Help me understand this

[kcmonseysr]

You need to use better techniques, perhaps the techniques you learned at Penn State University to obtain your engineering degree, so that I may learn from you; as well as everyone else on this forum.

You are right Ken; it wasn't a simple question . I admit I was trying to trap you (Matt 22:15); but you failed to fall into my spider-web argument. Ok Ken, let us review your crudentials; Petroleum and Natural Gas Engineering degree from Penn State University; State College, PA, average admissions standards (taken from PSU website) 3.5-3.97 GPA and 1750-2000 SAT; these are modest academic requirements; probably higher for engineering majors. Last year over 57K students applied to PSU, about 52% accepted, which means (please help me with my math I have never taken calculus course like you) over 20K students were denied admission! What does all this mean? Everybody can not attend PSU as a engineering major; everybody that attends PSU may not graduate with an engineering degree which requires "mastery" in math, engineering and science. Of course the Wall Street Journal (Corporate Recruiters) rank PSU as #1 to prepare students for the job market; according to the Wall Street Journal PSU was compared to ivy league schools and outperformed them. For the sake of our discussion; I will accept the Wall Street Journal oppinion concerning PSU. If anyone wants to to be contentious about PSU's "outstanding" reputation in the academic community, they are welcomed to visit the PSU State College website.

WOW!!! Mine ego doth runneth over. Perhaps I should be charging you for my insights??? ​

Ken, I want you to read these scriptures as an engineer, not as an uneducated gentile. (Are we sure that this is not a redundant phrase?? ) You have the ability to analyze and interpet data; Pharisee Shaul acknowledges that sin entered the world through Adam (Rom 5:12); Pharisee Shaul says "without law there is no sin" (Rom 5:13); for sin is the violation of the law (1 John 3:4). The law from nature existed during the creation account (Gen 1:1); sin existed since genesis; the law (pertaining to certain things) was not passed down until 400 years later;

1. It would seem maybe that either one or both of us need to clarify our use of the word "law" each time we use it? It can, and does seem to, get confusing - not just with you but in general .

In Judaism the word “Torah” may mean:
(1) Chumash (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses); or
(2) That plus the Prophets and the Writings, i.e., the Tanakh (known by Christians as the Old Testament; see 4:4-10 N); or
(3) That plus the Oral Torah, which includes the Talmud and other legal materials; or
(4) That plus all religious instruction from the rabbis, including ethical and aggadic (homiletical) materials.
(from Jewish New Testament Commentary - David H. Stern.)​

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Again, read the scriptures like an engineer from PSU, not as an ignorant gentile. You are born from jewish ancestry (Phil 3:5); you are well prepared for our discussion; don't give me an answer I would hear from a tv evangelist that does not honor torah or unborn from jewish ancestry.

1. Not for nothing: my Jewish bloodline is very thin at best - mainly from old family stories and nothing that would give me the chutzpah to claim that I'm a Jew. I am quite content to leave such a determination in the hands of HaShem on That Day, and meanwhile to just travel alongside the camp of the Jews.
2. Oh Gevalt!!! You compare me to a tv evangelist?? That HURTS...​

What do you mean by "underneath the law"? I thought we were discussing "dead to the law"?

I meant it in the sense of being under the authority of the the 613 mitzvot. Again, we really do need to clarify how we use the term "law" here???​

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The quote did not answer my question. If your professor at PSU asked you a engineering question in class, do you cut and paste a quote to answer his question? (No, but then the computers that I trained on at that time used only FORTRAN ) Ken, I need you interpet the quote; so that this quote can be put into daily practice. Do you think ancient Israel used "quotes" or engineers to build Solomon's temple? If the temple is to be rebuilt, engineers like Ken will be needed to rebuild the temple!

It's nice to be needed , but really, if engineers of my skill level were to be used to rebuild the Temple... not a pretty sight...​

Human religious sacrifices were always living (Daniel in the lion's den-Dan 6, 3 hebrew boys in the fiery furnace-Dan 3);

Are your REALLY implying that the god of the Chaldeans is the God of Israel? I hope not!​

animal sacrifices were always killed before being burned in the fire. The angel(s) appeared to Moses in fire (Ex 3:2); Abraham was breaking the rules when the angel told him to stop!

I don't know where you get this idea from, but, sorry, I WILL call it nonsense!​

That is why Abraham broke the rules, so his son could live; while the ram die!

Did Abraham see the ram before or after the angel spoke to him?​

Was not Isaac's body bound on the altar for death?

That would very clearly seem to have been Abraham's intent - combined with Abraham's faith in God that He could and would raise Isaac back from death.​

Rom 7
24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death?
Rom 12
I exhort you, therefore, brothers, in view of God’s mercies, to offer yourselves as a sacrifice, living and set apart for God. This will please him; it is the logical “Temple worship” for you.

Abraham had the knife in his hand;

You are combing two concepts (worship practices); that should never be combined; again they were thrown into the fire alive.
You are refering to animal sacrifices not human sacrifice.

Hey my friend, it is rather you who are combining worship practices by mixing in some alleged (pagan) rules of those who offered sacrifices to false gods. The case of Abraham and Isaac is a very unique and pivotal one and to even imply that any rules made up by false gods do or even should apply here in any way, shape, or form is coming close to being even worse than just wrong. Show me from the Word where Abraham violated any rule of HaShem by his intention to use a knife to kill Isaac.​

This was such an amazing answer to my double "entendre" question. I am very impressed.
Yes indeed! Did Abraham have a knife in his hand?

Seems clear. Even as it is written:

Then Avraham put out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.​

Gen 22:10 CJB​

P.S. Mercy. If you could maybe cut back on the number of questions that you pose at one time???? If you get me into trouble with the moderators, I will not be thinking warm and kindly thoughts about you...

 

[mercy1061]

WOW!!! Mine ego doth runneth over. Perhaps I should be charging you for my insights???
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I should be charging everyone else for interviewing you. Maybe you should be paid a commission for my services.

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(Are we sure that this is not a redundant phrase??

Maybe

1. It would seem maybe that either one or both of us need to clarify our use of the word "law" each time we use it? It can, and does seem to, get confusing - not just with you but in general .

In Judaism the word “Torah” may mean:
​

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(1) Chumash (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses); or
​

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(2) That plus the Prophets and the Writings, i.e., the Tanakh (known by Christians as the Old Testament; see 4:4-10 N); or
(3) That plus the Oral Torah, which includes the Talmud and other legal materials; or
(4) That plus all religious instruction from the rabbis, including ethical and aggadic (homiletical) materials.
(from Jewish New Testament Commentary - David H. Stern.)
​

Excellent definition.

1. Not for nothing: my Jewish bloodline is very thin at best - mainly from old family stories and nothing that would give me the chutzpah to claim that I'm a Jew. I am quite content to leave such a determination in the hands of HaShem on That Day, and meanwhile to just travel alongside the camp of the Jews.

Good enough.
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2. Oh Gevalt!!! You compare me to a tv evangelist?? That HURTS...

Not really, I just heard a tv evangelist say that the law came 430 years later; misunderstanding the scriptures. I doubt he graduated from PSU.
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I meant it in the sense of being under the authority of the the 613 mitzvot. Again, we really do need to clarify how we use the term "law" here???

The definition you posted will be just fine; the torah; the torah begins with genesis.

(No, but then the computers that I trained on at that time used only FORTRAN )

What about the engineering, math or science theory?

It's nice to be needed , but really, if engineers of my skill level were to be used to rebuild the Temple... not a pretty sight...
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What about the markers or measurements? I am not sure what engineer's duties are in construction of a temple or tent.

Are your REALLY implying that the god of the Chaldeans is the God of Israel? I hope not!

You knew the answer before you asked the question! Of course not! However the worship of the chaldeans may influence how Abraham worship the G-d of Israel. For some it may be difficult to completely erase their history in their minds.

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I don't know where you get this idea from, but, sorry, I WILL call it nonsense!

Why? You dont see a pattern in history? I guess history is considered an art not a science.

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Did Abraham see the ram before or after the angel spoke to him?
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Does it matter when Abraham saw the ram? The ram was already there! We walk by faith, not by sight.

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That would very clearly seem to have been Abraham's intent - combined with Abraham's faith in God that He could and would raise Isaac back from death.
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Abraham removed Isaac from the altar.

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Hey my friend, it is rather you who are combining worship practices by mixing in some alleged (pagan) rules of those who offered sacrifices to false gods.

Abraham's forefathers worshipped idols; so it would be disingenuous for us to interpet the facts while ignoring his ancestry. Much in the same way, I refuse to ignore your jewish ancestry in our discussion. Your ancestry may affect how you view things.

The case of Abraham and Isaac is a very unique and pivotal one and to even imply that any rules made up by false gods do or even should apply here in any way, shape, or form is coming close to being even worse than just wrong. Show me from the Word where Abraham violated any rule of HaShem by his intention to use a knife to kill Isaac.

The angel told him to stop. G-d gave the command to Abraham to offer his son as a burnt offering (with location, without instructions); Abraham already knew how to build an altar (Gen 12:7) and offer burnt offerings. Abraham possibly learned the torah from his ancestors.

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Seems clear. Even as it is written:
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<B>

Then Avraham put out his hand and took the knife to kill his son.
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</B>Gen 22:10 CJB
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Yes indeed.

P.S. Mercy. If you could maybe cut back on the number of questions that you pose at one time???? If you get me into trouble with the moderators, I will not be thinking warm and kindly thoughts about you...

I did not ask that many questions this time.
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[Laureate]

"Are your REALLY implying that the god of the Chaldeans is the God of Israel? I hope not!"

Your statement is an acknowledgement that there is a deity besides Elohym, when there is no other deity!

After Israel worshiped Baal (lit. The Lord), YHWH revealed that it was Himself that was blessing them, and He expressed His discontent for them referring to him as Baal (the Lord);

In the scriptures, Baal (the Lord) God is the name and title used by the Babylonians, and Canaani to acknowledge the chief deity, which as you know is the same name and title used by the vast majority of Christianity today "Lord God".

Nothing new, if one's love for truth is found lacking, He hands them over to believe a lie of equal proportion.

Was the deity of the hills a false deity? No! though their ascription of Him fell short of the truth;

His response to their ignorance? He clearly showed them that He was also the deity of the plains.

Who was the deity that put Nebuchadnezer on the throne? Yet you say this same deity was not the deity of Babylon!

Elohym performs a work, and a man falls short in his acknowledgement thereof;

The only false deities that exist are among us human beings, for we are Elohym says the scriptures, yet our acknowledgement and representation of our divinity is fraudulent!

Otherwise there is no such thing as a false deity, only a false acknowledgement of a true deity.

"Are your REALLY implying that the god of the Chaldeans is the God of Israel? I hope not!"

Though "God" is scripturally an inapropriate title of Elohym, (simply because it is a Babylonian and Canaani way of acknowledging the True Deity, we were told time and again don't do that, i.e. mention the name of the deities of the Gentiles),lthe answer is Yes! For Israel called on the name Baal, the same is to say Adonai, or Lord!

Yet I will agree to this, the knowledge which the Babylonians believed of the True deity, is not the same knowledge which Israel believes concerning the True deity.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Not really, I just heard a tv evangelist say that the law came 430 years later; misunderstanding the scriptures. I doubt he graduated from PSU.

430 years later than what? Did he happen to be speaking in the context of this passage? Just mildly curious...

Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the Torah, which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the legal part of the Torah, it no longer comes from a promise. But God gave it to Avraham through a promise. Gal 3:17-18 CJB​

The definition you posted will be just fine; the torah; the torah begins with genesis.

Maybe, maybe, this is where some of confusions between you and I begins? I didn't post a definition. I posted FOUR definitions . Here they are again in DS's own words:

In Judaism the word “Torah” may mean:
(1) Chumash (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses); or
(2) That plus the Prophets and the Writings, i.e., the Tanakh (known by Christians as the Old Testament; see 4:4-10 N); or
(3) That plus the Oral Torah, which includes the Talmud and other legal materials; or
(4) That plus all religious instruction from the rabbis, including ethical and aggadic (homiletical) materials.
- (from Jewish New Testament Commentary - David H. Stern.)​

Come on, mercy - did you maybe notice the word "or" in this definition. You cannot just throw out the word 'Torah' without telling me which of the four meanings you are intending - and then say that you disagree with my response when I chose the wrong one . My Aussie used to enjoy fetching a Frisbee, but when we got a bit 'cute' with her and threw out two at a time, she would just sit and look at us like as if to ask if we were foolish enough to think that she would try to chase both at once. How much more if we had thrown four at once ?​

What about the engineering, math or science theory?

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What about the markers or measurements? I am not sure what engineer's duties are in construction of a temple or tent.

Me either. I never even thought of it until you made the suggestion.​

You knew the answer before you asked the question! Of course not! However the worship of the chaldeans may influence how Abraham worship the G-d of Israel. For some it may be difficult to completely erase their history in their minds.

Why? You dont see a pattern in history? I guess history is considered an art not a science.

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Does it matter when Abraham saw the ram? The ram was already there! We walk by faith, not by sight.

Abraham's forefathers worshipped idols; so it would be disingenuous for us to interpet the facts while ignoring his ancestry. Much in the same way, I refuse to ignore your jewish ancestry in our discussion. Your ancestry may affect how you view things.

The angel told him to stop. G-d gave the command to Abraham to offer his son as a burnt offering (with location, without instructions); Abraham already knew how to build an altar (Gen 12:7) and offer burnt offerings. Abraham possibly learned the torah from his ancestors.
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I did not ask that many questions this time.
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Technically true. But did you not raise a lot of them??

Can we just somehow sort out the use of the word 'Torah' or 'Law' each time we are using it before I try to tackle more??​

 

[kcmonseysr]

"Are your REALLY implying that the god of the Chaldeans is the God of Israel? I hope not!"

Your statement is an acknowledgement that there is a deity besides Elohym, when there is no other deity!

No more than Jeremiah may be said to have done so :

This word came to Yirmeyahu from Adonai: 2 “Stand at the gate of the house of Adonai and proclaim this word: ‘Listen to the word of Adonai, all you from Y’hudah who enter these gates to worship Adonai! 3 Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: “Improve your ways and actions, and I will let you stay in this place. 4 Don’t rely on that deceitful slogan, ‘The temple of Adonai, the temple of Adonai — these [buildings] are the temple of Adonai.’ 5 No, but if you really improve your ways and actions; if you really administer justice between people; 6 if you stop oppressing foreigners, orphans and widows; if you stop shedding innocent blood in this place; and if you stop following other gods, to your own harm; 7 then I will let you stay in this place, in the land I gave to your ancestors forever and ever. 8 Look! You are relying on deceitful words that can’t do you any good. 9 First you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, offer to Ba‘al and go after other gods that you haven’t known. 10 Then you come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, ‘We are saved’ — so that you can go on doing these abominations! Jer 7:1-11 CJB
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I hope that this clears up any confusion.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

430 years later than what?

You should be asking yourself that question; you claimed the law came some 400 years later; taken from your earlier post:

The Law didn't come until some 400 years later. So your question here is meaningless.

You even attempted to dismiss my question; claiming the law came 430 years later;

Did he happen to be speaking in the context of this passage? Just mildly curious...

Curiousity killed the cat (2 Peter 3:16). If the cat had not become curious would he have climbed higher to his own destruction?

<B>

Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the Torah, which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the legal part of the Torah, it no longer comes from a promise. But God gave it to Avraham through a promise. Gal 3:17-18 CJB
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</B>
Pharisee Shaul is simply saying here, that the law could not be enforced until 430 years later. Some feel today, they do not have to honor sabbath; since Nehemiah is dead; there are no governmental authorities to enforce the sabbath law. The Spirit gave the law before Nehemiah or the prophets came to enforce the law.

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Maybe, maybe, this is where some of confusions between you and I begins? I didn't post a definition. I posted FOUR definitions . Here they are again in DS's own words:

In Judaism the word &#8220;Torah&#8221; may mean:
​

(1) Chumash (the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses); or
(2) That plus the Prophets and the Writings, i.e., the Tanakh (known by Christians as the Old Testament; see 4:4-10 N); or
(3) That plus the Oral Torah, which includes the Talmud and other legal materials; or
(4) That plus all religious instruction from the rabbis, including ethical and aggadic (homiletical) materials.
- (from Jewish New Testament Commentary - David H. Stern.)
​

Does it matter how many definitions are attached to a word; the words surrounding that word determine it's definition. New definitions are always being added to the dictionary. No books are being added to the torah.
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Come on, mercy - did you maybe notice the word "or" in this definition. You cannot just throw out the word 'Torah' without telling me which of the four meanings you are intending - and then say that you disagree with my response when I chose the wrong one .

If I say I am wearing a blue shirt, it is understood that the word blue describes the color of my shirt. I need not tell you that blue means color; everyone knows that blue is the color of my shirt.

If I say I am feeling blue today; everyone knows that I mean I am feeling sad. No one thinks that I am describing the color of my shirt! It is up to you to determine when I am describing the "color" of my shirt or describing my feelings or emotions. It would be redundant for me to say blue means color; immediately after I tell you that my shirt is blue.

My Aussie used to enjoy fetching a Frisbee, but when we got a bit 'cute' with her and threw out two at a time, she would just sit and look at us like as if to ask if we were foolish enough to think that she would try to chase both at once. How much more if we had thrown four at once ?

Would you allow Aussie to fetch each frisbee; one at a time; until Aussie brings all five frisbies to us? The torah has five books; yet everyone knows that the torah is singular no "s"; I have four fingers and one thumb on each hand; I have two hands. How many fingers do you have?

I also have five toes; on each foot; two feet. How many toes do you have? The torah has five books; do you agree? Ken, we must walk by faith; with five toes and five fingers on one hand and one foot.

Technically true. But did you not raise a lot of them??

Can we just somehow sort out the use of the word 'Torah' or 'Law' each time we are using it before I try to tackle more??

The torah has five books; yet you may use history or ancestry as supplemental material. I do not use defintions to gain understanding from the scriptures; I must examine the words surrounding that particular word in question; how that word is used in the sentence. Then I will know the definition for that word if it is published in the dictionary. The torah existed prior to the dictionary.

 

[kcmonseysr]

You should be asking yourself that question; you claimed the law came some 400 years later; taken from your earlier post:
You even attempted to dismiss my question; claiming the law came 430 years later;
Curiousity killed the cat (2 Peter 3:16). If the cat had not become curious would he have climbed higher to his own destruction?

Pharisee Shaul is simply saying here, that the law could not be enforced until 430 years later. Some feel today, they do not have to honor sabbath; since Nehemiah is dead; there are no governmental authorities to enforce the sabbath law. The Spirit gave the law before Nehemiah or the prophets came to enforce the law.​

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Does it matter how many definitions are attached to a word; the words surrounding that word determine it's definition. New definitions are always being added to the dictionary. No books are being added to the torah.
​

If I say I am wearing a blue shirt, it is understood that the word blue describes the color of my shirt. I need not tell you that blue means color; everyone knows that blue is the color of my shirt.
If I say I am feeling blue today; everyone knows that I mean I am feeling sad. No one thinks that I am describing the color of my shirt! It is up to you to determine when I am describing the "color" of my shirt or describing my feelings or emotions. It would be redundant for me to say blue means color; immediately after I tell you that my shirt is blue.
Would you allow Aussie to fetch each frisbee; one at a time; until Aussie brings all five frisbies to us? The torah has five books; yet everyone knows that the torah is singular no "s"; I have four fingers and one thumb on each hand; I have two hands. How many fingers do you have?
I also have five toes; on each foot; two feet. How many toes do you have? The torah has five books; do you agree? Ken, we must walk by faith; with five toes and five fingers on one hand and one foot.
The torah has five books; yet you may use history or ancestry as supplemental material. I do not use defintions to gain understanding from the scriptures; I must examine the words surrounding that particular word in question; how that word is used in the sentence. Then I will know the definition for that word if it is published in the dictionary. The torah existed prior to the dictionary.

So, mercy, how many hairs are on your head??? They are counted, and surely you must have knowledge of the exact number!!! Do share!

So, how does stating opinion as if it were established fact ["Pharisee Shaul is simply saying here..."], and how does your refusing to clarify how you are using a very loaded and complex word ["Torah"] at any given time - make for a discussion???

Which curious cat continues climbing higher - you or me???

Please be careful, mercy.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[mercy1061]

So, mercy, how many hairs are on your head??? They are counted, and surely you must have knowledge of the exact number!!! Do share!

So, how does stating opinion as if it were established fact ["Pharisee Shaul is simply saying here..."], and how does your refusing to clarify how you are using a very loaded and complex word ["Torah"] at any given time - make for a discussion???

Which curious cat continues climbing higher - you or me???

Please be careful, mercy.

Blessings,

Ken

Mercy knowing the number of hairs on top of his head; your oppinion or fact? Pharisee Shaul serving as Pharisee, is a fact. As Pharisee he had the legal authority to enforce the law; another fact, his journey on the road near Damascus. Pharisee Shaul as Pharisee has the legal obligation to both teach and enforce the law.
If the curious cat had simply humbled himself and climbed down the chimney, instead he continued to climb upward, falling down to the first floor to his own destruction.

 

[Avodat]

Longest thread hijack I've seen!

 

[daq]

Longest thread hijack I've seen!

And since the thread is now all jacked up I may as well take a stab at it!

If I say I am wearing a blue shirt, it is understood that the word blue describes the color of my shirt. I need not tell you that blue means color; everyone knows that blue is the color of my shirt.

If I say I am feeling blue today; everyone knows that I mean I am feeling sad. No one thinks that I am describing the color of my shirt! It is up to you to determine when I am describing the "color" of my shirt or describing my feelings or emotions. It would be redundant for me to say blue means color; immediately after I tell you that my shirt is blue.

Would you allow Aussie to fetch each frisbee; one at a time; until Aussie brings all five frisbies to us? The torah has five books; yet everyone knows that the torah is singular no "s"; I have four fingers and one thumb on each hand; I have two hands. How many fingers do you have?

I also have five toes; on each foot; two feet. How many toes do you have? The torah has five books; do you agree? Ken, we must walk by faith; with five toes and five fingers on one hand and one foot.

The torah has five books; yet you may use history or ancestry as supplemental material. I do not use defintions to gain understanding from the scriptures; I must examine the words surrounding that particular word in question; how that word is used in the sentence. Then I will know the definition for that word if it is published in the dictionary. The torah existed prior to the dictionary.

"Torat" is plural and "Sefer Torat Elohim" is used in Joshua 24:26 which leads into the next point which is that there are some who disagree with your statement that Torah is five books because of, 1) Joshua 24:26 which implies that the book is Torah, 2) the high probability that "Moses" likely did actually write some of the Psalms beginning with Psalm 90 and continuing forward ten Psalms, (which would then include the Psalm where he states that he himself is a kohen, Psalm 99:6a) and, 3) because some also include the book of Job as written by "Moses" but the teaching is frowned upon by the majority because of the difficulties presented with the untrue statements made by the "three friends" of Job, (as the seventh rib of every man has likewise "three friends" attached to the bottom of it). However the problem of the statements made by the three friends of Job really does not present much more difficulty than what is already presently included in the portions containing the episodes of Balak and Balaam. If then there are indeed seven books, like seven "ribs" which are the "unbroken bones" of the Word sort of speak; then Devarim would the "fifth rib", (where the blade of the spear tip went in to "the house of the side" as likewise foretold in the episodes of Joab the azazel and his slayings with a blade to the "fifth" [rib]). If then there be seven ribs which are the seven books of Sefer Torat Elohim, and there be a Lamb with seven stars in his right hand and seven eyes and seven horns and seven lamps which are seven Spirits of God before the throne; then five fingers is not enough for a true Kohen Gadol because he must be capable of sprinkling the blood of the Atonement seven times to cast out all seven devils from the man, (each in his or her appointed times).

Luke 11:20-26 KJV
20. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22. But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

There, now the thread is thoroughly derailed!

 

[mercy1061]

And since the thread is now all jacked up I may as well take a stab at it!



"Torat" is plural and "Sefer Torat Elohim" is used in Joshua 24:26 which leads into the next point which is that there are some who disagree with your statement that Torah is five books because of, 1) Joshua 24:26 which implies that the book is Torah, 2) the high probability that "Moses" likely did actually write some of the Psalms beginning with Psalm 90 and continuing forward ten Psalms, (which would then include the Psalm where he states that he himself is a kohen, Psalm 99:6a) and, 3) because some also include the book of Job as written by "Moses" but the teaching is frowned upon by the majority because of the difficulties presented with the untrue statements made by the "three friends" of Job, (as the seventh rib of every man has likewise "three friends" attached to the bottom of it). However the problem of the statements made by the three friends of Job really does not present much more difficulty than what is already presently included in the portions containing the episodes of Balak and Balaam. If then there are indeed seven books, like seven "ribs" which are the "unbroken bones" of the Word sort of speak; then Devarim would the "fifth rib", (where the blade of the spear tip went in to "the house of the side" as likewise foretold in the episodes of Joab the azazel and his slayings with a blade to the "fifth" [rib]). If then there be seven ribs which are the seven books of Sefer Torat Elohim, and there be a Lamb with seven stars in his right hand and seven eyes and seven horns and seven lamps which are seven Spirits of God before the throne; then five fingers is not enough for a true Kohen Gadol because he must be capable of sprinkling the blood of the Atonement seven times to cast out all seven devils from the man, (each in his or her appointed times).

Luke 11:20-26 KJV
20. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22. But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

There, now the thread is thoroughly derailed!

Mercy and Ken were having a discussion concerning the law, the law being enforced 430 years later. Ken posted definitions for torah, I agreed with ALL of his posted definitions, including those five books. He asked me what I meant by torah, I explained to him I was only refering to five books. Of course, I do not limit torah to just five books, as I told Ken, I have two hands.

 

[kcmonseysr]

Mercy and Ken were having a discussion concerning the law, the law being enforced 430 years later. Ken posted definitions for torah, I agreed with ALL of his posted definitions, including those five books. He asked me what I meant by torah, I explained to him I was only refering to five books. Of course, I do not limit torah to just five books, as I told Ken, I have two hands.

Aw, mercy. Don't get too upset on my account. Ken was done anyway - and if I may speak for him, he was very glad to see both Avodat and daq jump in at this point - each of them offering words of true wisdom.

However, you did leave "Mercy and Ken's" discussion with some words of wisdom of your own:

"If the curious cat had simply humbled himself and climbed down the chimney, instead he continued to climb upward, falling down to the first floor to his own destruction."​

Think about it mercy.

Blessings,

Ken

 

[yonah_mishael]

And since the thread is now all jacked up I may as well take a stab at it!



"Torat" is plural and "Sefer Torat Elohim" is used in Joshua 24:26 which leads into the next point which is that there are some who disagree with your statement that Torah is five books because of, 1) Joshua 24:26 which implies that the book is Torah, 2) the high probability that "Moses" likely did actually write some of the Psalms beginning with Psalm 90 and continuing forward ten Psalms, (which would then include the Psalm where he states that he himself is a kohen, Psalm 99:6a) and, 3) because some also include the book of Job as written by "Moses" but the teaching is frowned upon by the majority because of the difficulties presented with the untrue statements made by the "three friends" of Job, (as the seventh rib of every man has likewise "three friends" attached to the bottom of it). However the problem of the statements made by the three friends of Job really does not present much more difficulty than what is already presently included in the portions containing the episodes of Balak and Balaam. If then there are indeed seven books, like seven "ribs" which are the "unbroken bones" of the Word sort of speak; then Devarim would the "fifth rib", (where the blade of the spear tip went in to "the house of the side" as likewise foretold in the episodes of Joab the azazel and his slayings with a blade to the "fifth" [rib]). If then there be seven ribs which are the seven books of Sefer Torat Elohim, and there be a Lamb with seven stars in his right hand and seven eyes and seven horns and seven lamps which are seven Spirits of God before the throne; then five fingers is not enough for a true Kohen Gadol because he must be capable of sprinkling the blood of the Atonement seven times to cast out all seven devils from the man, (each in his or her appointed times).

Luke 11:20-26 KJV
20. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22. But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

There, now the thread is thoroughly derailed!

No, &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1514; torat is certainly NOT plural. Does this derail your analysis? It is construct, whereas &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492; torah is absolute (non-construct). The plural for both contract and absolute is &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1493;&#1514; torot, using the common &#1470;&#1493;&#1514; -ot ending for feminine plural nouns and adjectives.

 

[daq]

No, &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1514; torat is certainly NOT plural. Does this derail your analysis? It is construct, whereas &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492; torah is absolute (non-construct). The plural for both contract and absolute is &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1493;&#1514; torot, using the common &#1470;&#1493;&#1514; -ot ending for feminine plural nouns and adjectives.

You mean it is not "The Book of the Laws of Elohim"? Thanks Yonah.
But no it does not appear to derail the analysis of daq, (when in third person Rome, ya know).

 

[daq]

No, &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1514; torat is certainly NOT plural. Does this derail your analysis? It is construct, whereas &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492; torah is absolute (non-construct). The plural for both contract and absolute is &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1493;&#1514; torot, using the common &#1470;&#1493;&#1514; -ot ending for feminine plural nouns and adjectives.

PS ~ Actually if you think about it that strengthens the case that Joshua wrote Torah!
Perhaps it was he that finished Deuteronomy by recording the death of Moses?

Joshua 24:25-27 KJV
25. So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, [Cepher Torat Elohim] and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.
27. And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

 

[kcmonseysr]

You mean it is not "The Book of the Laws of Elohim"? Thanks Yonah.
But no it does not appear to derail the analysis of daq, (when in third person Rome, ya know).

Smarty Pants

 

[mercy1061]

You mean it is not "The Book of the Laws of Elohim"? Thanks Yonah.
But no it does not appear to derail the analysis of daq, (when in third person Rome, ya know).

I guess book is not plural because of the laws? Hand is singular because of five fingers? There is no s in torah.

 

[mercy1061]

PS ~ Actually if you think about it that strengthens the case that Joshua wrote Torah!
Perhaps it was he that finished Deuteronomy by recording the death of Moses?

Joshua 24:25-27 KJV
25. So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, [Cepher Torat Elohim] and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.
27. And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Joshua was Moses servant? You argue a moot point.

 

[yonah_mishael]

What would strengthen the point that Josiah (or his scribe, Shaphan) and not Joshua wrote the Torah? Archaeology? Terminological anachronism? Conceptual contingency? I cannot imagine either Moses or Joshua writing the Torah. Both claims seem far off the mark.

 

[daq]

Joshua was Moses servant? You argue a moot point.

If that is what you understood from the Zechariah passage that was quoted then I fear you do not even understand what the true argument concerns. Yeshua is the servant of Elohim in that passage and likewise the "Witness Stone" which "heard all the words" of Joshua 24, (which Stone has the seven eyes which are seven lamps which are the seven Spirits of Elohim because the Father gave unto him the Spirit without measure). Yeshua is thus likewise "the man whose name is the Branch" of Zechariah, the Tzemach Tzedek Branch of Righteousness, who likewise builds the Temple of YHWH. You can also read of him in Yeshayah 45.

What would strengthen the point that Josiah (or his scribe, Shaphan) and not Joshua wrote the Torah? Archaeology? Terminological anachronism? Conceptual contingency? I cannot imagine either Moses or Joshua writing the Torah. Both claims seem far off the mark.

When you become surnamed there will be two of you but one of you must die, (that your "better half" may live). You may even be commanded to write it all down when you are ended. And if so for all we know you might even have been surnamed Moses II at that time, (Joshua) or Ezra, Josiah, or Shaphan, (that is if you overcome in your appointed time and receive the white stone as opposed to the black stone of strong delusion and the blackness of darkness forever). And if so I want a copy of the book!