Help me to understand what fornication really entails.

[Lik3]

Fornication I know is about two people sleeping around outside of their marriage. How about when married couples go "outside the norm" such as swingers, polyamory, and other multiple partner situations? Would that be considered adultery even though there is no lying or secrecy? What is the line between acceptable behavior and sexual immorality? What are the other forms of sexual immorality besides bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, and fornication? Also, I recall in a magazine a preacher saying something about fornication meaning sex with a prostitute, not sex out of marriage. I guess what he refers to two people who are a couple in every way except for marriage but are living together. Also, are boyfriends and girlfriends who date and have sex with one another committing fornication? Is adultery the same as fornication or is it a form of fornication?

 

[Gadarene]

Whatever it's necessary for it to mean, usually. Ditto sodomy, blasphemy, etc.

 

[Lik3]

So if a boyfriend has sex with his girlfriend, is it a sin to do so?

I get confused because I found more than one definition of fornication. One definition has two people who are not married to each other, but the other is a straight synonym for adultery. So that had me confused.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other.

This includes adultery, but also refers to unmarried persons. Two unmarried persons (for example, a boyfriend and a girlfriend) having voluntary sexual intercourse are also fornicating.

Note: fornication has another meaning in the Bible. It also means idolatry.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[gpldisciple]

I too had questions about how the word fornication was used in the Bible and interpreted by the church. I went back to the original Greek, and the word we translated to fornication actually meant and was always associated with idolatry. So I think what God was saying is sex that comes between Him and us is wrong. I have trouble accepting the common belief that male/female sex outside marriage but within love is a sin. Going out on a Friday night, picking up on a stranger and having sex is immoral, having sex with someone you love, in a monogamous relationship, I can's see as sinful. Remove the word fornication, and then people talk of Paul mentioning sexual immorality. Like most Bible truth, God is usually not vague when it comes to expected behavior. We must determine what is sexual immorality. These are clearly listed in the Bible, all deal with incest, prostitution, homosexuality and idolatry. I can not find one verse defining man/woman sex as being immoral. After that debate I was told we are instructed to honor marriage. When I was married I was faithful, now as a divorced person I would never be involved with a married woman. People expand the meaning of honor marriage to mean no sex out of marriage. I go with God's word, not the opinion on what a man says His word means. Am I wrong here? Can anyone please show me where God says it is a sin for me to sleep with the woman I love, her alone, God always before her, in love not for pleasure alone.

 

[Paradoxum]

Any outside-marriage, non-missionary, non-reproductive sex.

(I'm helpful, I know )

Mind me asking, who do you think is harmed (without consent) by 'fornication'?

 

[gpldisciple]

Any outside-marriage, non-missionary, non-reproductive sex.

(I'm helpful, I know )

Can you back that up with scripture?

 

[Paradoxum]

Can you back that up with scripture?

God told me to write it down on a piece of paper, and then to write that it was an infallible message from him.

(I'm just being silly )

 

[hedrick]

The original meaning was prostituion. That's what your preacher meant. But among Jews it came to be any sex with someone you're not allowed to have sex with. That's probably the way Paul intended it. Based on his letters he seemed to have the usual Jewish definitions of who allowable partners are. Ideally that would mean married couples, though people typically weren't too upset with a couple who was engaged. In the OT polygamy was allowed, and also sex with slaves, who are normally called concubines. By the 1st Cent polygamy was frowned upon though I don't think it was actually prohibited. I don't know about concubines.

Most Christian groups today allow only heterosexual married coupes, though a few groups are more flexible.

 

[gpldisciple]

Seriously people, this is how religion gets started. Men deciding what God's word means.
I suggest we stick with scripture. Our modern definition of fornication is not what the original Greek meant, it referred to idolatry.
πορνεία

porneia

por-ni'-ah

From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication[G4203], as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

G4203

πορνεύω

porneuō

porn-yoo'-o

From G4204; to act the harlot, that is, (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: - commit (fornication).

Leviticus lists what God considers to be immoral sexual acts.

6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. 7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. 8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father. 9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. 10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you. 11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister. 12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative. 13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative. 14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. 15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her. 16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother. 17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. 18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. 19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. 20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. 21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. 23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
<< Leviticus 18:5Leviticus 18:6-23

Does anyone see man/woman monogamous sex listed? Nope. So again I will say, one man and one woman in love, having sex, may not be something God considers sin.

I ask again for someone to provide scripture, not something your pastor said that indicates otherwise. Believe me this was a battle for me. I am 58 divorced (unequally yoked, she left) and have a Christian GF whom I love. Because of a horrible marriage (he was insane and killed himself) she is fearful to ever marry again. We wish to stay obedient, but neither of us has found scripture that says we should not become intimate.

Thank you

 

[tomwhite84]

Fornication I know is about two people sleeping around outside of their marriage. How about when married couples go "outside the norm" such as swingers, polyamory, and other multiple partner situations? Would that be considered adultery even though there is no lying or secrecy? What is the line between acceptable behavior and sexual immorality? What are the other forms of sexual immorality besides bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, and fornication? Also, I recall in a magazine a preacher saying something about fornication meaning sex with a prostitute, not sex out of marriage. I guess what he refers to two people who are a couple in every way except for marriage but are living together. Also, are boyfriends and girlfriends who date and have sex with one another committing fornication? Is adultery the same as fornication or is it a form of fornication?

First thing first: what is the difference between right and wrong? Sin.

The Bible teaches that sin is a violation of God's law. Jesus taught that God's law hangs on love for God and neighbour as oneself, and this perfectly. So failing to love God and neighbour as oneself is basically what sin is. That's the difference between right and wrong.

So, to break something like "Thou shalt not murder" would be sin because it is unloving, according to Jesus. But he also taught that even things like cursing your brother - "You fool!" - render one liable to damnation in hell, which is the penalty for violating God's law. This is also why not all killing is murder; it depends on the spirit behind it. For example, if a cop takes the life of a gunman on a rampage because he has no other choice, we don't say that's a sin.

Likewise, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Jesus taught that while this is true, even a lustful glance at a woman is in essence adultery, and by extension unloving. Casual sex, even if only in the mind, is basically unloving. It is a case of treating a person as a sex object rather than holistically.

This would also imply that sex within marriage can also be a sin. If you're putting your own libido or fetish before the interests of your partner who you are supposed to love and cherish, then you are not being loving either.

 

[gpldisciple]

Lot's of interesting opinions but still no scripture that backs up the belief lving man/woman sex is fornication or immoral.

 

[tomwhite84]

Lot's of interesting opinions but still no scripture that backs up the belief lving man/woman sex is fornication or immoral.

Loving man/woman sex does not define marriage. If it did, then unloving sex inside marriage would be an oxymoron; it would mean there is no marriage, and there is no Biblical grounds to believe that.

In John 4, Jesus said to the woman at the well that the man she was with was not her husband. Therefore, she would be under condemnation of God's law for fornication.

 

[gpldisciple]

Nowhere is John 4 is the word fornication mentioned, nor does Jesus condemn her.
So your post is a opinion.
I am still hoping someone can provide SCRIPTURE that show man/woman loving relations to be a sin.

 

[appleofhiseye]

I was reading this article: When is sex before marriage acceptable? Fornication (premarital sex) re-examined. Bible based help for modern Christian couples.,
It seemed to be a good Christian perspective on pre-marital sex.

 

[gpldisciple]

Great post, and an in treating read. However the author states opinions and then fails to back them up with scripture. As for sexual immorality, those acts are defined in Leviticus and do not include man/woman sex unless it involves a prostitute or blood relative.

 

[tomwhite84]

Nowhere is John 4 is the word fornication mentioned, nor does Jesus condemn her. So your post is a opinion.
I am still hoping someone can provide SCRIPTURE that show man/woman loving relations to be a sin.

What is this "loving relations" euphemism for sex that you are using? You are clouding the issue:

1 Corinthians 7:2

But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

​

There's the Biblical alternative to sexual immorality: marriage. Nothing else is prescribed. The implications are obvious.

Jesus did not condemn the other woman caught in adultery either, because he was going to be condemned in her place. This is basic Christian theology.

 

[gpldisciple]

Yes, but how does the Bible define "sexual immorality"? It is listed above in Leviticus, and within that verse a made/female monogamous relationship is not listed as immoral.