out of His holy and immaculate side, water for our regeneration, and the washing away of our sin and corruption; and blood to drink as the hostage of life ternal. And He laid on us the command to be born again of water and the Spirit, through prayer and invocation the Holy Spirit drawing nigh unto the water. For since man's nature is twofold, consisting of soul and body, He bestowed on us a twofold purification, of water and of the Spirit: the Spirit renewing that part of us which is after His image and likeness, and the water by the grace of the Spirit cleansing the body from sin and delivering it from corruption, the water indeed expressing the image of death, but the Spirit affording the earnest of life." - John of Damascus, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 4, Chapter 9 (circa 730 AD)

You may not consider any of these statements of any importance or value. But I do. For me being a Christian means being part of a community of saints stretching back through history, and the sharing of a common faith. I am merely one link in a chain of faith going backward to Christ and forward also to Christ. From the Apostles themselves till now, and from now until the Lord comes again.

-CryptoLutheran