Help Me Connect the Dots

[Iamblichus]

That's some pretty strong language. Just be aware of that war I told you about, and check out these verses that Jesus told me to read when I prayed to Him about you: ....
I think God is giving you a strong message, you should consider yourself blessed that He hasn't outright hardened your heart. Instead He seems to be giving you an ultimatum. That's how I would read it, but you might have a different opinion. I think Judges 13 should show you why drich mentioned pride might be a problem for you. You have to investigate whether you really want to know God or not, and then investigate what it is worth to you. My advice: give it all your strength to submit to Him and you will be eternally grateful. I say this with love, I hope you remain on the right path

I... thanks

Not really sure what else I can say at this point. Difficulties in moving oneself to seek for something outside of just the mind, as I mentioned.

However maybe investigation of what I want, and what it is worth to me is the way to begin moving. I don't know.

Pride is a hard thing to surrender...just as hard as moving oneself. Who knows maybe I'll have some... help I guess... if my heart is in the right place.

 

[oi_antz]

I... thanks

Not really sure what else I can say at this point. Difficulties in moving oneself to seek for something outside of just the mind, as I mentioned.

However maybe investigation of what I want, and what it is worth to me is the way to begin moving. I don't know.

Pride is a hard thing to surrender...just as hard as moving oneself. Who knows maybe I'll have some... help I guess... if my heart is in the right place.

You are almost right, the mind is the master of your consciousness, your body cannot disobey the mind. But you have intuition too, your consciousness does not always need to alert the mind.

For instance when driving you may be aware of cars and people around you, but it doesn't go through your mind. So don't give the mind so much credit, it is only a partial function of the brain, the body's CPU. There is actually a lot more to you than a CPU, you already understand this because you acknowledged the role of your heart.

But having said that, nothing is too hard for God. If God wants you in His army then you are going to get the help you need. Make sure you get quality information, go right to the source: read the bible and believe it. Start with John and Acts.

John is one persons testimony of Jesus' life, and Acts is the record of what happened to form the church after Jesus had been crucified. With that knowledge you will know whether Jesus is the one who deserves the throne in your life and whether you would want to spend eternity under His rule.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

As for pursing God in a personal way...I can understand why thats important. That's pretty much what I think all of you are talking about. However I don't know how to move myself, beyond my mind. Which was the point of persuading the mind, so that the heart may follow afterwards.

I asked a friend of mine about Pascals Wager some time back, and here was his insight - I think it pertains to what you said:

'Pascal emphasized that passions, will, and above all the heart are more important factors influencing and/or hindering belief in God than syllogistic, evidential, and other forms of reasoning in and of themselves. According to the biblical witnesses God can be "hidden" from the wise but known to a child -the diametric opposite of an abstract philosophical conclusion which the wise may know but the child may not. The manner in which the Kingdom may be approached as laid down in the Gospel may occur congruent to reason, but to correlate salvation to knowledge is Gnostic (salvation by knowledge). Belief as a wager is less credible than a step or steps toward belief; one cannot simply "will oneself to believe" upon Christ if one doesn't, but one might consider repentance with prayer (cf. also the Unknown God of Acts 17), hearing the Gospel, and etc. as suggested by Pascal as a "wager" to see if God might meet the seeker along the way according to the biblical promise ( cf. also Jn 3:19-21 which reminds us true repentance is itself "wrought in God"). There are diverse claims which the unbeliever might consider wagering, as has often been observed, so one would have to regard Christ as having some degree of warrant as a "try" -any Kierkegaardian criterionless "leap" begs the question "which leap?" If syllogistic reasoning to God in the manner of the Greeks is not mentioned or implied in the biblical witness, neither is any wager per se, albeit the "taste and see" of Ps 34:8 might sound similar. Pascal's wager will appeal to some but not all seekers; I'm fairly sure Pascal himself would not have supposed otherwise.'

Food for thought, nothing more. I really enjoy Pascal - his style is simply brilliant (he's regarded as the high point in classical French literature). He shies away from more abstract theorizing and really gets down on a normal persons level with his arguments and ideas.

 

[drich0150]

Alright. So pride is the main problem here. I guess as I explained in my reply to Walter. The prime reason for using philosophy is that the mind is the one part of me that I seem to be able to move. So in trying to move my heart and soul, I'm trying to move my mind first so they will start moving.

then choose to move your mind in the direction of the promises of God. If you were hungry and Homeless and a fellow beggar told you if you go here and speak to this man He will not only give you food He will give you a home to live in, would you at least not want to see or hear the man out?

I think I'm actually going to say the definition of faith is how Walter defined it. Trust by experience. I think that is a definition of merit.

Hebrews 11 defines faith for the believer.Heb 11 NASB - The Triumphs of Faith - Now faith is - Bible Gateway
trust (what you defined) comes later. According to Christ all it takes is the faith equivalent of a mustard seed to find God.

Take what faith you have and ask seek and knock.

 

[bling]

Yes, as yourself and others have said. I really need to sit down and read some scripture. I just finished my last exam today. So I'm actually going to have some time now, I'm going to take advantage of that and try and read through some scripture.

I have however heard this description of love requiring free will before, however I hadn't heard it in the context of the creation. Its a compelling case for the purpose of man.. thank you.

Anyway, I don't think I really have any more questions. I clearly just need to read, and look at the world for evidence of love.

That is unless there is something you think I'm missing, in my understanding.

Look for evidence of Godly type Love is rarely found in Churches and country Clubs, so you might have to look where the needy are.

I hope God blessed you with good memory for your tests.

 

[Iamblichus]

You are almost right, the mind is the master of your consciousness, your body cannot disobey the mind. But you have intuition too, your consciousness does not always need to alert the mind.

For instance when driving you may be aware of cars and people around you, but it doesn't go through your mind. So don't give the mind so much credit, it is only a partial function of the brain, the body's CPU. There is actually a lot more to you than a CPU, you already understand this because you acknowledged the role of your heart.

But having said that, nothing is too hard for God. If God wants you in His army then you are going to get the help you need. Make sure you get quality information, go right to the source: read the bible and believe it. Start with John and Acts.

John is one persons testimony of Jesus' life, and Acts is the record of what happened to form the church after Jesus had been crucified. With that knowledge you will know whether Jesus is the one who deserves the throne in your life and whether you would want to spend eternity under His rule.

Hmm, the role of intuition interesting. I can definitely understand that.

Well I read John, Acts, Sections of Hebrews, Romans, Genesis and Exodus, thus far this break. With the understanding that I was going to try and not question anything I read, but accept it as true. I don't really know if I'm making progress but I certainly don't have anything bad to say. Jesus seems worth of respect, for his sacrifice, his love and the simplicity he desires in man's life.

That said I definitely still think pride is ironically, keeping me down.

Anyway just thought I'd give you an update.

 

[Iamblichus]

I asked a friend of mine about Pascals Wager some time back, and here was his insight - I think it pertains to what you said:

'Pascal emphasized that passions, will, and above all the heart are more important factors influencing and/or hindering belief in God than syllogistic, evidential, and other forms of reasoning in and of themselves. According to the biblical witnesses God can be "hidden" from the wise but known to a child -the diametric opposite of an abstract philosophical conclusion which the wise may know but the child may not. The manner in which the Kingdom may be approached as laid down in the Gospel may occur congruent to reason, but to correlate salvation to knowledge is Gnostic (salvation by knowledge). Belief as a wager is less credible than a step or steps toward belief; one cannot simply "will oneself to believe" upon Christ if one doesn't, but one might consider repentance with prayer (cf. also the Unknown God of Acts 17), hearing the Gospel, and etc. as suggested by Pascal as a "wager" to see if God might meet the seeker along the way according to the biblical promise ( cf. also Jn 3:19-21 which reminds us true repentance is itself "wrought in God"). There are diverse claims which the unbeliever might consider wagering, as has often been observed, so one would have to regard Christ as having some degree of warrant as a "try" -any Kierkegaardian criterionless "leap" begs the question "which leap?" If syllogistic reasoning to God in the manner of the Greeks is not mentioned or implied in the biblical witness, neither is any wager per se, albeit the "taste and see" of Ps 34:8 might sound similar. Pascal's wager will appeal to some but not all seekers; I'm fairly sure Pascal himself would not have supposed otherwise.'

Food for thought, nothing more. I really enjoy Pascal - his style is simply brilliant (he's regarded as the high point in classical French literature). He shies away from more abstract theorizing and really gets down on a normal persons level with his arguments and ideas.

What you've written is quite dense so I'm not sure I got everything I should have out of it.

Your discussing Pascal, who sounds interesting. I may take the time to read him, and specifically the idea of a wager. The basic idea does appeal to me, basically testing to see if God really will meet you on the road if you go searching for him.

But you lose me on some of the specifics, particularly when you start discussing which leap. Where you just early saying the sort of leap one should take is to listen to the gospel, read the bible and pray. Or am I confused.

 

[Iamblichus]

then choose to move your mind in the direction of the promises of God. If you were hungry and Homeless and a fellow beggar told you if you go here and speak to this man He will not only give you food He will give you a home to live in, would you at least not want to see or hear the man out?


Hebrews 11 defines faith for the believer.Heb 11 NASB - The Triumphs of Faith - Now faith is - Bible Gateway
trust (what you defined) comes later. According to Christ all it takes is the faith equivalent of a mustard seed to find God.

Take what faith you have and ask seek and knock.

The take what faith you have and start searching seems to be a common theme amongst all of what you and others are saying. I've been making an attempt and will continue to try. So yes, I suppose I would go and see and hear the man out. Even if I do like to rely on myself for most things.

Thanks for the definition of faith. I think understand what you're referring to now.

@bling
He certainly did. Got my final marks back for two courses A+, and B+ . I will say this, one reason for my self dependency on everything is I've been given so many gifts, as far as natural aptitude. Perhaps I need to start acknowledging them as such.

(Unrelated query, someone told me God speak to us through our conscience is that a commonly held view? )

One final thing I've been meaning to try and pray, to ask for help in setting aside my pride in this search. I keep putting it off, day after day I think about doing so, but it just doesn't get done. Almost like my pride is resisting being given up. >.< Hopefully I'll sit down and ask soon.

Anyway thank you all, and sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I just wanted to try and get a start first before I said anything else.

Wish you all the best, and a very merry Christmas!

 

[Walter Kovacs]

But you lose me on some of the specifics, particularly when you start discussing which leap. Where you just early saying the sort of leap one should take is to listen to the gospel, read the bible and pray. Or am I confused.

Sorry to be dense - it was a copied/pasted quote But I'm not sure I understand you're question (been a LOOOONG day).

 

[Iamblichus]

@Walter
No worries, it was less dense then the reading for most of my classes. I just didn't feel like I really got everything out of it.
Yeah my question was kind of confused, I barely understand what I meant.
Part of the quote talks about not knowing which leap you aught to take (which wager you should make), and another part talks about how the wager is just giving in to the message of God and seeing if he meets you. How do these two parts interact? Is one the resolution to the other, or are they both true and I'm just not understanding how?

Thanks, and I might not get to replying again for a couple days, while I spend the holidays being festive with my family. So I wish you all a very merry Christmas, without too much stress.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Part of the quote talks about not knowing which leap you aught to take (which wager you should make), and another part talks about how the wager is just giving in to the message of God and seeing if he meets you. How do these two parts interact? Is one the resolution to the other, or are they both true and I'm just not understanding how?

Right, I gotcha - basically, there's 2 points being made: 1, that you can't just make yourself believe via a jump in the dark or a gamble. That's not how beliefs work. I can't just will myself to believe whatever I want, I just can't. So essentially belief as a wager just won't work - on top of other reasons, how would you know which leap to take? That's the first point: belief as a wager doesn't work.

The second point builds off the first: a wager might be a sensible first step towards belief, rather than *the* belief. If God hides from all but those who seek with the whole heart, mind and soul but has promised to meet those who do seek him, the sensible thing to do would be to indeed seek with the whole heart, mind and soul - and there is the 'wager,' if you want to call it that. I hope that makes sense - I just got home from my second Christmas Eve service, and I think the incense went to my head

There's more that can be said on this topic - and I hope we continue our conversation.

Thanks, and I might not get to replying again for a couple days, while I spend the holidays being festive with my family. So I wish you all a very merry Christmas, without too much stress.

A merry Christmas to you as well - enjoy the time with your family

 

[oi_antz]

Hmm, the role of intuition interesting. I can definitely understand that.

Well I read John, Acts, Sections of Hebrews, Romans, Genesis and Exodus, thus far this break. With the understanding that I was going to try and not question anything I read, but accept it as true. I don't really know if I'm making progress but I certainly don't have anything bad to say. Jesus seems worth of respect, for his sacrifice, his love and the simplicity he desires in man's life.

That said I definitely still think pride is ironically, keeping me down.

Anyway just thought I'd give you an update.

Hi Iamblichus, happy holidays! I have just returned from visiting family and I had a break from computers. It is good to see that you've read a lot of the bible. I suspect you may be suffering by a misled context of the bible. It isn't a story book that is devised to bring us to God. It is is a collection of writings that originated from different people for different reasons. Much of the old testament is written for history, some for praise, some for instruction, some as prophecy. The new testament as you know contains some historical records of Jesus and the church, and some letters from various early Christians to other churches. So given these contexts, you really do have to be mad to think someone wrote them with intent to deceive someone to believing in God. The only practical way to read them is to accept that the authors were being as honest as possible and recording the facts to the best of their ability.

You seem to have only scratched the surface of the purpose of Jesus' crucifixion, it is something that might sink in the more you think of it, so keep thinking about what you have read in the bible, and read more of the new testament too. If you can get all that information into your head then you will be equipped to put the pieces together. The bible is a very special book, it is sealed by the Holy Spirit, so the wisdom is available only to those who are standing right with God. Confront your pride and ask yourself whether it is worthwhile passing up the opportunity to be friends with your maker.

Anyhow, it is fantastic news to have upon my return that you haven't balked at the first sight of Jesus. Some people are bigger fans of sin than righteousness, that gives us great insight to the quality of your heart. Give it time and fair thought and the seeds that are planted in your heart will grow. There's only two paths to take, you appear to be quite happy to praise Jesus, so that is a good sign that you are on the right path.

Thanks for letting me know of your progress

 

[razeontherock]

Hmm, the role of intuition interesting. I can definitely understand that.

Well I read John, Acts, Sections of Hebrews, Romans, Genesis and Exodus, thus far this break. With the understanding that I was going to try and not question anything I read, but accept it as true.

You've said some good things in this thread! I do find that the attitude we approach the Bible with is ... really key. Here are some thoughts on that I've gathered, that've made all the difference in the world, to me:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him. Pray with a quiet, meditative spirit, for exactly that. Ask Him to show Himself strong to you, in ways you haven't known yet. It's ok to stir up your hunger, but try not to let that stir up your emotions.

2. Do this every morning, and every evening. We can talk about Scriptural reasons in depth later, but it is God's way.

3. As you read, anything that looks good PRAY FOR IT. Specific examples I've found powerful:

a. Is 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. (Jesus got this, prophetically. Talk about humility!)

b. &#8220;That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:&#8221; Eph 1:17

c. Realize EVERY instance of "the wicked man" in Proverbs is you (me / us).
Yeah, ouch.

4. If there's time for more involved praying after this, fine; but more likely there will be other things you need to go do. Don't think they take you away from God because they DON'T! Just don't leave home w/o Him. It's in the doing that prayer seems to be most helpful. "Pray w/o ceasing," keep a prayerful attitude; there is room in His kingdom for our own unique style. The calling is to abundant LIFE.

Jesus seems worth of respect, for his sacrifice, his love and the simplicity he desires in man's life.

That said I definitely still think pride is ironically, keeping me down.

The Bible is a "mirror," that enables us to see ourselves (more) as G-d sees us. With it's input, we come to realize that finding pride in us, is not ironic at all. And while it is deadly, this is a good area in which to discover the awesome power of Christ's forgiveness.

In that environment, you may come to respect Him for who He is, and from there gain some hand-on knowledge of what He actually did via the Cross ...

 

[Jamesja]

Are you willing to experiment? Pray and ask God to show you how much he loves you and he will.

 

[Iamblichus]

Right, I gotcha - basically, there's 2 points being made: 1, that you can't just make yourself believe via a jump in the dark or a gamble. That's not how beliefs work. I can't just will myself to believe whatever I want, I just can't. So essentially belief as a wager just won't work - on top of other reasons, how would you know which leap to take? That's the first point: belief as a wager doesn't work.

The second point builds off the first: a wager might be a sensible first step towards belief, rather than *the* belief. If God hides from all but those who seek with the whole heart, mind and soul but has promised to meet those who do seek him, the sensible thing to do would be to indeed seek with the whole heart, mind and soul - and there is the 'wager,' if you want to call it that. I hope that makes sense - I just got home from my second Christmas Eve service, and I think the incense went to my head

There's more that can be said on this topic - and I hope we continue our conversation.



A merry Christmas to you as well - enjoy the time with your family

Ah I think I understand much better now thank you for clarifying.

So belief isn't a wager, but you can move towards belief by a wager, that's definitely an idea which appeals to myself. The concept of trying something as a wager. Though I wonder would that contradict what God told us about not testing him? I'm not, as you a know a Christian so perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

I'd be happy to, you're insight is alway welcome and often illuminating.

And thank you I've had a lovely Christmas Break thus far. I hope you can say the same.

 

[Iamblichus]

Hi Iamblichus, happy holidays! I have just returned from visiting family and I had a break from computers. It is good to see that you've read a lot of the bible. I suspect you may be suffering by a misled context of the bible. It isn't a story book that is devised to bring us to God. It is is a collection of writings that originated from different people for different reasons. Much of the old testament is written for history, some for praise, some for instruction, some as prophecy. The new testament as you know contains some historical records of Jesus and the church, and some letters from various early Christians to other churches. So given these contexts, you really do have to be mad to think someone wrote them with intent to deceive someone to believing in God. The only practical way to read them is to accept that the authors were being as honest as possible and recording the facts to the best of their ability.

You seem to have only scratched the surface of the purpose of Jesus' crucifixion, it is something that might sink in the more you think of it, so keep thinking about what you have read in the bible, and read more of the new testament too. If you can get all that information into your head then you will be equipped to put the pieces together. The bible is a very special book, it is sealed by the Holy Spirit, so the wisdom is available only to those who are standing right with God. Confront your pride and ask yourself whether it is worthwhile passing up the opportunity to be friends with your maker.

Anyhow, it is fantastic news to have upon my return that you haven't balked at the first sight of Jesus. Some people are bigger fans of sin than righteousness, that gives us great insight to the quality of your heart. Give it time and fair thought and the seeds that are planted in your heart will grow. There's only two paths to take, you appear to be quite happy to praise Jesus, so that is a good sign that you are on the right path.

Thanks for letting me know of your progress

I think I'm a little bit confused by your first paragraph. So the bible isn't going to lead a person towards God? Is that what you're saying. Or are you just explaining to me that the intention isn't to a lead a person to God. It wasn't designed that way it just does?

Pride is a hard thing to confront. I have been trying to make an effort to do so, and I never really seem to be able to directly confront it. Its kind of slippery like that. I'll try and keep it in mind, I've been told of the importance of Christ's sacrifice but as you say I don't really think I've absorbed its importance or meaning.

Well I'm glad to seem to be along the right track. I've always sort of felt drawn towards the more righteous behaviour and repulsed by a lot of the more wicked stuff. I just seem to have a strong conscience. Well the new testament is fairly long so I guess I should get started if I want to read some more of it this break.

I hope you had a good Christmas, and have a great New Years.

 

[oi_antz]

I think I'm a little bit confused by your first paragraph. So the bible isn't going to lead a person towards God? Is that what you're saying. Or are you just explaining to me that the intention isn't to a lead a person to God. It wasn't designed that way it just does?

Pride is a hard thing to confront. I have been trying to make an effort to do so, and I never really seem to be able to directly confront it. Its kind of slippery like that. I'll try and keep it in mind, I've been told of the importance of Christ's sacrifice but as you say I don't really think I've absorbed its importance or meaning.

Well I'm glad to seem to be along the right track. I've always sort of felt drawn towards the more righteous behaviour and repulsed by a lot of the more wicked stuff. I just seem to have a strong conscience. Well the new testament is fairly long so I guess I should get started if I want to read some more of it this break.

I hope you had a good Christmas, and have a great New Years.

Yeah well read what I wrote and its just a lot of presumption. I'm sure you will get the right pieces of the puzzle, just put your faith in God as you read Well have a great time for the New Year!

 

[Iamblichus]

You've said some good things in this thread! I do find that the attitude we approach the Bible with is ... really key. Here are some thoughts on that I've gathered, that've made all the difference in the world, to me:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him. Pray with a quiet, meditative spirit, for exactly that. Ask Him to show Himself strong to you, in ways you haven't known yet. It's ok to stir up your hunger, but try not to let that stir up your emotions.

2. Do this every morning, and every evening. We can talk about Scriptural reasons in depth later, but it is God's way.

3. As you read, anything that looks good PRAY FOR IT. Specific examples I've found powerful:

a. Is 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. (Jesus got this, prophetically. Talk about humility!)

b. “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:” Eph 1:17

c. Realize EVERY instance of "the wicked man" in Proverbs is you (me / us).
Yeah, ouch.

4. If there's time for more involved praying after this, fine; but more likely there will be other things you need to go do. Don't think they take you away from God because they DON'T! Just don't leave home w/o Him. It's in the doing that prayer seems to be most helpful. "Pray w/o ceasing," keep a prayerful attitude; there is room in His kingdom for our own unique style. The calling is to abundant LIFE.



The Bible is a "mirror," that enables us to see ourselves (more) as G-d sees us. With it's input, we come to realize that finding pride in us, is not ironic at all. And while it is deadly, this is a good area in which to discover the awesome power of Christ's forgiveness.

In that environment, you may come to respect Him for who He is, and from there gain some hand-on knowledge of what He actually did via the Cross ...

Thanks for the advice, I'll try and keep what you've said in mind when I read scripture, and throughout life. As much as I can anyway. After all I'm only human.

As I said earlier one of the prime barriers thus far, is I want to sit down and try praying but I keep putting it off. I'm really not sure why.

I suppose the power of Christ's forgiveness and the knowledge of what he did on the cross are pretty much one and the same. So in reading we are both able to see ourselves more accurately, and then understand that we are forgiven. It's all kind of heavy, and hard to take in all at once.


@Jamesja If I weren't open to understanding and experimentation I don't think I'd be here. But yes that is something I think would be helpful but I've been unable to do thus far.

 

[1Prophetess]

Well, Iamblichus, it has been an incredible pleasure to get to know your mind. Without a shadow of a doubt, I love to understand a person's thinking. Let me give you a little background about me so that you get to know me a bit too.

First, I am a teacher by profession, so understanding my students' minds is of paramount importance to me so that I am able to teach them. (Some go willingly at first, and others I have to convince that they should make the effort with me because they will be benefitted.)

After that, I appreciate a good, thinking, reasoning mind. I came to Jesus as a child, and in a way, that is a disadvantage because I've always thought there was a God as long as I could remember. But after a time, I began to think maybe I was wrong. So I started to seek God through other means--my mind, my logic, and my understanding of science.

I happen to be a lover of learning (like you), and so I seek knowledge to make it make sense of my world. I am also an amateur scientist--I study genetics (which is one of my passions). I am also an ardent student of the Bible. What I find I do not understand, I find a way to understand. For me, the Bible all makes total sense. In some ways, I do use faith for my understanding of it, but much of what I understand makes total sense to me. It has to for me to feel good about believing. I don't like looking stupid. I would not accept something that didn't make sense to me.

I think it is only fair to give you a little background about me before I jump in and start answering your questions being that I am coming in late. I, however, was so fascinated by your intellectual curiosity that I read all the posts up until now, so I think I'm up to speed (as the saying goes).

Let's see if I can help you understand a few things that make sense to me.

Granted, I can accept that.
As a biology student I can say my knowledge of science helped me conclude there has to be something more. But that's just me.

Seems to be, one of those arguments that comes up time and time again. Does suggest a sort of hands off approach. (Which doesn't necessarily I realize denote a lack of care.)

I can see where this line of thinking leads...I agree, the creator must have a reason for the creation of things. However I'm not sure that speaks to him being the ultimate lover. It could equally be so he can revel in the glory he has wrought.

My prime problem with this line of thought is that is leads to the supremacy of man. Which I'm not sure of, I think that our reason indicates a closeness to the divine, though not necessarily a superiority to anything else, after all everything was created with a purpose, which makes everything equally important in the Creators eyes.

So either our creator created it out of Selfless love, For a purpose, or for his own Glory.

As a biology student (almost enough hours to teach science (which is indeed minimal IMHO)), I came to the understanding that there was a God. It made total sense to me once I really started looking at His creation. I asked over and over, "How could this be without a God?" And so I concluded there had to be a being that was greater than this all.

I wanted to point this out which you've at least alluded to--we are his children. Let's say that you were alone in the state of Texas and you lived down in the southern most part. I give you this example because it makes God's position a little more finite (which allows us to put it into perspective).

Let's also say that you had a way to find/create what you called your "children." So you found/created one (let's say a fish, a squirrel, a tortoise or whatever makes it easy for you) so that you could socialize with him. You realized that he wasn't as smart as you are, but you at least had companionship. (You can understand this by way of creating a scientific experiment, but this would better be described as seeking a companion.)

You then found that he seemed to long for a companion. So, because you enjoyed his being around, you decided to create/bring in a female for him. He was overjoyed, and you and he and the female enjoyed your relationship. In this, you were the provider, and you gave them everything they wanted--food, water, a nice place to live, comforts, and you began to love them because of the companionship they offered.

One day, something happened that these being rejected your gifts. They decided to get out of the place you put them, where you provided everything, and they struck out on their own. You would feel rejected and sad that they were gone. You would be unhappy that you were again alone. (Now if you were an ancient Greek or Egyptian god, the expectation is that you would go after them and punish them.) But let's say that you were kind, and loving, and really loved these creatures enough that you wanted them to be happy above all else. And you would want to find a way that they could come back if they ever wanted to.

So you decided to create a plan that would make it possible for them to come back. You knew that you had the power to do anything. You also knew that they only had freedom of choice and could offer nothing else to even their own existence. So you decided to make a plan that was so simple that even the simplest of their offspring could come back to know you. You knew they could not, in many cases, even know which direction to go to get to you, and you were going to have to do everything. You didn't mind because you had the power. You said, "I will make a plan that I will do everything if they will only say the words I ask and believe me."

So then you had to create a plan that would work. Now they insulted you by leaving. After all, you gave them everything they could ever want. So you had to make it clear to them that they (or their parents) did wrong. You had to make it clear to them. You also knew that they were so weak that just by your breath you could destroy them. You knew that they were so mentally deficient that they could not even understand you. And you also knew that they didn't understand how to be fair, or good, or much of anything else. So your plan had to encompass something that was easy, simple and yet showed that they realized they had left. Now you wanted them to come back to you and live where you lived so you could enjoy their company again. You knew that some would choose to go where you were, and some would choose not to. But you couldn't force love upon them because then it wouldn't be real and you did not want to live in fantasy and couldn't live in lies. So you had to allow them to choose to love you or not. And once they chose, you would show them what love really was.

So your plan was to send your Son who also lived with you to them so that they could meet him and get to know him. He was going to be the answer to how to get back to you. He would give them the "directions" as to what had to be done to get back--the map. So you sent him, but their descendants decided he was a fake, and they killed him. You knew they would reject him, not let him stay where they were, and that they would kill his human body (which was not worth much anyway since it was so weak and not powerful), so you had to come up with a plan that would work when they killed him. So you said, "If anyone believes that he is my son (that's all they have to do), then they can come back and know me." That's pretty simple. All they had to do was believe. So then He gave His ideas and words to some men, and they wrote it down. There is no place that I know of in the world that doesn't have the Bible. So everyone has a chance to get it, to seek and to find. Some just don't bother.


Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+43:9-11&version=NIV1984
Acts 5:14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Acts+5:13-15&version=NIV1984
Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Acts+16:30-32&version=NIV1984
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Romans+10:8-10&version=NIV1984
Actually this last verse is the one where you open the door to a relationship with God.

1) Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord
2) Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead
and you are saved.


http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Genesis+15:5-7&version=NIV1984
I give you this story because you can somewhat now see how God feels. He provided a perfect place for our ancestors. They said they didn't want it. Then he provided a perfect plan that was so simple that any one of them could use it to come back, but many said, "No thanks." Then He had some guys write it down in a letter to all the world so anyone could get it. And they didn't even bother to get it.

And if you were a god, you'd stand there shaking your head saying, "What the....?" Now those that didn't come back, didn't even bother to pick up your letter, would you make their life perfect? Would you answer them when they called to you (being that they refused to use the plan that you created) even if they were in need? No, because you gave them the plan, and you said you would bring them back to you only after they followed the ONE thing you asked of them--follow the Plan.

So that is why there is suffering in the world. Now you might say that's not fair because not everyone knows Him. His letter is available everywhere.

He said that anyone who seeks Him, will find Him (because He is going to reveal Himself.) So when you seek Him, He shows you He is there just like He has done for you. Now some would seek Him and then give up and not bother. So He said that He would not fight with you forever--you had a chance to decide, and once that was done, you were done. He wasn't going to try to get your attention over and over and over forever.

 

[1Prophetess]

As a biology student I can say my knowledge of science helped me conclude there has to be something more. But that's just me...

I can see where this line of thinking leads...I agree, the creator must have a reason for the creation of things. However I'm not sure that speaks to him being the ultimate lover. It could equally be so he can revel in the glory he has wrought.

My prime problem with this line of thought is that is leads to the supremacy of man. Which I'm not sure of, I think that our reason indicates a closeness to the divine, though not necessarily a superiority to anything else, after all everything was created with a purpose, which makes everything equally important in the Creators eyes.

So either our creator created it out of Selfless love, For a purpose, or for his own Glory.

Yes, as a biology student, I had to conclude there was a greater being. It could not work so well if there was not a master plan. The form of our genetic structure alone is proof enough for me. And then there's the way life is created in the womb. How could that be without a greater being in control of the creation?

Here's the point. If God is truly perfect love, would He force us? No. If He is perfect love and He wrote down the instructions for life, how to get to know Him, how to live in a world with others of our kind, how to be happy, how to get what we want, then people reject His writing, how would anyone feel? Rejected.

If I said you didn't exist, if I didn't answer you when you called, if I told others you were just some fake idea in people's heads, if I called you a figment of my imagination, and said you were actually a woman named Sherry, you would stop writing to me eventually. You'd think I was crazy, and you would finally just say, do what you want. I can't make you be my friend.

God is the same. He refuses to force us. If He forced us, it would not be love. It would be submission. He already knows He is capable of force--He is omnipotent. He wants to love and be loved back.

I feel like there is a disconnect between what I'm saying and what I've come to accept. Logically I know there must be a creator, yet at the same time, a part of me rebels against the idea.

...I have to reason to assume that we are created in his image.

...But what evidence is there for a loving God? If we don't look at scripture but just at the world?

I'm afraid not...care to enlighten me?

Once you are willing to accept some things on face value (i.e. the experiment needs to be completed because we need to see the actual pitre dish results to see if the theory works), then you begin to be a bit confused. This is normal. (Who in their right mind would ever consider that a mold would save lives or that penicillin--a miracle--would come from a mold or that it could be put into a syringe? Why not just use leeches to get rid of illness?)

What evidence? Every single day, you get up to normalcy. If you concluded that the world is chaos (which would be my conclusion if I didn't believe in God), then it would make sense that when you got up one day, the sunset was happening. Maybe the sunset was green and not a lightening of the sky as the sun rose but a darkness that you could touch like fog. In fact, maybe the sun wouldn't rise at all. Maybe the earth would rise.

Do you see my point? We see his faithfulness renewed every day.

I personally think a loving God creates normalcy. A crazy, mean, unloving God would create chaos IMHO.

Does that work for you?

...While it fascinates me, I as a knowledge seeker am not to debate the ideas being offered to me.

Fascinating. I never considered this. What a great thinking mind you've developed. This comment I will not easily forget.

...Plato suggests that being (the forms) are the only thing we can truly grasp. I think this is wrong. I think the only thing we can understand is the world of becoming, which is to say the material.

This is what I did not like about Plato and gave him up almost immediately. For me, if I only was able to focus on the forms, then I would necessarily only accept the present. There could be no past and no future. I think that we can focus on all three, but I believe that ability is created once we accept God's knowledge. He opens our minds to incredible extensions that I could not see without God's guidance.

I'll be honest the reason for the philosophical approach is that, its the only approach I really find compelling. I've actually gone through the reasoning and made a compelling case for myself for the existence of a Soul, and of the Creator. If I can deduce with reason, then I start to believe in something. Perhaps thats all it takes... maybe I just need a few days for this philosophical realization of the creator to sink in so I may being to start the ball rolling towards faith.

I don't think that is the case but I'm not about to deny it as a possibility.

Which I guess you're saying that possibility is highly unlikely that, that is the case, and the reason for this is my approach. Because it recognizes only the work of the creator, and his not self-disclosure.

I can accept that...though I think it just means I'm not likely to arrive at faith.

You may not yet see, but yours is an incomplete way of thinking. It is not wrong. And it makes complete sense, and it is your comfort zone. It is a way you have been able to explain the world. It is reason to you.

But God is so far away from our so very miniscule, finite reasoning, that we cannot understand Him without taking into account most of the world's knowledge. And who can do that? Therefore, we need Him to guide us through the maze--and it is a maze. He is the only one that can bring us to reality (since we live in darkness and cannot see the light.)

Therefore, you have to follow the rules He made so that you can come to the light of perfect knowledge in Him. I know this sounds very ethereal and other worldly but it is the way, the only way.

I don't mean in this cause judging God's love but more then I have trouble accepting a creator at all, for some reason, despite knowing it should be true. ...

...So, I basically need to just have faith, and turn to him before I can hope to see anything. I'm not sure if that is something I can do... I see no reason why I should just accept him on faith or more then anyone else. Why not just accept another faith?

I know its a personal thing....I need it to be a personal philosophical thing. Its just sort of how I seem to work.

Hmm... interesting, thank you. I can sort of of understand how you mean sacrifice can purge something then. Thanks. =)

Do you need "faith" as something that you don't understand? Haven't you already seen Him in the world of science? Haven't you already seen Him today when you got up to Not Chaos? Have you not already seen Him in your ability to think and reason? If not, I would ask then, how can things be the way they are? You and I both reasoned there had to be more. I've gone the way of sanity and reason (mine was sheer luck (or blessed as Christians say) that my parents came to God when I was young). You're nearly there.

You have a lot of faith already. You woke up this morning believing that the sun was going to rise. You woke up this morning not in extreme fear that your arms and legs did not fall to the ground while you slept because you believed things were normal. You got up this morning, knowing that you had food. That's a tremendous amount of faith. It is faith in normalcy. Without God, how could those things be?

I don't mean in this cause judging God's love but more then I have trouble accepting a creator at all, for some reason, despite knowing it should be true....

Still I'd like to address this idea, because I think its quite helpful. You might be right, I might just be overlooking love as it appears in the world. I just ...don't know. Which is why I'd like some evidence.

...I guess not. I'm not trying to judge him. It's just hard to think any other way you know.

So, I basically need to just have faith, and turn to him before I can hope to see anything. I'm not sure if that is something I can do... I see no reason why I should just accept him on faith or more then anyone else. Why not just accept another faith?

I know its a personal thing....I need it to be a personal philosophical thing. Its just sort of how I seem to work.

Hmm... interesting, thank you. I can sort of of understand how you mean sacrifice can purge something then. Thanks. =)

But you know it is true. You've reasoned this out. Now you're doubting your reasoning (which, I might add, is right on target!)

Love from God is that He, being onmiscient and omnipotent, does not say, "Hey, I know what's best for you. Now I'm going to force you to love me." If He didn't love you and if He wanted you to honor and obey Him, don't you think He could force you?

But He doesn't.

How can that be?

Only through His greater love does He not!

I also see His love in His creation. We can heal ourselves. We get cut, and it heals! Who would have ever thought of that?

We get to see a beautiful sunset. Where did that come from?

Animals have worked out a system in the wild so that all species (without human interference) would survive. How would that work if not for intervention by someone who knew best?

Could this all be random?

There is so much proof in the world that He loves His creation.

The other problem as everyone seems to have been pointing out is pride, probably true. I've never really been the sort to bow to authority.

Sadly, for you, it is much harder to move toward God. I am a bit surprised that you have found a way (though to me, God's existence is the most logical thing in the world). But you have a great mind, and that makes for a much harder row to hoe. So, unfortunately, you will have to make a greater effort in your thinking to understand.

I also do not bow to authority. And that makes my life rather difficult at times.

But why should I believe someone's opinion when I can form my own out of my own mind which has at least a 98% chance of being more able? And if they force me (which they only think they can), then their way isn't so great since they have to force me.

But that too shows God's love. He doesn't force us. If He did, it wouldn't really be love. And God IS love.

Thanks for the definition of faith. I think understand what you're referring to now.

He certainly did. Got my final marks back for two courses A+, and B+ . I will say this, one reason for my self dependency on everything is I've been given so many gifts, as far as natural aptitude. Perhaps I need to start acknowledging them as such.

(Unrelated query, someone told me God speak to us through our conscience is that a commonly held view? )

My point above. You are given gifts. You have a great, scientific mind. I tell few people this because it creates conflict, but I used to belong to Mensa.

People don't realize it, but when you are exceptional (either below or above average), life is harder. They think you're gifted so you have all knowledge. Even my husband said, "Well, you're so smart, you didn't know that?" My retort is, "I don't have omniscience."

Yes, I do believe He speaks through our conscience. And since yours is developed highly, I would guess He has been speaking to you for quite a while.

One final thing I've been meaning to try and pray, to ask for help in setting aside my pride in this search. I keep putting it off, day after day I think about doing so, but it just doesn't get done. Almost like my pride is resisting being given up. >.< Hopefully I'll sit down and ask soon.

Let me ask for you.

Father God, Lord Jesus, Holy Spirit, I thank You for my knowing You. I am so glad I've come to an understanding and that I have knowledge far beyond my own ability to comprehend. I thank You that You are there in all I do and all I say. I praise You for Your almighty omniscience, your omnipotence, and your omnipresence. I love You being near us. I now ask that you will help this one who is seeking. He is seeking You. You say that if we seek You, we will find You. Please open the doors of his mind, expand it to Your level so that he can know You. I thank You for Your gift of understanding. Thank You Lord. Thank You Lord of my life. I also tie up the tongues of any being that would confuse him so that he cannot be confused, confounded or misled. I ask that Your mind is in him now so he can find you. In Jesus name, amen.