Help me understand these prayers

[ZiSunka]

In the 17th and 18th centuries in France, there was a school of thought known as the Berullians, which focused on, of all the mysteries of Christ's life, the Incarnation, so they dedicated their prayers to "Jesus living in Mary", as he did during the nine months between Gabriel's annunciation to Mary and Christmas. This prayer looks to be in that style. It's asking that just as Jesus physically dwelt in Mary, so too may he now spiritually dwell within us.

[/i]

I'm not quite sure what this one means. Catholics, of course, believe that Mary is the mother of the Son, since from her was created His human body, but I've never seen her referred to as Mother of the Holy Ghost. I suppose you could think of it as since the Holy Ghost was sent into the world through the Son, He was, in a way, sent through Mary, since without Mary there would be no Jesus.


Mary is the highest of all creation, above the plants, and animals, and all other men, and even above the angels. She was the one specially chosen by God to be the mother of His Son, and she was the one preserved from sin throughout her life, and she was the one taken into heaven body and soul at the end of her earthly life. Although the angels are superior to men in many ways, in dignity and rank, Mary is above even the archangels.

Thanks! I think your answers make the most sense to me. You're wonderful for answering them as clearly as you did!

 

[ZiSunka]

Spouse of the Holy Spirit? I've never heard of this concept. Please explain.

 

[Michelina]

For someone who sincerely wants to understand Catholic Mariology, Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer) is a good place to start:

http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0224/_INDEX.HTM

After reading that, Catholic prayers to Mary can be properly understood. One has to understand the Doctrine before one can understand the praxis. I am glad that you really want to understand, lambslove.

 

[ZiSunka]

Thanks Michelina! There are so many prayers to Mary that I have a million questions. I look at your link for the answers!

 

[Paul S]

Spouse of the Holy Spirit? I've never heard of this concept. Please explain.

Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb through the Holy Ghost, so the Third Person can be said to be Mary's spouse. It also explains why, although she was legally married to Joseph, the two never had sexual relations.

Although you didn't ask about Mary's perpetual virginity, I'll share anyway.

Ezechiel has this to say, in Chapter 44:

And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut for the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it.

This was the gate which only the Messiah could enter. The Church uses this verse in the Office of the Immaculate Conception, applying it to Mary.

Thanks! I think your answers make the most sense to me. You're wonderful for answering them as clearly as you did!

Awww... thanks.

 

[Miss Shelby]

I still don't understand this. What does it mean to be queen of heaven?

In Jewish history, the mother of the king was always known as the the queen.

Michelle

 

[Wolseley]

I have never heard of Our Blessed Mother Mary being called Mother of the Holy Spirit.

If you can look at that prayer which calls her Mother of the Holy Spirit and tell us the publisher of the prayer, we would appreciate it.

I, too, would like to know the title of the prayer book, the title of the prayer, the author (if known), and the publication information. Standard bibliographic format will be fine.

 

[Miss Shelby]

haha... well in going back and reading I see that point was already very well made.

Michelle

 

[Monica02]

Lamslove,

What Rite was your mother? I also have never heard of Mary referred to as the Mother of the Holy Spirit and I am thinking perhaps this might be an Eastern Rite term.


Monica

 

[thereselittleflower]

But isn't the church also called the Bride of Christ? Anyway, I think you are right that this is not the church, because a woman can't give birth to her husband, right? But I don't see how this is Mary. Don't the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel? If not, what do they represent to Catholics?

Besides, at the end of the chapter it talks about the woman having other offspring, and I thought Mary had no other children. It would seem that you are right and it is those who keep Christ's commandments, but when was Mary almost swallowed up by a dragon or saved from a flood by the earth opening its mouth The symbolism seems to be clearly about Israel in the past and future times to me, but I find your interpretation interesting.

Prophecy can have several levels . . . .the "woman" can be Mary, Israel, and the Church all at the same time . . .

Look at it this way . . .

Go back to Genesis 3:15 where God gives the first promise of "the woman" . . . this is the first messianic prophecy . .

Now compare it to Rev. . . . "a woman" . . .


Genesis 3:15 speaks about her "seed" (which fortells the virgin birth) . . Revelation . . her 'man child" . . . .

Mary is of Israel . . .and so represents all Israel in God's preparation for the coming of the Messiah here in Revelation . . She is the culmination of all of God's prepretory work in and through Israel . . . So she stands for Israel here . . .. She is the Jewel of Israel . . Israel's crowning acheivement in anticipation of the coming of the messiah . . . though hidden, unknown . ..and as such, remained unspoiled . . .


Mary stands for the Church . .. for she was the first to believe, she was the first disciple, she was the first to serve God made man, Jesus . . .She was the first to whom the coming of the Messiah was announced, she who said "Let it be done unto me according to they word" . . .. She ws the yeilded vessel through whom God entered matter, entered our world. . .. entered humanity as one of us . . .

And as Jesus gave her to the apostle John to be his mother at the foot of the cross, the one whom Jesus loved, He gave her to us all whom Jesus loves to be our mother; and as we are Jesus' brothers and sisters by adoption, we are also Mary's by adoption as we are Jesus' brother's and sisters . .. and so she has been placed in the role as mother of all believers . . .and we see this further in Revelation as the dragon makes war with "the rest" of her offsrpring . . .


So, "the woman" is Mary and she also stands here for both Israel and the Church. . . .



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I looked for the prayer which calls Mary the mother of the Holy Spirit oinline, but I can't find it . .. It is not a title that the Catholic Church uses as far as I can see . . .

prayers are devotional . . though they are not doctrinal, they are not to contradict doctrine . . . It is hard to know what that particular prayer meant by that title without more information . . . .

Can you share the name of the prayer booklet, who it was published by, etc . . ?



Peace in Him!

 

[ZiSunka]

I, too, would like to know the title of the prayer book, the title of the prayer, the author (if known), and the publication information. Standard bibliographic format will be fine.

Prayers to the Most Holy Trinity And Maddona of the Holy Spirit, Leaflet Missal Company 419 W. Minnehaha Ave. St Paul MN. with Nihil Obstat:R. Schuler and Imprimatur: John Roach DD, distributed by Sts Peter and Paul Church and School, Warren, Ohio. Sorry there is no date, but it looks like it is from the 70's or 80's. The cover has a multicolored Maddona block print with the madonna holding a white dove.

 

[marciadietrich]

Read chapter 2 of I Kings, and look at how David treats his mother. He refuses her nothing and she intercedes for his subjects, just as Mary does in heaven.

Hi Paul,

I think this reference to scripture always needs to be qualified.

First, a small error as it was Solomon and his mother Bathsheba rather than David and his mother.

Second, though Solomon says he will not refuse his mother anything and gives her honor at his right hand, when he finds out that his older half brother is looking for a particular favor that would strengthen his claim to David's throne, Solomon has the man killed instead of granting Bathsheba's request on his behalf.

You didn't say it directly here but have heard some say that Jesus doesn't refuse his mother anything in her interceding for us, like Solomon said he wouldn't refuse his mother. Well, perhaps Jesus wouldn't refuse her any honest and sincere request, but like Solomon I'm sure Jesus can and would refuse any insincere request ... whether or not Mary would take up an insincere case I don't know. I would think not if her will is in perfect line with the will of her son.

Just a long-winded add-on that hopefully won't derail the thread.

Marcia

 

[ZiSunka]

Oh and the prayer is entitled Praises to the Most Blessed Mother.

 

[ZiSunka]

Prophecy can have several levels . . . .the "woman" can be Mary, Israel, and the Church all at the same time . . .

Look at it this way . . .

Go back to Genesis 3:15 where God gives the first promise of "the woman" . . . this is the first messianic prophecy . .

Now compare it to Rev. . . . "a woman" . . .


Genesis 3:15 speaks about her "seed" (which fortells the virgin birth) . . Revelation . . her 'man child" . . . .

Mary is of Israel . . .and so represents all Israel in God's preparation for the coming of the Messiah here in Revelation . . She is the culmination of all of God's prepretory work in and through Israel . . . So she stands for Israel here . . .. She is the Jewel of Israel . . Israel's crowning acheivement in anticipation of the coming of the messiah . . . though hidden, unknown . ..and as such, remained unspoiled . . .


Mary stands for the Church . .. for she was the first to believe, she was the first disciple, she was the first to serve God made man, Jesus . . .She was the first to whom the coming of the Messiah was announced, she who said "Let it be done unto me according to they word" . . .. She ws the yeilded vessel through whom God entered matter, entered our world. . .. entered humanity as one of us . . .

And as Jesus gave her to the apostle John to be his mother at the foot of the cross, the one whom Jesus loved, He gave her to us all whom Jesus loves to be our mother; and as we are Jesus' brothers and sisters by adoption, we are also Mary's by adoption as we are Jesus' brother's and sisters . .. and so she has been placed in the role as mother of all believers . . .and we see this further in Revelation as the dragon makes war with "the rest" of her offsrpring . . .


So, "the woman" is Mary and she also stands here for both Israel and the Church. . . .



Peace in Him!

I can see how you might interpret it that way, but I don't see an overall continuity of the idea of there being a queen of heaven or a supremacy of Mary above all other humans, but that might start an illegal debate so let's just let it drop there.

Mary was the first believer? Do you have scripture to back that up?

 

[Michelina]

lambslove, the best source for prayers that reflect Catholic doctrine are liturgical prayers.

 

[Paul S]

Hi Paul,

I think this reference to scripture always needs to be qualified.

First, a small error as it was Solomon and his mother Bathsheba rather than David and his mother.

I knew David was in there somewhere. I'm not as familiar with the Old Testament as I should be; thanks for the correction.

Second, though Solomon says he will not refuse his mother anything and gives her honor at his right hand, when he finds out that his older half brother is looking for a particular favor that would strengthen his claim to David's throne, Solomon has the man killed instead of granting Bathsheba's request on his behalf.

You didn't say it directly here but have heard some say that Jesus doesn't refuse his mother anything in her interceding for us, like Solomon said he wouldn't refuse his mother. Well, perhaps Jesus wouldn't refuse her any honest and sincere request, but like Solomon I'm sure Jesus can and would refuse any insincere request ... whether or not Mary would take up an insincere case I don't know. I would think not if her will is in perfect line with the will of her son.

Good point. The footnotes of the NAB say that Solomon had him killed because by asking for one of the king's concubines as his wife, he was undermining the authority of the king. The point still remains, though, that Bathsheba interceded for Adonijah, rather than Adonijah going directly to the king. It seems like you're right - Solomon, and God, sometimes say no, especially if what we're asking isn't God's will or is harmful.

Another, and a better, example of intercession is the wedding at Cana in the Gospel of John. Even though it is not yet time for the Son's mission, he reveals himself at the intercession of His mother.

Just a long-winded add-on that hopefully won't derail the thread.

No derailing? Where's the fun in that?

 

[Miss Shelby]

.

Mary was the first believer? Do you have scripture to back that up?

That would be the Scripture from the Visitation of the Angel who told her she was to have a child.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

Oh and the prayer is entitled Praises to the Most Blessed Mother.

Now remember, it's perfectly Biblical to praise a woman of noble honor. Just read Proverbs 31.

Michelle

 

[Michelina]

I can see how you might interpret it that way, but I don't see an overall continuity of the idea of there being a queen of heaven or a supremacy of Mary above all other humans, but that might start an illegal debate so let's just let it drop there.

Good idea.

Mary was the first believer? Do you have scripture to back that up?

That question is a good illustration of the difference between Protestant and Catholic attitudes toward the Sacred Scriptures.

But if you think about it, lambslove, look at Lk 1: 26 - 38. Is she not the first believer? Or, did she disbelieve Gabriel? At that point, no one else knew (and she knew for certain) that the Messias had arrived. She believed and said "Let it be done unto me according to your word."