Help with Ephesians 5: 21-23

[Carl Emerson]

@Carl Emerson: You've selected a verse and section of Scripture that is the subject of much scholarly study & debate and not just in regard to the gender roles but to the language and structure itself. A few observations:

• There is a textual variant in Eph 5:22. Some manuscripts do not have the command to submit which means the mutual submission is carried over from Eph 5:21 and specifically applied to wives. Other manuscripts have either a 2nd person plural command or a 3rd person command.
  • When @Paidiske shows the participle form of the word, she's likely referring to it not being in 5:22 but carried over from 5:21
• There is also discussion as to whether the participle in Eph. 5:21 is imperatival or dependent. IOW, is it a command or a part of the filling of the Spirit commanded in Eph 5:18? IMO it's certainly related to the filling of the Spirit & it is imperatival (commanded). Col 3:18 (Colossians is seen by many if not most as a sister letter to Ephesians - there are many comparisons between the 2 letters) has the command to wives to submit to their husbands. 2 Pet 3:18 has the same command. Titus 2:5 has also been mentioned. Each of these verses use the same root word, "hupotassō".
• Whether a word is a verb or a participle, it can be imperatival. The verb form is easy to know it's a command. The participle will likely require interpreting from context.
• I'm not sure why @By_the_Book says this word has no definition. It's lexically defined as: to cause to be in a submissive relationship, to subject, to subordinate (BDAG). The question really becomes what this submission looks like - is it submission to authority, or is it self-sacrificial, or both, or??? I think when @Clare73 brought Christ into the discussion from context, she may well have been saying to look at Christ as our example and also consider who He is. I'll leave it at that for now and anyone I've referenced can speak for themselves if they so desire.
• As to your specific question about the passive voice: One of the ways to view the passive voice is classified as the Causative/Permissive Passive (Greek Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace). This means the verb implies consent, permission, or cause of the action. Wallace classifies the 2 commands in Eph 5:18 as Causative/Permissive. IOW, one who gets drunk is causing or permitting the drunkenness by drinking wine to excess, and likewise we are permitting or even causing the filling by the Spirit in how we relate to God and to His will. So, these things are not forced, but permitted or even caused. Most of the uses of this word "hupotassō" are passive when applied to people and active when applied to God. An interesting section to sort through is 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Hope that helps.

Excellent response thanks...

In your opinion then the language does not convey that submission is an action in response to force but rather an attitude and the submission is thereby mutual in the case of two married believers?

I am trying to eliminate the notion of subservience as in a master slave relationship.

 

[Clare73]

Excellent response thanks...

In your opinion then the language does not convey that submission is an action in response to force but rather an attitude and the submission is thereby mutual in the case of two married believers?

I am trying to eliminate the notion of subservience as in a master slave relationship.

Is the relationship between Christ and the church a master/slave relationship?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is the relationship between Christ and the church a master/slave relationship?

Of course not and I referenced the need to consider this relationship back in post #18. However some refer to the righteous anger of Jesus to justify inappropriate action.

 

[Clare73]

Of course not and I referenced the need to consider this relationship back in post #18. However some refer to the righteous anger of Jesus to justify inappropriate action.

Do we have an example of Jesus' righteous anger at his bride/wife, the church?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do we have an example of Jesus' righteous anger at his bride/wife, the church?

I can think of several that might be referenced to justify inappropriate action.


Ananias being struck down and the fear that followed.

The young man being excommunicated by Paul.

The spewing out of the lukewarm in Laodocea

The action against Jezebel in Rev 2:23

Those I Love I reprove and discipline Rev 3:19

The expulsion from the marriage supper of the Lamb.



Bearing in mind that this is in the context of His interaction with the assembled ecclesia not the Elect.

 

[GDL]

Excellent response thanks...

In your opinion then the language does not convey that submission is an action in response to force but rather an attitude and the submission is thereby mutual in the case of two married believers?

I am trying to eliminate the notion of subservience as in a master slave relationship.

Honestly, I draw back a bit when we start discussing "force" in matters concerning God. The fact is that He is God, and He commands His creation. We accept or reject who He is and what He commands and teaches. He also punishes and disciplines to degrees that I'm not sure many of us understand. Is this "force"?

With that said, it's an action commanded by God and cooperatively and willingly agreed to by wives who love Him. This is the same God and Creator of all things who has designed and structured His creation to function as He desires in His omniscience and wisdom. Men and women, wives and husbands each have their roles as He has designed.

If I may, I'd rather hear that you are trying to eliminate all that is false and find what is true.

It's easy to see that the husband is given a headship responsibility to love as Christ loved His Ekklesia and gave Himself for her to bring her to a holy and unblemished condition. This is the husband's part of the mutual submission as part of the filling by the Spirit. It's not a simple responsibility and it has been greatly perverted by men.

It's easy to see that wives are given a submission role to this headship. In 5:33 she is commanded to "respect" her husband. This word has more meaning than what we might consider "respect" to mean. It means to fear, to have a profound measure of respect for, to have reverence for.

There is a lot of maturity anticipated in this instruction. There is a lot of contemplation to be done to consider what Christ's Headship truly looks like & what he's done and is doing with and for us to make us holy and unblemished. There is consideration of what mutual submission looks like and what our cooperation with Christ is leading to and how the Christian husband and wife in one body relationship mirrors Christ and His Body. There is also some interesting things in it considering the times it was written and circulated in. Much of the language instructing the husband is comparable to the woman's role in the family. IOW, it's bringing down some of the harsh domineering by the men.

Re: the master slave matter. It's unfortunate that immature people, including Christians, have been the model for this beautiful structure of God's design. Even in the master slave relationship, note the Biblical instruction elsewhere to masters and slaves on how to relate to one another knowing God is our ultimate Master to whom we are all accountable. And yes, there is plenty of instruction in the Text that speaks of us being [willing] slaves, servants of God and of one another. Proper submission and service is a beautiful thing. Again, look at Jesus Christ and consider His instruction of how leaders don't lord it over others but serve.

It's not a matter of having to disprove the master slave concept. It's rather a matter of knowing what that relationship is to look like, how it is to function in godliness and Biblical love, and how beautiful it is to function in our roles of designed, created, and implemented responsibility and duty in mutual submission and service to Him and to one another.

Let the Word speak and teach. But look at it in its entirety and put it all together.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Honestly, I draw back a bit when we start discussing "force" in matters concerning God. The fact is that He is God, and He commands His creation. We accept or reject who He is and what He commands and teaches. He also punishes and disciplines to degrees that I'm not sure many of us understand. Is this "force"?

With that said, it's an action commanded by God and cooperatively and willingly agreed to by wives who love Him. This is the same God and Creator of all things who has designed and structured His creation to function as He desires in His omniscience and wisdom. Men and women, wives and husbands each have their roles as He has designed.

If I may, I'd rather hear that you are trying to eliminate all that is false and find what is true.

It's easy to see that the husband is given a headship responsibility to love as Christ loved His Ekklesia and gave Himself for her to bring her to a holy and unblemished condition. This is the husband's part of the mutual submission as part of the filling by the Spirit. It's not a simple responsibility and it has been greatly perverted by men.

It's easy to see that wives are given a submission role to this headship. In 5:33 she is commanded to "respect" her husband. This word has more meaning than what we might consider "respect" to mean. It means to fear, to have a profound measure of respect for, to have reverence for.

There is a lot of maturity anticipated in this instruction. There is a lot of contemplation to be done to consider what Christ's Headship truly looks like & what he's done and is doing with and for us to make us holy and unblemished. There is consideration of what mutual submission looks like and what our cooperation with Christ is leading to and how the Christian husband and wife in one body relationship mirrors Christ and His Body. There is also some interesting things in it considering the times it was written and circulated in. Much of the language instructing the husband is comparable to the woman's role in the family. IOW, it's bringing down some of the harsh domineering by the men.

Re: the master slave matter. It's unfortunate that immature people, including Christians, have been the model for this beautiful structure of God's design. Even in the master slave relationship, note the Biblical instruction elsewhere to masters and slaves on how to relate to one another knowing God is our ultimate Master to whom we are all accountable. And yes, there is plenty of instruction in the Text that speaks of us being [willing] slaves, servants of God and of one another. Proper submission and service is a beautiful thing. Again, look at Jesus Christ and consider His instruction of how leaders don't lord it over others but serve.

It's not a matter of having to disprove the master slave concept. It's rather a matter of knowing what that relationship is to look like, how it is to function in godliness and Biblical love, and how beautiful it is to function in our roles of designed, created, and implemented responsibility and duty in mutual submission and service to Him and to one another.

Let the Word speak and teach. But look at it in its entirety and put it all together.

John 15
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

Is not our relationship with Him even closer given that we now have His indwelling presence?

Is not this far from a master/slave relationship?

 

[GDL]

John 15
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

Is not our relationship with Him even closer given that we now have His indwelling presence?

Is not this far from a master/slave relationship?

Where do you see indwelling presence here?

At some point, yes, He does call Christians friends. Per the Word, if we have learned all that He heard from our Father, if we know what He is doing, if we do what He commands, then He calls us friends rather than servants. That seems like quite a high bar. As I said before, the Ephesians 5 commands take some maturity. And based upon this John 15 section, Christian wives and husbands will be doing what He commands, including mutual submission in order for them to be His friends.

I hope you see the rub here: Once we're doing what the Master commands, He doesn't call us servants. Yet we are serving doing His will.

And we are servants:

NKJ Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.​

​

You can do a search on servants and slaves. Some wear that as a badge of honor in their relationship with God. Also, in the above verse serving one another is commanded. So, back to Him not calling us servants - He doesn't call us servants when we're serving as He commands.​

​

Do you have a problem with the designed and commanded structural roles of husbands and wives, or just the abuse of tyrants and damage done to the abused? It seems to me you're reading into the Text all the horrors of worldly slavery.

There is some dimensional reasoning to be done here. In one sense there is no male or female in the Body. In another sense there are functional male and female roles to be lived as commanded in this existence. There is an equality in Christians and there are subordinate roles to be lived for His purposes.

Honestly, I don't see how we will ever not see ourselves as serving Him. Even when we're functioning completely in line with His indwelling, we'll be doing so in obedience to Him, which will be our completely natural state of love for Him and one another. Where in this will there ever be a lack of service to Him and mutual service to one other?

 

[Clare73]

I can think of several that might be referenced to justify inappropriate action.
Ananias being struck down and the fear that followed.
The young man being excommunicated by Paul.
The spewing out of the lukewarm in Laodocea
The action against Jezebel in Rev 2:23
Those I Love I reprove and discipline Rev 3:19
The expulsion from the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Are they his bride, the church?

Bearing in mind that this is in the context of His interaction with the assembled ecclesia not the Elect.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are they his bride, the church?

The second and fifth examples are...

Thinking of the encounter with God Isaiah 6 and the similar encounter in Rev 1 The Father has not become more soft and approachable - He changes not. His wrath is often denied on this forum. The matter of His Holiness is often not understood. He really did a number on Paul at conversion.

Personally I don't see our relationship as Master/slave but He does discipline us for our own good.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Where do you see indwelling presence here?

At some point, yes, He does call Christians friends. Per the Word, if we have learned all that He heard from our Father, if we know what He is doing, if we do what He commands, then He calls us friends rather than servants. That seems like quite a high bar. As I said before, the Ephesians 5 commands take some maturity. And based upon this John 15 section, Christian wives and husbands will be doing what He commands, including mutual submission in order for them to be His friends.

I hope you see the rub here: Once we're doing what the Master commands, He doesn't call us servants. Yet we are serving doing His will.

And we are servants:

NKJ Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.​

​

You can do a search on servants and slaves. Some wear that as a badge of honor in their relationship with God. Also, in the above verse serving one another is commanded. So, back to Him not calling us servants - He doesn't call us servants when we're serving as He commands.​

​

Do you have a problem with the designed and commanded structural roles of husbands and wives, or just the abuse of tyrants and damage done to the abused? It seems to me you're reading into the Text all the horrors of worldly slavery.

There is some dimensional reasoning to be done here. In one sense there is no male or female in the Body. In another sense there are functional male and female roles to be lived as commanded in this existence. There is an equality in Christians and there are subordinate roles to be lived for His purposes.

Honestly, I don't see how we will ever not see ourselves as serving Him. Even when we're functioning completely in line with His indwelling, we'll be doing so in obedience to Him, which will be our completely natural state of love for Him and one another. Where in this will there ever be a lack of service to Him and mutual service to one other?

No the reason I have bought the matter up is that Headship must never be forced and submission should never be a justification for treating a spouse as a slave. I wanted to disempower the claim that submission means servitude.

 

[Clare73]

The second and fifth examples are...

Thinking of the encounter with God Isaiah 6 and the similar encounter in Rev 1 The Father has not become more soft and approachable - He changes not. His wrath is often denied on this forum. The matter of His Holiness is often not understood. He really did a number on Paul at conversion.

Personally I don't see our relationship as Master/slave but He does discipline us for our own good.

That would be Father/son.

 

[Lulav]

Hi there,

The matter of understanding the Greek word in reference to submission in this and other passages needs some discussion.

I understand the passive voice in the Greek has no english equivalent.

Can someone clearly and simply explain what was meant so as to correct the common mis-understanding that emphases servitude.

Let's correct together this common error.

Wives and Husbands​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

The same word is used in Luke when describing Jesus when he was twelve and had gone to the temple and left his parents frantic to find him.

41Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.​

 

[GDL]

No the reason I have bought the matter up is that Headship must never be forced and submission should never be a justification for treating a spouse as a slave. I wanted to disempower the claim that submission means servitude.

Maybe we have a disconnect with the word "forced". Until parties are on the are on the same page, thinking alike and functioning in their roles, duties, responsibilities, etc., headship will need to assert its authority to bring all in line. This is a concept of force being asserted. The problem for us is what this force is to be in certain relationships.

It always strikes me as odd when people say God doesn't coerce or force. If His threat of eternal condemnation is not coercion, synonym force, then what is it? If His discipline of His children is not applied force, again, what is it?

I understand what you're getting at, but I try to work from the Text for my language and understanding and not from what goes on in this world. Wives are clearly commanded to be in submission to husbands as to the Lord. Wives and husbands and all of us are clearly commanded to be in submission to one another and to serve one another. We in Christ are clearly equal yet designed and commanded and even gifted to certain roles and responsibilities.

Although I agree with you that the words slavery and servitude are harsh to our eyes and ears, and rightly so based upon how people treat one another, my point is that we are responsible to get our thinking and base our actions on God's Word. He conveys the concepts of willing servitude and wise and benevolent headship, with an understanding of each member of the Body doing its part as designed and placed in the Body by Him knowing that we all must do our part, or the entire body suffers. We can take that concept to a micro level and apply it to a marriage and a family, or we can take it to a macro level and envision an entire world as a functional Body all under His Headship.

I guess I would just point out that the word we're translating as "slave" or "servant" can have a negative or positive sense. On the positive side it means one who is solely committed to another - in total allegiance to another. As I recall the OT instruction, a slave when freed could willingly remain in servitude. We're understandably inserting too much baggage into this concept of servitude. Wives are not slaves to husbands in the baggage sense. We're all slaves to one another and to God in the non-baggage sense. Once we grow up in Christ, He no longer call us slaves but friends but at that point we're serving Him and one another as He - our Master - commands. Do we think He will not assert Himself if one of His friends were to get out of line?

Read @By_the_Book post #8 last sentence again. I fully agree.

 

[GDL]

Personally I don't see our relationship as Master/slave but He does discipline us for our own good.

Again, IMO you're inserting baggage into the Text. I'm quite content to let Him define our relationship however He has chosen to do. He will always be Lord, which can also be translated as Master, which means we are subordinate to Him, always. From what I see, we will always be the created and He the Creator. He will always be God and we will always not be God. He will always be Father and we will always be His Children. In a sense, even a human father is master, and children are not.

IMO again, anyone who does not see the reality of who He is and always will be, and who we are and always will be, is missing a vital concept of Biblical Faith and is still carrying the wayward baggage passed down from the first Adam. We will always be subordinate and in submission. Obedience to Him is love for Him and for one another. This is just how it is and our freedom and joy in existence is in being conformed to this, the only true reality, in mind and action.

 

[GDL]

The same word is used in Luke when describing Jesus when he was twelve and had gone to the temple and left his parents frantic to find him.

41Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. 48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.​

Agreed. A Perfect Child perfectly oriented.

Then during His adult years, I don't think we pay enough attention to how much Jesus pointed to and glorified our Father and conveyed His complete subordination and obedience to Him in thought, speech and action. Perfect Love for our Father lived and exemplified by our first-born brother.

Then read 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 and see what the Perfect Adult Son will be doing for the ultimate benefit of all the creation. Perfect submission to get everything where it was originally designed and intended to be.

Anyone who argues against proper submission to authority does not understand the beauty of it and our designed and intended relationship to our God, Father, Lord, Master, Creator. Proper submission is the only true freedom for His entire Creation. It is the only state where His being Love will be fully realized. Our Lord Jesus Christ - God the Son - willingly and in perfect Faith subordinated Himself to bring this about. We are to follow Him in willing, faithful subordination. This will be our glory. I wish people would get this and stop the rebellion passed from the first Adam. Jesus Christ is the new Adam and our leader in submission. How can we not long for the land where righteousness dwells and show it by our loving, faithful submission to the One to whom it all belongs...

 

[Clare73]

Agreed. A Perfect Child perfectly oriented.

Then during His adult years, I don't think we pay enough attention to how much Jesus pointed to and glorified our Father and conveyed His complete subordination and obedience to Him in thought, speech and action. Perfect Love for our Father lived and exemplified by our first-born brother.

Then read 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 and see what the Perfect Adult Son will be doing for the ultimate benefit of all the creation. Perfect submission to get everything where it was originally designed and intended to be.

Anyone who argues against proper submission to authority does not understand the beauty of it and our designed and intended relationship to our God, Father, Lord, Master, Creator. Proper submission is the only true freedom for His entire Creation. It is the only state where His being Love will be fully realized. Our Lord Jesus Christ - God the Son - willingly and in perfect Faith subordinated Himself to bring this about. We are to follow Him in willing, faithful subordination. This will be our glory. I wish people would get this and stop the rebellion passed from the first Adam. Jesus Christ is the new Adam and our leader in submission. How can we not long for the land where righteousness dwells and show it by our loving, faithful submission to the One to whom it all belongs...

Do we have a past history?

 

[GDL]

Do we have a past history?

?

 

[Clare73]

?

Seems as though I remember you from some time back. . .

 

[GDL]

Seems as though I remember you from some time back. . .

Yes, we do. Sadly, there are always debates, and at times harsh ones. But I appreciate truth and wisdom whenever and wherever I see it. Your recent response (a week or so ago?) to a post I expressed to you my appreciation of was one of the best, succinct, and wise responsive statements I've seen on this forum. No matter any history, I will always try to see the new day & always appreciate and commend expressed truth. The only external thing better than seeing or hearing it expressed by one of my siblings here in Christ will be sitting face-to-face with Him experiencing it always being expressed verbally and in action.