Help with Ephesians 5: 21-23

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

The matter of understanding the Greek word in reference to submission in this and other passages needs some discussion.

I understand the passive voice in the Greek has no english equivalent.

Can someone clearly and simply explain what was meant so as to correct the common mis-understanding that emphases servitude.

Let's correct together this common error.

Wives and Husbands​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

 

[Clare73]

Hi there,

The matter of understanding the Greek word in reference to submission in this and other passages needs some discussion.

I understand the passive voice in the Greek has no english equivalent.

Can someone clearly and simply explain what was meant so as to correct the common mis-understanding that emphases servitude.

Let's correct together this common error.

Wives and Husbands​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Paul provides the models for what he prescribes.
When Paul provides the models, I don't see where the problem lies.

 

[Lulav]

Which word are you having trouble with?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which word are you having trouble with?

The word 'submission' does not mean 'servitude'...

Can someone please explain how the Greek grammar conveys this.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul provides the models for what he prescribes.
When Paul provides the models, I don't see where the problem lies.

Please expand on this - what models ?

 

[Clare73]

Please expand on this - what models ?

As Christ. . .as to Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What I need is one of our Greek scholars to assist with this issue.

A close look at the Greek grammar of the hupotasso verb in Ephesians 5:24 as well as Titus 2:5 and 1 Peter 3:1 and 5 reveals that in each of these cases the hupotasso verb is in parsed in the passive voice.

 

[By_the_Book]

Hi there,

The matter of understanding the Greek word in reference to submission in this and other passages needs some discussion.

I understand the passive voice in the Greek has no english equivalent.

Can someone clearly and simply explain what was meant so as to correct the common mis-understanding that emphases servitude.

Let's correct together this common error.

Wives and Husbands​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

I'm going to address your question but probably not in the way you're expecting or perhaps the way that you want. However before I do I do want you to know a couple of things. I'm not a novice, I've been studying the word for decades extensively and going into the Greek and Hebrew has always been a very important part of my studies. I've known Christ for 45 years, and was married for 37 years to a Christian man until his death this year. I think all of that's important because of what I'm about to say.

I do not believe that it is a coincidence that this word submit in this particular verse has no definition, and it literally has no definition. If you look in the word where versions of the word submit are located or the actual word submit is located you can find meanings for all of those but not in this verse where it references the relationship between a husband and wife.

Why? I absolutely believe because a woman submitting to her husband is defined by her husband and her with God and no one else. What it means for a woman to submit to one man is not going to be the same as what it means for a woman to submit to another man. There is no way to define what proper submission to your husband actually is, that can only be defined by God, the husband, and the wife. I believe this is deliberate on God's part.

A bit of testimony. I was called into full-time ministry and went into full-time ministry in 1994. My husband was a very secure man in his masculinity, he told me and he told everyone else, 'God called her as the primary in ministry, not me, and I'm going to help her to be able to do whatever God wants her to do.' Can you imagine how rare a man it takes to be that secure. He absolutely did not care what anyone thought he knew what God had instructed him to do.

There's been so much misunderstanding and abuse around submission, it's very sad and a lot of people will answer for it one day.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As Christ. . .as to Christ.

Sadly attitudes vary in regard to what is Christlike and what is not.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm going to address your question but probably not in the way you're expecting or perhaps the way that you want. However before I do I do want you to know a couple of things. I'm not a novice, I've been studying the word for decades extensively and going into the Greek and Hebrew has always been a very important part of my studies. I've known Christ for 45 years, and was married for 37 years to a Christian man until his death this year. I think all of that's important because of what I'm about to say.

I do not believe that it is a coincidence that this word submit in this particular verse has no definition, and it literally has no definition. If you look in the word where versions of the word submit are located or the actual word submit is located you can find meanings for all of those but not in this verse where it references the relationship between a husband and wife.

Why? I absolutely believe because a woman submitting to her husband is defined by her husband and her with God and no one else. What it means for a woman to submit to one man is not going to be the same as what it means for a woman to submit to another man. There is no way to define what proper submission to your husband actually is, that can only be defined by God, the husband, and the wife. I believe this is deliberate on God's part.

A bit of testimony. I was called into full-time ministry and went into full-time ministry in 1994. My husband was a very secure man in his masculinity, he told me and he told everyone else, 'God called her as the primary in ministry, not me, and I'm going to help her to be able to do whatever God wants her to do.' Can you imagine how rare a man it takes to be that secure. He absolutely did not care what anyone thought he knew what God had instructed him to do.

There's been so much misunderstanding and abuse around submission, it's very sad and a lot of people will answer for it one day.

Appreciate your reply and willingness to share.

I am hoping that we can have more input from Greek scholars if possible.

 

[By_the_Book]

Appreciate your reply and willingness to share.

I am hoping that we can have more input from Greek scholars if possible.

I hope you find someone you feel is worthy to address your question, I only studied at Princeton Seminary.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi there,

The matter of understanding the Greek word in reference to submission in this and other passages needs some discussion.

I understand the passive voice in the Greek has no english equivalent.

Can someone clearly and simply explain what was meant so as to correct the common mis-understanding that emphases servitude.

Let's correct together this common error.

Wives and Husbands​

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

If you read the entire chapter Paul is really speaking about submitting to one another not just wives to husbands.

Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

 

[Paidiske]

So you're asking specifically about the grammar of hupotassomenoi? It's a present passive participle, nominative plural masculine. No, there isn't an exact English equivalent.

I am not sure exactly what the heart of your question is (I'm a bit confused by the way you've worded it), but I'd make a couple of observations. The "passive" part means that this is not an instruction to go out and make others submit. It describes a desirable state of our own heart - growing out of our relationship with Christ - not something we impose on others.

And it's "to one another." There's a mutuality here, a reciprocity. This is not setting up hierarchy, it's describing the way we ought to relate to one another in Christian community.

I would argue that this is about recognising the ways that we are bound together, and living lovingly and constructively within them, rather than seeking to disrupt systems of relationship.

I don't know if that's helpful to you?

 

[Clare73]

If you read the entire chapter Paul is really speaking about submitting to one another not just wives to husbands.

Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

A different word is used in Tit 2:5. Would that not shed some light on the matter of wives and husbands?

 

[Paidiske]

A different word is used in Tit 2:5. Would that not shed some light on the matter of wives and husbands?

Actually it's a form of the same word. Hupotassomenas; present passive participle, accusative plural feminine.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

A different word is used in Tit 2:5. Would that not shed some light on the matter of wives and husbands?

In reading the entire chapter this describes the qualities of a sound church. Everyone submits to righteousness in their own domain and share in that with others. I'm not sure what word you are referring to?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I hope you find someone you feel is worthy to address your question, I only studied at Princeton Seminary.

Your input very much appreciated.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So you're asking specifically about the grammar of hupotassomenoi? It's a present passive participle, nominative plural masculine. No, there isn't an exact English equivalent.

I am not sure exactly what the heart of your question is (I'm a bit confused by the way you've worded it), but I'd make a couple of observations. The "passive" part means that this is not an instruction to go out and make others submit. It describes a desirable state of our own heart - growing out of our relationship with Christ - not something we impose on others.

And it's "to one another." There's a mutuality here, a reciprocity. This is not setting up hierarchy, it's describing the way we ought to relate to one another in Christian community.

I would argue that this is about recognising the ways that we are bound together, and living lovingly and constructively within them, rather than seeking to disrupt systems of relationship.

I don't know if that's helpful to you?

Thanks Paidiske - Yes I have read around this issue a bit and it seems the translation to 'submission' with the connotations that word carries is rather unfortunate.

I am inclined to take the position in relation to Christ and the Church that leaders must not 'Lord it over' - and bring that sentiment into the marriage environment.

The fact that each reference is in the passive voice would also seem to indicate a state rather than an action.

I also think that reference back to Eden needs to be done cautiously as the redemption in Christ is a more excellent outcome in my view.

 

[GDL]

@Carl Emerson: You've selected a verse and section of Scripture that is the subject of much scholarly study & debate and not just in regard to the gender roles but to the language and structure itself. A few observations:

• There is a textual variant in Eph 5:22. Some manuscripts do not have the command to submit which means the mutual submission is carried over from Eph 5:21 and specifically applied to wives. Other manuscripts have either a 2nd person plural command or a 3rd person command.
  • When @Paidiske shows the participle form of the word, she's likely referring to it not being in 5:22 but carried over from 5:21
• There is also discussion as to whether the participle in Eph. 5:21 is imperatival or dependent. IOW, is it a command or a part of the filling of the Spirit commanded in Eph 5:18? IMO it's certainly related to the filling of the Spirit & it is imperatival (commanded). Col 3:18 (Colossians is seen by many if not most as a sister letter to Ephesians - there are many comparisons between the 2 letters) has the command to wives to submit to their husbands. 2 Pet 3:18 has the same command. Titus 2:5 has also been mentioned. Each of these verses use the same root word, "hupotassō".
• Whether a word is a verb or a participle, it can be imperatival. The verb form is easy to know it's a command. The participle will likely require interpreting from context.
• I'm not sure why @By_the_Book says this word has no definition. It's lexically defined as: to cause to be in a submissive relationship, to subject, to subordinate (BDAG). The question really becomes what this submission looks like - is it submission to authority, or is it self-sacrificial, or both, or??? I think when @Clare73 brought Christ into the discussion from context, she may well have been saying to look at Christ as our example and also consider who He is. I'll leave it at that for now and anyone I've referenced can speak for themselves if they so desire.
• As to your specific question about the passive voice: One of the ways to view the passive voice is classified as the Causative/Permissive Passive (Greek Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace). This means the verb implies consent, permission, or cause of the action. Wallace classifies the 2 commands in Eph 5:18 as Causative/Permissive. IOW, one who gets drunk is causing or permitting the drunkenness by drinking wine to excess, and likewise we are permitting or even causing the filling by the Spirit in how we relate to God and to His will. So, these things are not forced, but permitted or even caused. Most of the uses of this word "hupotassō" are passive when applied to people and active when applied to God. An interesting section to sort through is 1 Cor 15:27-28.

Hope that helps.

 

[Paidiske]

• When @Paidiske shows the participle form of the word, she's likely referring to it not being in 5:22 but carried over from 5:21

Correct. My understanding is that the most likely original text omits the verb from verse 22.