Help! I'm a heathen!

[The_White]

Just another little point here, Christianity (if I am not dreadfully mistaken) has a doctrine of Forgiveness,Acceptance and Grace. If people cannot accept you for who you are, then maybe they need to have a look at themself first. I am not saying that they cannot dissagree with you (or you with them), I dissagree with people all the time, but I still try to accept them and love them as they are. Jesus did say (and I can't think of an exact wording) "Why say to your brother, here let me remove the speck from your eye, while you have a plank in your own eye? First remove the plank from your own eye" I would suggest that anyone who is trying to force you to change needs to look at the plank first

 

[redheadmt]

Oh, wow. I think that I am really going to like you guys. If I can endure Real Life stuff like my husband's friend telling me that I go to a "black" (meaning evil) church (United Church of Christ), or that only 1 in 10,000 are saved and I'm not one of them, then I can handle a couple not so nice posts posts in a forum that has some really great people who seem to understand how I think.

I loved the ice cream post. Thanks.

 

[seebs]

Huh, only one in ten thousand? Is that an exact number? If so, where exactly did he get it? I don't seem to recall seeing an exact number in the Bible.

No offense, but I think you may need to sit your husband down with a Bible and make him read it.

 

[The_White]

I see no problem with the Uniting Church (I am assuming that the UC is the same as the UCoC) I also see no problem with:

Baptists
Anglicans
Catholics (Roman and otherwise)
Protestants
Methodists
Any other Christian church I failed to mention

 

[seebs]

The problem, as you've probably noticed by now, isn't with churches, it's with people.

That's the ultimate problem Christianity faces; it's true. People really do need a savior.

 

[Loki]

That's really unfortunate that you have to endure such insults, especially from someone who's a friend of a loved one. *hug*

What exactly is the problem with the United Church of Christ? Or their problem, I guess I should say.

 

[The_White]

The problem, as you've probably noticed by now, isn't witch churches, it's with people.

That's the ultimate problem Christianity faces; it's true. People really do need a savior.

Go seebs, I think I like you
My general opinion: People in general suck, with a few notable exeptions. Howver, no matter how sucky you are I accept you in all your suckyness

BTW seebs, I think you meant "which" church not "witch" (I agree with you either way tho)

 

[seebs]

Actually, I meant "with". But "witch" is funny too.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

How can you "conservative bible-believers" wipe away the tears that YOU have caused to be shed? Do you regularly mug people and then try to comfort their sorrow at being robbed?

WE NEED A LIBERAL FORUM WHERE THIS CAN'T HAPPEN!

 

[Bonhoffer]

I am politically liberal. I absolutely can't stand Bush. I believe that the gay marriage amendment idea is ludicrous and terribly wrong. I am pro-choice. My problem is that the Christians that I know believe that I can not be a Christian and also have liberal beliefs. Even my born again husband puts me down and says stuff like "you either follow the map (the Bible) or you don't." My husband's best friend doesn't come here anymore after he found out the I go to a United Church of Christ. I get really depressed trying to rationalize my political beliefs with my faith in God. Does anyone have any encouraging words or advice?

I totally understand. I am politically liberal on most issues, but strongly conservative theologically. I however see very few difficulties in reconciling the two. There are certain issues where it is difficult to be a Bible beleiver and a liberal (abortion and policy towards Israel) for example.
But most liberal positions on issues do no contradict the Christian Bible. In some cases the two support each other.
I.e the doctrine of free will can be used to advocate seperation of church and state. Also there are endless of anti-racist passages.

Now some people would have you beleive that you cannot be Christian and anti-Bush. However where in the Bible does it say "Thou shall vote Bush". It doesnt! It also doesnt encourage blind obediance to the government or a war for oil. The Bible does say that homosexuality is wrong, but it also tells us not to judge. (which is a very liberal thing to say) The letters of St Paul say that even church pastors cannot judge those outside of the church. However the Pastors are given the right to an extent to judge those people (including practicing homosexuals) inside the church, because in effect by going to church you are submitting yourself to the authority of the Pastor.

But seriously. look at it. The Bible does not say "Thou shall not be liberal. Thou shall vote conservative". If anything it adovocates socialism! I've looked at the Bible and I beleive you can be of any overall political persuation as long as you dont go into the extremes. You can be a socialist, a liberal, a conservative or even a feminist; as long as you are not a fascist, a communist,a politically correct zealot or a radical feminist men-basher!

Dont worry if you dont want to vote for Bush. Remember that 'Christian' means 'follower of Christ' and not 'follower of Bush'. Just because a candidate claims to be Christian or a party is popular with Christians doesnt make them Christian. The Republicans are just trying to cash in on peoples faith. I personally could never vote for a party which says "We are a Christian party or the party for Christians". The reason why is that them saying this would automatically sound suspicious and unChristian. I would also fear a theocracy coming into place which the devil will use to turn people off from Christ. There is nothing in my experience that turns people off the Christian faith more than the pushy, theocratic religious right. In fact I have severe doubts if these people have a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Bonhoffer - why is it difficult to reconcile Christianity with a belief that Israel should abide by the same rules of international behaviour as any other country? That's the usual "liberal" belief.

It's mine, anyway.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Bonhoffer - why is it difficult to reconcile Christianity with a belief that Israel should abide by the same rules of international behaviour as any other country? That's the usual "liberal" belief.

Oh it isnt!
That isnt what I meant. What I was reffering to was the debate about whether the land belongs to Israel at all.
One could be politically conservative and agree with what you just said.

Let me put it this way. Before I was a Christian I beleived that the Israelis had stolen the land and were just using God as an excuse. I still loved Jewish people, but I thought that the Israeli state was criminal and had stolen the land.

However since coming to faith I have found difficult in the "Israel stole the land" vrs "God gave the Jews the land in the Bible" issue. I have also found difficulty with all the Bible propechies about Israel.

So now I have to accept that God did give the land to the Jews and that the state of Israel is Gods will.

However I still think that the Palestinians deserve better treatment and that Israel is still in violation of international law and treating people humanely. (i.e illegal settlements)

I support both Israel and Palestine co-existing as seperate states. And of course I have always been opposed to all these suicide bombers and Arab terror groups.

 

[Abiel]

That's the usual "liberal" belief.

So is christian liberalism a pre defined set of beliefs to which we must subscribe to find acceptance?

I am perpetually confused as a Christian. I am being made to study doctrine at the moment, and find it trying. The longer I go on, the more I just want to focus on prayer and doing the work I am called to do. Tired of experiencing more persecution from christians than from world.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

So is christian liberalism a pre defined set of beliefs to which we must subscribe to find acceptance?

No. But IME, this is what most liberals tend to think.

I don't think we actually differ much over Israel, Bonhoffer. Perhaps we both make assumptions about what a "liberal" or a "conservative" would think? I've met some conservatives who believe that Israel should take the whole Biblical Israel, and be free to do as they will with Palestinian lands, but I hope not to assume that's always every conservative's position.

 

[redheadmt]

The question was asked about why the United Church of Christ is considered "black" by my husband's friend. The answer is that the UCC that I go to is an "Open and Affirming" church, meaning that they welcome people regardless of their sexual orientation. My husband's friend is obsessed with the sins of homosexuals. I'm not exaggerating when I say the he thinks about homosexuals ALL OF THE TIME. Even my husband has a difficult time understanding why he focuses so much energy on the verses in the Bible that deal with homosexuality. We have come up with a theory that he is a very angry person who needs a scapegoat to spew all of his bitterness at.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

One could be forgiven for thinking, sometimes, that the 10 commandments are in fact:

1. Thou shalt not be gay
2. Thou shalt not be gay
3. Refer to 1 & 2
4. Thou shalt vote republican
5. Thou shalt not be gay
6. Thou shalt oppose gun control
7. Thou shalt not be gay
8. Thou shalt call any thou disagreest with "liberals", and thou shalt despise them
9. Thou shalt not be gay
10. Thou shalt not be gay.

 

[The_White]

The question was asked about why the United Church of Christ is considered "black" by my husband's friend. The answer is that the UCC that I go to is an "Open and Affirming" church, meaning that they welcome people regardless of their sexual orientation.

Alrighty then, I will paraphrase that if I may:
The UCC taht I go to is evil and definately not christian because it shows the acceptance of people that Christ himself taught.
Does that sound like a fairly acurate way of reading that?

My husband's friend is obsessed with the sins of homosexuals. I'm not exaggerating when I say the he thinks about homosexuals ALL OF THE TIME. Even my husband has a difficult time understanding why he focuses so much energy on the verses in the Bible that deal with homosexuality. We have come up with a theory that he is a very angry person who needs a scapegoat to spew all of his bitterness at.

I flinch away from this as I wirte it, I saying things like this but here goes.
Might it be possible that the reason that your husband's friend is so obsessed with homosexuality is because he has homosexual urges and is ashamed of them?
Now don't get me wrong, this is simply a suggestion and I don't know any of you well enough to make a defiate decision, but it might be worth thinking about?

One could be forgiven for thinking, sometimes, that the 10 commandments are in fact:

1. Thou shalt not be gay
2. Thou shalt not be gay
3. Refer to 1 & 2
4. Thou shalt vote republican
5. Thou shalt not be gay
6. Thou shalt oppose gun control
7. Thou shalt not be gay
8. Thou shalt call any thou disagreest with "liberals", and thou shalt despise them
9. Thou shalt not be gay
10. Thou shalt not be gay.

That would be funny, if it wasn't so true

 

[redheadmt]

I goofed up trying to quote only part of your post. The stress of being a newbie! Anyway, The White said:

"I flinch away from this as I wirte it, I saying things like this but here goes.
Might it be possible that the reason that your husband's friend is so obsessed with homosexuality is because he has homosexual urges and is ashamed of them?
Now don't get me wrong, this is simply a suggestion and I don't know any of you well enough to make a defiate decision, but it might be worth thinking about?"


I had that theory for a while, but I don't think so. An alternate theory that I have is that homosexuality is a good thing for him to focus on because he may have committed many of the other sins mentioned in the Bible, but homosexuality is the one sin that he will NEVER take part in. So, he can feel superior and self-righteous on this one issue. Does this theory make any sense?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I am politically liberal. I absolutely can't stand Bush. I believe that the gay marriage amendment idea is ludicrous and terribly wrong. I am pro-choice. My problem is that the Christians that I know believe that I can not be a Christian and also have liberal beliefs. Even my born again husband puts me down and says stuff like "you either follow the map (the Bible) or you don't." My husband's best friend doesn't come here anymore after he found out the I go to a United Church of Christ. I get really depressed trying to rationalize my political beliefs with my faith in God. Does anyone have any encouraging words or advice?

Liberal is a very elastic and variable term. It is used as a term of abuse by some and some consider those they see as "liberals" are not Christians.

However, I am heartened by several thoughts. First of all "liberal" is an adjective and not really a noun. In this context it is shorthand for "liberal Christian" so "liberals" are certainly Christian.

Secondly "liberal" is a comparative term and I am heartily gladdened to be seen as more liberal than some people.

Some liberals are also evangelical while others are far away at the end of the spectrum, so the term is fairly meaningless.

Liberal is not the same as licentious, although some have trouble grasping that idea.

We have a liberal God who is generous to all his children, so liberal is not a bad thing at all, but something all Christians should be.

I find a lot of support from being around other liberal Christians on discussion boards, although there are some who are too liberal for me to identify with them much.

Karin

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

. An alternate theory that I have is that homosexuality is a good thing for him to focus on because he may have committed many of the other sins mentioned in the Bible, but homosexuality is the one sin that he will NEVER take part in. So, he can feel superior and self-righteous on this one issue. Does this theory make any sense?

Absolute sense. The one thing that holds many people back on condemning others is that they stand condemned by the same standard.

But this one is where the straight person can be totally sure they will not be caught a week later doing the same thing.

Couple this with the fact that we tend to be revulsed by sexual activity we are not personally inclined towards (whether it be sado-masochism, "water games", bondage, or same-sex relations) and you have the perfect recipe for the intense dislike you experience. Couple that with a couple of bible verses that can be used to appear to bolster your feelings, and off you go...