Help with Christ overcoming death?

[~Anastasia~]

Hello all,

I replied to a non-Christian who has been reading about what Christ accomplished on the Cross and has sincere questions. I'm not really equipped to give more than basic answers, so I wanted to ask your help?

With your permission, I will share any suggestions, or if you might like to post there yourselves?

Thank you for any help.

I will share his request for more info, but you might want to read his other few posts in the thread for more context. Thank you so much!

Do you actually have any good sources on the historical Christus Victor theories of atonement? Good suggestions for reading? Gustav Aulén has a pretty thorough book on it I think but he seems to believe it was sin, death AND the devil himself that Christ achieved victory over, not just death.

So if you have any specific criticisms of it, my major source for a lot of this stuff is Christus Victor: An Historical Study of the Three Main Types of the Idea of Atonement

 

[~Anastasia~]

Speaking of which, I'm happy to receive correction myself, if necessary. I've read some, but to be honest, most of my understanding of this topic probably comes right from the Liturgy.

 

[rusmeister]

As soon as "atonement" is mentioned, my guard goes up.

 

[~Anastasia~]

As soon as "atonement" is mentioned, my guard goes up.

Then I wish I hadn't used it. My fault.

Just trying to be of help. I think he is sincere, and asking questions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the Paschal homily of St John Chrysostom.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

As soon as "atonement" is mentioned, my guard goes up.

Yes, as we tend to focus on the incarnation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

the Paschal homily of St John Chrysostom.

Yes, I'm sure it's mostly the Paschal homily and troparion where I have gotten much of my understanding.

I will pass it along.

But being that this is a non-Christian trying to understand Christianity, I am concerned that the richness we find in few words, knowing all that go along with it, will be lost without all the surrounding context.

Or maybe it's too much commentary causing his misunderstandings so far (such as God somehow "owing" Satan and redeeming us from Satan).

Some things I understand, but I'm not really qualified to explain and discuss deeply.

Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, as we tend to focus on the incarnation.

And even more so the Resurrection, I would say. But that does not mean we would ignore the lessons of the Crucifixion. All work together, and in some ways the importance of this one or that are found within another.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't separate one from another but tend more to consider the whole. Creation has important interplay with the Incarnation as well, for example.

 

[truefiction1]

Christ's Crucifixion has more about the removal of guilt from our fallen psyche than restitution paid to God. If the Father accepts the Sacrifice it is because it is reasonable to do so (because it is the Sacrifice of Thanksgiving by One Who Loves the Father as He is Loved by the Father), but never demanded or required by God as a condition of our salvation. The Cross points to God (i.e. God is Love), Whose forgiveness (Love, mercy) endures forever (i.e. is infinite). It is God's Love/forgiveness that opens the door for reconiliation and restoration to Communion. The Cross symbolizes Divine Love/forgiveness. The Cross is also the symbol of God's humility. The passion of false pride produces false guilt (shame), whereas humility (poverty of spirit) frees one of the oppression of false guilt, allowing one to be Loved and to Love others in turn. It is the sin of self-love, which causes the generation of all sinful passions, that separates us from the Love of God. It is Divine Love (selfless Love) that unites us with God in Communion. Our own cross is the Way of abolishing self-love in ourselves. The Resurrection of ourselves to Eternal Life in Communion with God is the only reason good enough to "take up our own Cross" to the extent needed for the abolition of self-love and impure passions that keep us estranged from God. For "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17)

Still, Redemption or the atonement or Salvation is a Great Mystery of the Church. It isn't something one comes to understand by abstract rationalizations nor learns the meaning of through words. Salvation is the very personal experience of Communion with the Life Giving Trinity. This Communion is Mystical, which is to say that it transcends our rational mind's capacity to circumscribe with definitions.

I would tell this seeker that you're talking to that if he or she truly seeks to find out what salvation is, that they have to take up their own cross in order to receive the gift of experiencing Salvation for themselves by the Live Giving grace (uncreated energies) of God. It is "known" in Communion, not from Christian philosophy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, I'm sure it's mostly the Paschal homily and troparion where I have gotten much of my understanding.

I will pass it along.

But being that this is a non-Christian trying to understand Christianity, I am concerned that the richness we find in few words, knowing all that go along with it, will be lost without all the surrounding context.

Or maybe it's too much commentary causing his misunderstandings so far (such as God somehow "owing" Satan and redeeming us from Satan).

Some things I understand, but I'm not really qualified to explain and discuss deeply.

Thank you.

that was just the first one that popped into mind. there are a ton of homilies from the Fathers in addition to St John on Pascha as well.

not to mention the Paschal Canon, written by St John of Damascus

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmmm. You've given me something to think about too. Thank you, True.

Christ's Crucifixion has more about the removal of guilt from our fallen psyche than restitution paid to God. If the Father accepts the Sacrifice it is because it is reasonable to do so (because it is the Sacrifice of Thanksgiving by One Who Loves the Father as He is Loved by the Father), but never demanded or required by God as a condition of our salvation. The Cross points to God (i.e. God is Love), Whose forgiveness (Love, mercy) endures forever (i.e. is infinite). It is God's Love/forgiveness that opens the door for reconiliation and restoration to Communion. The Cross symbolizes Divine Love/forgiveness. The Cross is also the symbol of God's humility. The passion of false pride produces false guilt (shame), whereas humility (poverty of spirit) frees one of the oppression of false guilt, allowing one to be Loved and to Love others in turn. It is the sin of self-love, which causes the generation of all sinful passions, that separates us from the Love of God. It is Divine Love (selfless Love) that unites us with God in Communion. Our own cross is the Way of abolishing self-love in ourselves. The Resurrection of ourselves to Eternal Life in Communion with God is the only reason good enough to "take up our own Cross" to the extent needed for the abolition of self-love and impure passions that keep us estranged from God. For "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17)

I wonder ....

So, I'm trying (always really) to absorb Orthodox teaching, and make THAT my framework rather than lying Orthodox Theology atop the frame of what I had formerly.

But I really shy away from discussing the Atonement sometimes because when I remove all I had before, I'm left with a few questions. Certain things make very deep sense to me, and I understand and experience it, but if I'm trying to explain it like building a bridge to someone else, I feel like I'm either leaving gaps, or forced to add (which of course I don't want to do), or I'm somehow else deficient in my explanation.

I've asked myself, for example, if God is ABLE to forgive sins simply on the basis of Him desiring to. And while I think many Protestants would strongly disagree, I think He can.

I was going to ask more, but really that question is at the heart of it.

But then what do we say about the Old Testament sacrifices that were tied to forgiveness?

And what do we say about "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins?" (I actually have an idea about that one, but I don't wish to put it forward - if I happen to be on the right track I'd rather hear confirmation from the Church.)

Still, Redemption or the atonement or Salvation is a Great Mystery of the Church. It isn't something one comes to understand by abstract rationalizations nor learns the meaning of through words. Salvation is the very personal experience of Communion with the Life Giving Trinity. This Communion is Mystical, which is to say that it transcends our rational mind's capacity to circumscribe with definitions.

Now this I understand. Though it's funny, theologies and words and explanations are much easier things to deal with, and that was much of what I relied on before becoming Orthodox. Though there was a part of me with some of this experience, but I'd also learned that not everything can be trusted. Within the safe framework of the Church, however, this became so strongly true to me that almost immediately after I was baptized and started participating in the sacramental life of the Church, my focus shifted almost completely to this.

I would tell this seeker that you're talking to that if he or she truly seeks to find out what salvation is, that they have to take up their own cross in order to receive the gift of experiencing Salvation for themselves by the Live Giving grace (uncreated energies) of God. It is "known" in Communion, not from Christian philosophy.

Well, I do think you're right. I'm not sure a seeker is in a position to understand, but I am sure I'm in no position to judge my idea on that. So yes, I will share it, thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

that was just the first one that popped into mind. there are a ton of homilies from the Fathers in addition to St John on Pascha as well.

no to mention the Paschal Canon, written by St John of Damascus

I think I might like to look for more of those writings myself. Maybe that would make good reading for Lent, or after.

I will mention them as well.

Thanks, Matt.

 

[truefiction1]

I've asked myself, for example, if God is ABLE to forgive sins simply on the basis of Him desiring to. And while I think many Protestants would strongly disagree, I think He can.

I was going to ask more, but really that question is at the heart of it.

Christ's commandments compel us to be, by grace, as God is by nature. Christ commands the forgiveness of our enemies to the extent that we are not to hold anyone's sins against them. God is infinite Love, and His Mercy (which is one and the same thing as Love and Forgiveness) endures forever. If He calls us to not judging and condemning anyone, how can it be that He ever does?

But then what do we say about the Old Testament sacrifices that were tied to forgiveness?

And what do we say about "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins?" (I actually have an idea about that one, but I don't wish to put it forward - if I happen to be on the right track I'd rather hear confirmation from the Church.)

These "rites of sacrifice" flow out of an "existential guilt" that exists in the collective subconscious of mankind ever since "sin [has] reigned in death". The "conscience" convicts us and fills us with a drive to be restored to an original, lost state of blessedness. Mankind has always used "religion" (which means "to rebind" earth to heaven), with sacrificial rites that offer the most valuable thing that can be offered to the gods, or to God -- the life of a creature is the thing of ultimate value it can offer as the peace offering to heaven in the attempt to have paradise restored on earth.

The "Nazi" religion, for example, resorted to "sacrificing" (offering the very lives of) the entire race of the Jews to their gods (false ideologies) in order to bring about paradise on earth by ridding the earth of the filth (dehumanized people) that had been barring its realization.

The militant atheist revolutionaries who ushered in Communism also knew that this could not be done without large scale violence (the shedding of blood). Religious faith stood in the way of ushering in the utopian paradise (the false promise of communism), so they murdered and destroyed as many and as much of the Church as they could for awhile.

You're of course familiar with the "flower wars" of the Aztecs? Mankind has always offered sacrifices, because of what is in our conscience due to the lot of an intelligent, self aware being in the condition of mortality.

Point is, there "is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood". But this is not because God requires the blood. Oh no! Certainly not the blood of His Only Begotten Son! The need to shed blood is a need that exists within our conscience -- which is a guilty conscience because we have acquired the "knowledge of good and evil" separately from Communion with God. God Himself fulfills this need of ours by Sacrificing Himself for us. This is Love. We are to follow Him by doing the same (taking up our own cross).

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I might like to look for more of those writings myself. Maybe that would make good reading for Lent, or after.

I will mention them as well.

Thanks, Matt.

you could also look at prayers for the departure of the soul, the Akathist to Christ the conqueror of death, the panakhida, the funeral service, etc.

 

[buzuxi02]

66. When this one came from heaven to earth for the sake of the one who suffers, and had clothed himself with that very one through the womb of a virgin, and having come forth as man, he accepted the sufferings of the sufferer through his body which was capable of suffering. And he destroyed those human sufferings by his spirit which was incapable of dying. He killed death which had put man to death.

67. For this one, who was led away as a lamb, and who was sacrificed as a sheep, by himself delivered us from servitude to the world as from the land of Egypt, and released us from bondage to the devil as from the hand of Pharaoh, and sealed our souls by his own spirit and the members of our bodies by his own blood.

68. This is the one who covered death with shame and who plunged the devil into mourning as Moses did Pharaoh. This is the one who smote lawlessness and deprived injustice of its offspring, as Moses deprived Egypt. This is the one who delivered us from slavery into freedom, from darkness into light, from death into life, from tyranny into an eternal kingdom, and who made us a new priesthood, and a special people forever.....

101. He rose up from the dead, and cried aloud with this voice: Who is he who contends with me? Let him stand in opposition to me. I set the condemned man free; I gave the dead man life; I raised up the one who had been entombed.
102. Who is my opponent? I, he says, am the Christ. I am the one who destroyed death, and triumphed over the enemy, and trampled Hades under foot, and bound the strong one, and carried off man to the heights of heaven, I, he says, am the Christ.
103. Therefore, come, all families of men, you who have been befouled with sins, and receive forgiveness for your sins. I am your forgiveness, I am the passover of your salvation, I am the lamb which was sacrificed for you, I am your ransom, I am your light, I am your saviour, I am your resurrection, I am your king, I am leading you up to the heights of heaven, I will show you the eternal Father, I will raise you up by my right hand.
(Melito of Bishop of Sardis, Homily On the Pascha 165A.D.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

66. When this one came from heaven to earth for the sake of the one who suffers, and had clothed himself with that very one through the womb of a virgin, and having come forth as man, he accepted the sufferings of the sufferer through his body which was capable of suffering. And he destroyed those human sufferings by his spirit which was incapable of dying. He killed death which had put man to death.

67. For this one, who was led away as a lamb, and who was sacrificed as a sheep, by himself delivered us from servitude to the world as from the land of Egypt, and released us from bondage to the devil as from the hand of Pharaoh, and sealed our souls by his own spirit and the members of our bodies by his own blood.

68. This is the one who covered death with shame and who plunged the devil into mourning as Moses did Pharaoh. This is the one who smote lawlessness and deprived injustice of its offspring, as Moses deprived Egypt. This is the one who delivered us from slavery into freedom, from darkness into light, from death into life, from tyranny into an eternal kingdom, and who made us a new priesthood, and a special people forever.....

101. He rose up from the dead, and cried aloud with this voice: Who is he who contends with me? Let him stand in opposition to me. I set the condemned man free; I gave the dead man life; I raised up the one who had been entombed.
102. Who is my opponent? I, he says, am the Christ. I am the one who destroyed death, and triumphed over the enemy, and trampled Hades under foot, and bound the strong one, and carried off man to the heights of heaven, I, he says, am the Christ.
103. Therefore, come, all families of men, you who have been befouled with sins, and receive forgiveness for your sins. I am your forgiveness, I am the passover of your salvation, I am the lamb which was sacrificed for you, I am your ransom, I am your light, I am your saviour, I am your resurrection, I am your king, I am leading you up to the heights of heaven, I will show you the eternal Father, I will raise you up by my right hand.
(Melito of Bishop of Sardis, Homily On the Pascha 165A.D.)

Thanks, buzuxi, in reading this you have put ME back on the right track of thinking.

I almost have to create a separate way of thinking in mind to try to answer the questions asked by the person, and I now understand why. Not that that us either here nor there. And I also understand why my thoughts come from the Liturgy. And further, I think I answered his not as I should have, in a strictly theoretical and defined sense, but I am reminded of the TOTALITY which we receive from the Liturgy, which I think he was actually closer to, having read the book I mentioned, certainly than I was seeking to offer definitions.

Eye-opener for ME, but that particular revelation might not be helpful to anyone else. However, I think what you offered in this homily might be. I will pass it along as well. Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

you could also look at prayers for the departure of the soul, the Akathist to Christ the conqueror of death, the panakhida, the funeral service, etc.

Thanks Matt. I'm not sure if I know that Akathist or not, so I will include it as well. I've heard the others, I think, and read them over at various times, so I guess that has formed my thinking as well. This whole thread has been helpful to me ... I think I will see about including all these things in a file in case they are needed in the future. Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Christ's commandments compel us to be, by grace, as God is by nature. Christ commands the forgiveness of our enemies to the extent that we are not to hold anyone's sins against them. God is infinite Love, and His Mercy (which is one and the same thing as Love and Forgiveness) endures forever. If He calls us to not judging and condemning anyone, how can it be that He ever does?

These "rites of sacrifice" flow out of an "existential guilt" that exists in the collective subconscious of mankind ever since "sin [has] reigned in death". The "conscience" convicts us and fills us with a drive to be restored to an original, lost state of blessedness. Mankind has always used "religion" (which means "to rebind" earth to heaven), with sacrificial rites that offer the most valuable thing that can be offered to the gods, or to God -- the life of a creature is the thing of ultimate value it can offer as the peace offering to heaven in the attempt to have paradise restored on earth.

The "Nazi" religion, for example, resorted to "sacrificing" (offering the very lives of) the entire race of the Jews to their gods (false ideologies) in order to bring about paradise on earth by ridding the earth of the filth (dehumanized people) that had been barring its realization.

The militant atheist revolutionaries who ushered in Communism also knew that this could not be done without large scale violence (the shedding of blood). Religious faith stood in the way of ushering in the utopian paradise (the false promise of communism), so they murdered and destroyed as many and as much of the Church as they could for awhile.

You're of course familiar with the "flower wars" of the Aztecs? Mankind has always offered sacrifices, because of what is in our conscience due to the lot of an intelligent, self aware being in the condition of mortality.

Point is, there "is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood". But this is not because God requires the blood. Oh no! Certainly not the blood of His Only Begotten Son! The need to shed blood is a need that exists within our conscience -- which is a guilty conscience because we have acquired the "knowledge of good and evil" separately from Communion with God. God Himself fulfills this need of ours by Sacrificing Himself for us. This is Love. We are to follow Him by doing the same (taking up our own cross).

Thank you, True.

This is what my heart has been telling me also. If I understand correctly. That much of what we are considering has been done for OUR benefit, in order to make us understand and appreciate the grievous injury of sin, to help offset our conscience on the matter in order to help us accept God's forgiveness, to illustrate to us, and so on.

I have long been uncomfortable with the idea that God NEEDS the blood in order to forgive. Which means the whole idea of what I had been taught all my life had serious flaws within it. It was even more forensic than I have come to see.

I wonder if a life is long enough to sort out the thinking fully and properly. At least I'm working on it. I'm not "there" yet. But I have come to completely reject the idea of God being constrained. It's just figuring out exactly how much is attached to that idea, and what to do with all of that.

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not answering right away. I wanted to think about it more carefully.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's funny, I don't know all that the person I mention us thinking, but it's entirely possible that what is in his mind over this matter is closer to true than what is in my mind, especially when I step out of the lived expression of the Church for a moment, and try think in purely theological terms.

Rus, I wonder if possibly that's what you meant when you said red flags go up when someone mentions "Atonement"?

Anyway, thanks all for being instructive to ME, and helping me align things just a bit better. I really do think this will take the rest of my life, and then some.

God be with you all, my brothers!

 

[truefiction1]

You probably are already aware, @Anastasia, that Father Patrick Henry Reardon (of the Ancient Faith Radio ministries) has published a book about this very topic, which is to be the first of several volumes on the Mystery of Redemption. The book looks like this:

Available at Amazon and elsewhere. I'd like to get a copy myself but I've so much to do at present.