Help I don't really understand this

[qbit]

I am sorry I woke up the other morning and immediately I had this question it almost came from nowhere, I am now stuck and I don’t know what choice to make? The replies to the last thread I posted, most didn't really help me understand. I have tried to make this clearer so can you please tell me in the poll which points you agree with and which ones you don’t and where I am wrong? Thanks

Point 1 God is a fair God all people are equaly special to him none are more valuble. There are millions of people who have never had the chance to hear about God beacause they were not lucky like me to be born in the right counrty at the right time in the histry of the world. Because God is fair these people who have never heard the good news of Christ's sacrifice for us, must have an equally fair chance of going to heaven beacuse God would not condemn a person to Hell for what they didn't know. If you were born to Hindu parents your chance of going to heaven can not be reduced because God is equally fair to people no matter which country they are from.


Point 2 Mk 16:15-16: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

So its my duty as a Christian to help sow the seed to nonbelievers about Christ's sacrifice for us all. When a person hears Gods word and understands the message of Christ's Sacrifice he makes a decision; if he will believe in Christ or not. If he believes on Christ he will be saved if he does not believe he will be condemned for disbelief. When we tell a person about Christs Sacrifice he must make a critical life transforming decision; reject what God has offered or accept what God has offered. Receive the Blessings offered by Christ or the consequences. I am to be Gods helper in sowing the seeds in both the good and bad soil.


Point 3 I know from experiance that it is much easyer to change the life of a young person then it is to change the life of an older person and the probability that a person over a certain age accepts a new faith is very low. Changing a Muslim person or a Jew is very very very hard especially if they are an older person. Because God is fair, and he loves us all equally, a Soul that has never had the chance to here about Christ, like the Souls in the nonchristian countries, must have the same chance as I, if they have never had the fortunate chance to here Gods word. God is fair to all people he does not favor people who happen to be born in one counrty over another. Yet the chances are very low that he will make a life changing decision when he hears the gospel, the chances are very low that he will be baptized these decisions are very very hard to make they often require a lot of sacrifice. So the chances are more likely that he will be condemned for not believeing (Mk 16:15-16).

Point 4 A Christian should love his neighbour as himself; the ultimate example is Christ who laid down his life for us. It's my Christian Duty to spread this Good News to all the world. So in many cases we should not pass the Christian message on because the message could force a friend to make a critical decision that is likely to condemn him, as he must act on what he knows. His chances for Heaven are better if he does not have to make this criticaly decision because God is equaly fair no matter what country I am from. I know I love my neighbour I have muslim friends at school, I want as many peopple as possible to go to heaven so I will not tell people about the Bible because I love them and I don’t want them to have to make a decision that is most likely to condmn them. I would rather go to Hell myself then risk sending a friend to Hell by giving him or leaving him information that is statistically likely to lead him to make a decision that is very very hard for them to make. If I give a gun to a person and I think he might do something bad with it, it is partly my responsibility, I should not have given him the gun, or left it in his letter box or left it in a place that might tempt him to take it. My actions influence how other people act and if I am influencing them in a bad way I should not do that. Mk 16:15-16 says I should send out information about my faith to the world but this influence I am sending out is likely to hurt and condemn them and I don't want that because I love them! If a person could have been saved by not hearing or seeing my influence, such as a Hindu and hearing forces people to make a choice that is more likely to be the wrong choice, then hearing is bad for them. I can choose to stop people from hearing and it may help them. So I will sacrifice my own salvation because I love them! Christ gave us the ultimate self-sacrificing example of true love.



God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to. But I hate this, I wish he did not give me a mind to think it limits my faith and now I wont go to heaven because I wont share the gospel to the world and there may be no truly self-sacrificing Christians in Heaven.

Is this true, I am stuck?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You entire question is based on the false premise that people choose (by force of will) what they will believe and what they will not believe. This is not so. You believe because you are exposed to a truth that cannot be resisted due to the overwhelming integrity of the speaker.

God said something.
It is true because God said it.
It is not that I choose to accept or reject what He said.
I know it is true regardless of what I think, choose, accept or deny.
It is true. I know it true because of who said it.
I cannot possibly refute it because: "who am I to refute what God said?"
I believe it because I have no choice but to acknowledge that it is truth because of who said it.
Belief is the acknowledgement of the truth. We know it is the truth because of who said it.
Belief lies not in the ability of the hearer, but in the integrity of the speaker.

Act 17:11-12
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

"...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so: therefore many of them believed..."

They believed when they realized the things spoken were true.
They had no choice. The overwhelming integrity of the word of God forces us to believe.

 

[brian78]

So, you think that we shouldn't follow the great commission because we are condemning people to hell if they make the wrong choice and are therefore not loving them?

That's not true. You can still love someone even if they choose to reject Christ. It is not your fault they rejected the Gospel.

 

[israelthebride]

Our GOD YH'SHWH is in CONTROL
and KNOWS what HE is DOING.
HE has placed YOU where YOU are supposed to BE.

Any work HE will need YOU to do
HE will put in front of YOU.
YOU do not need to go and look for work.
Many do and lose YH'SHWH.

I read and search HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation)
and BELIEVE IT/SUBMIT to IT, because YH'SHWH WROTE it,
whether I (my own mind/flesh) believe it or not.

FAITH is SUBMITTING to HIS WAYS because HE is GOD
not because I believe HIS WAYS make sense.

Many say HIS WAYS do not fit in our society.
In our society the murder rate is so high that maybe
we should start fitting in HIS WAYS into our society.

Let us submit to HIS WAYS.

LOVE, RICOEL

 

[harmmony]

God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to. But I hate this, I wish he did not give me a mind to think it limits my faith and now I wont go to heaven because I wont share the gospel to the world and there may be no truly self-sacrificing Christians in Heaven.

Is this true, I am stuck?

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. I think you are absolutely right that God gave us freewill, my loving Him is completely meaningless otherwise. Yes, Jesus told us to tell the world about Him, but there are lots of different ways to do this. You can start by being a living witness of the love of Jesus in your life, set an example to those around you.

I don't go out and actively look for people to tell about Jesus, I simply can't it's not in me but I do ask Jesus to bring people across my path who are curious about the things of God, who can ask me questions. I am also completely honest amongst my non-Christian friends about being a Christian and so they often ask me questions and I try to live in a way that glorifies Jesus to them.

You can't control what people do with any information you give them about Jesus, it's not your reponsibilty. Don't put limits on God or the many numerous ways there are of witnessing to people about Him, perhaps you are being a witness now, but just not in the traditional way. So, don't take on responsiblities that aren't yours and be secure that if you are saved you are going to heaven.

Israelthebride - I liked your post very much.

 

[Curt]

Quote:
You entire question is based on the false premise that people choose (by force of will) what they will believe and what they will not believe. This is not so. You believe because you are exposed to a truth that cannot be resisted due to the overwhelming integrity of the speaker.

This is a false premise. It has nothing to do with force we have the freewill to choose what we will believe.

Israel, Harmony,

Very well said.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Quote:

This is a false premise. It has nothing to do with force
we have the freewill to choose what we will believe.

.

If this is true.... then decide right now to believe something you know is not true, or decide to not believe something you know is true.

You cannot do it.

The ability to believe something is totally outside of the human will and is not subject to logic and reason.
We may mentally assent to truth on a mind level. This is not faith or belief. Belief is of the heart and has nothing to do with thoughts passing through your mind. Belief comes by a revelation from God into your spirit. You cannot stop it by force of will and you cannot bring it on by force of will or functions of the mind.

 

[Curt]

If this is true.... then decide right now to believe something you know is not true, or decide to not believe something you know is true.

You cannot do it.

The ability to believe something is totally outside of the human will and is not subject to logic and reason.
We may mentally assent to truth on a mind level. This is not faith or belief. Belief is of the heart and has nothing to do with thoughts passing through your mind. Belief comes by a revelation from God into your spirit. You cannot stop it by force of will and you cannot bring it on by force of will or functions of the mind.

Boy are you deceived. First of all We are told in The Bible to bring into captivity all the thoughts and imaginations of our hearts and minds, and submit them to God. I spent 46 years of my life choosing not to believe all the people who presented The Gospel to me. I served satan to the max, and had a stone that resulted in one of the most sucessful lives of sin I have ever heard of. When I was brought to the place where there was nothing left in this life to take to my flesh that was new and exiting, and having tasted the supernatural powers of darkness I decided it would start my next pigrimage, and got the shotgun out stuck it in my mouth, put my toe on the trigger and it misfired, and in total disgust I cried out god help me meaning satan help me. But because of God's foreknowledge of what I would choose to do If I knew beyond any doubt that He is God Jesus came into that room in such a way that I knew it was Him. Then a process started in me of choosing to continue to do things my way and of course satan was right there to show me that I could use this to exploit a whole class of people that I had not even ventured into, or I could start learning about this person who had appeared just long enough to get my mind off what my intentions were and start a new thought process in motion. I drifted back and forth for a while, but because I was the ultimate ego and pride. I had to know everything I could about that side I didn't know, which is what makes a con artist successful. So I got The Bible out. It took about 6 months of reading as it pleased me to, and cruising the churches looking for the best mark, before That Word In The Bible started to pentrate the blackness in my mind. The spark that started it was the statements in Scripture about Christ fulfilling what the Prophets of old had written about Him. The rest is history, I went to The Old testiment and read the prophecies about Him, and I could not deny the fact that one of those prophecies had been fulfilled in our first encounter. I haven't been able to put The Bible down since, and I never will. So for you to come on Here and tell me that I didn't have any choice in what I believe has been proved to be false by my own experience.

 

[qbit]

God will not force a person to go to Heaven if he chooses not to for some reason. Therefore our choice effects weather we go to heaven or not because we can choose not to. Is this not the same for every one? There choice effects weather they go to heaven because they can choose not to? God will not force us agaist our will. We choose by using our minds our minds analyse how we feel and the information we have. I feel responsible for how I influence others I would not leave a gun around if I think a person may use it.

Based on my influence they could find out about christ and then once they have found out they may choose to reject christ? Before they discover christ they didn't even know about Christ so they could not reject him which is better then rejecting him.

Not knowing about Christ is better for them then if they rejecting him!

1. Why did God give us free Choice

2. Why did God give us a Brain

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Boy are you deceived.

Gee bro, I don't feel deceived!

First of all We are told in The Bible to bring into captivity all the thoughts and imaginations of our hearts and minds, and submit them to God.

Actually it does not say anything about thoughts of the heart:
2Co 10
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Faith is of the heart.... not the mind. "If you will believe in your heart...."

I spent 46 years of my life choosing not to believe all the people who presented The Gospel to me.

You spent46 years talking yourselve into the notion that you believed something that you likely believed long ago.

I served satan to the max, and had a stone that resulted in one of the most sucessful lives of sin I have ever heard of. When I was brought to the place where there was nothing left in this life to take to my flesh that was new and exiting, and having tasted the supernatural powers of darkness I decided it would start my next pigrimage, and got the shotgun out stuck it in my mouth, put my toe on the trigger and it misfired, and in total disgust I cried out god help me meaning satan help me. But because of God's foreknowledge of what I would choose to do If I knew beyond any doubt that He is God Jesus came into that room in such a way that I knew it was Him. Then a process started in me of choosing to continue to do things my way and of course satan was right there to show me that I could use this to exploit a whole class of people that I had not even ventured into, or I could start learning about this person who had appeared just long enough to get my mind off what my intentions were and start a new thought process in motion. I drifted back and forth for a while, but because I was the ultimate ego and pride. I had to know everything I could about that side I didn't know, which is what makes a con artist successful. So I got The Bible out. It took about 6 months of reading as it pleased me to, and cruising the churches looking for the best mark, before That Word In The Bible started to pentrate the blackness in my mind. The spark that started it was the statements in Scripture about Christ fulfilling what the Prophets of old had written about Him. The rest is history, I went to The Old testiment and read the prophecies about Him, and I could not deny the fact that one of those prophecies had been fulfilled in our first encounter. I haven't been able to put The Bible down since, and I never will. So for you to come on Here and tell me that I didn't have any choice in what I believe has been proved to be false by my own experience.

I like experience as long as it squares with the word of God:
Romans 10:17 KJV
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You could have skipped all that agony and just acknowledged the truth of the scripture. The trouble with going by experience, feelings, and logic...is that you can just as easily be talked out of what you were talked into. Faith is not being talked into something. Faith is being grabbed by the overwhelming integrity of the word of God and not being able to escape it's brilliance. Faith is not something that originates in the puny weak functionality of the human mind. Faith is of the spirit, or heart. I can never be talked out of the Lordship of Jesus because I was never talked into it. God said He made Jesus is lord... there is really nothing I or you or anyone can do about it:

Acts 2:36 KJV
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

You see I did not have to make Him lord... God already did. I did not have to ask Him to be Christ... God did this and there is nothing I could do to prevent it! I am helpless before these undeniable truths. There is nothing I can do to prevent them. It is truth, and the preception of that truth in the heart is belief. I believe because I have no choice. I could not stop believing if I wanted to. I have found that this is one of the most difficult concepts for the sense ruled man to comprehend. Spiritual truth is percieved in and believed in the spirit... not the mind.

1 Corinthians 2:11-13 KJV
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Blessings
Dids

 

[SavedByGrace3]

1. Why did God give us free Choice

2. Why did God give us a Brain

All the free choice and brains in the world have never saved a single soul. Not one.

Free will only plays a part in those things that are possible for you to effect. It really does not matter how many times you decide to flap your wings and fly to the moon... you are never going to accomplish that. All the free will in the universe is not going enable you to accomplish something that you cannot do. All the free will in the universe is not going to enable you to draw a round square, derive the square root of a -1, or go backward in time. These things are not within your power to do and no amount of free will is going to enable you to do any of them.
Free will, no matter how free or how determined, is never going to produce faith. Faith does not exist in your mind. Your mind has emotions, memory, and some others functions. But not faith. Faith is of the heart. Faith is spiritual...not mental. You can memorize the Bible from cover to cover, decide every possible decision there is to decide, and write a million page book about God and Spiritual truth. These things in themselves will not generate one dot of faith in your heart. The only thing in the universe that generates faith in your heart is a word from God. If the Spirit of Truth does not speak truth into your heart.... you have no faith.

Trying to live for God out of the mental realm is the textbook defintion of a carnal Christian. He is doomed to failture, and is totally incapable of seeing why. The spiritual man walks in the spirit, walks in faith, and walks in love. No decisions, apart from the one that says "Yes, I am what He says I am, I do what he says I do, and I am becoming what He says I am becoming. Thereby we overcome the world, and all that is in the world, by faith.

NOT BY WILLPOWER.
NOT BY LOGIC OR REASON.

BY FAITH~

Dids

 

[harmmony]

Based on my influence they could find out about christ and then once they have found out they may choose to reject christ? Before they discover christ they didn't even know about Christ so they could not reject him which is better then rejecting him.

Not knowing about Christ is better for them then if they rejecting him!

1. Why did God give us free Choice

2. Why did God give us a Brain

You haven't considered it from another point of view, what if they don't know about Jesus and you tell them and then they actually make a decision for Jesus and become saved and if you hadn't said anything they wouldn't have? I think it would be quite unusual for anyone living in modern circumstances to only hear about the gospel from you anyway, you are mostly a link in God's big chain. A person may need to hear the gospel from a 100 different people before they become saved. But, without you it would only have been 99 people and that might make a difference.

I also think you are using the word influence in the wrong circumstances, you can't influence a person to have a relationship with Jesus or not. You can only tell them the gospel, you are giving yourself way too much power in the situation. What they do with any information you give them is not your responsibility, only to tell them is.

God gave us free wil because if He made us love Him and didn't allow us to choose to love Him, as far as I'm concerned then we may as well be brainless and heartless creations. But, as someone else said you choose to love God using your heart, not your brain.

 

[SeraphWolf79]

God gave us free wil because if He made us love Him and didn't allow us to choose to love Him, as far as I'm concerned then we may as well be brainless and heartless creations. But, as someone else said you choose to love God using your heart, not your brain.

Well said, harmmony

 

[qbit]

The only thing in the universe that generates faith in your heart is a word from God. If the Spirit of Truth does not speak truth into your heart.... you have no faith.
NOT BY WILLPOWER.
NOT BY LOGIC OR REASON.

BY FAITH~

Dids

Thank you for your help

Do I have control over wither the spirit of truth speaks to my heart, or does it happen at random. Is it just as likely that it will speak to me as any other person? Or are there free choices that I can make, that make it more likely that I will here a word from God to my heart?

If I don't have a choice and I need to here the word of God speaking to my heart to be saved, my free choice becomes pointless on things that really matter, even to the extent that we really become as good as robots.

If my choice does affect my hearing of the word of God doesn't this choice become the critical point of my salvation as the other is now just a matter of time?

 

[Reformationist]

You didn't give the option to disagree with all of them. If you did, that would be the one I would have chosen.

God bless

 

[ema0941]

Where in the Bible does it say 'God is fair'?

It says God is 'Just', i.e. gives justice, but I don't see that that is quite the same thing. Anybody got any thoughts on that one?

I'm afraid I can't reply to the poll as I don't quite agree completely with any of the points. My understanding is we all have free will but we can not become Christians without the work of the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit works in our lives then He is irrestisible.

 

[MarkT]

They believed when they realized the things spoken were true.

They had no choice. The overwhelming integrity of the word of God forces us to believe.

That's right, hearing they believed. It is a matter of becoming aware of the fact that God is your Father and your biological nature really isn't you at all, merely the stuff God animated. But then God can animate stones if wants to. Life is in the spirit.

 

[harmmony]

Thank you for your help

Do I have control over wither the spirit of truth speaks to my heart, or does it happen at random. Is it just as likely that it will speak to me as any other person? Or are there free choices that I can make, that make it more likely that I will here a word from God to my heart?

If I don't have a choice and I need to here the word of God speaking to my heart to be saved, my free choice becomes pointless on things that really matter, even to the extent that we really become as good as robots.

If my choice does affect my hearing of the word of God doesn't this choice become the critical point of my salvation as the other is now just a matter of time?

This is what I believe. Yes, it is clear from the scriptures that a man/woman can only be saved when they are quickened, or drawn by God, (that is according to John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.)
BUT a man/woman can still choose to ignore that drawing and it will be respected by God.

According to the scripture in John 12:32 - But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Which I interpret to say that each man/woman during His lifetime will be drawn to God and have the opportunity to respond to that call and receive salvation, or he/she can choose not to repond. I believe that no man will die without having had an opportunity to receive salvation. BUT free will always presides.

So on your question - yes you need to hear God speaking to your heart to be saved, BUT you can still accept or reject that drawing and according to the scriptures God will call all men unto Himself, therefore all men will have the chance to accept or reject that calling. So, you have absolutely no power in the situation when it comes to whether or not a person will be saved when you share with them. It is only your reponsibility to share, that's it, you have no power over them or God from there on.

And when you say "hear a Word from God in your heart" are you referring to being called by God to salvation here, or are you talking about in your everyday life as a Christian, because I believe that God is talking to His children all the time, it's up to us to listen. And no you have no power over when, where, how and why God chooses to speak to anyone, including yourself.