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Help I don't really understand this

Can you please tell me which points you agree with (thank you)

  • Agree with 1 only

  • Agree with 2 only

  • Agree with 3 only

  • Agree with 1,2 only

  • Agree with 2,3 only

  • Agree with 1,2,3 only

  • Agree with all


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qbit

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I am sorry I woke up the other morning and immediately I had this question it almost came from nowhere, I am now stuck and I don’t know what choice to make? The replies to the last thread I posted, most didn't really help me understand. I have tried to make this clearer so can you please tell me in the poll which points you agree with and which ones you don’t and where I am wrong? Thanks

Point 1 God is a fair God all people are equaly special to him none are more valuble. There are millions of people who have never had the chance to hear about God beacause they were not lucky like me to be born in the right counrty at the right time in the histry of the world. Because God is fair these people who have never heard the good news of Christ's sacrifice for us, must have an equally fair chance of going to heaven beacuse God would not condemn a person to Hell for what they didn't know. If you were born to Hindu parents your chance of going to heaven can not be reduced because God is equally fair to people no matter which country they are from.


Point 2 Mk 16:15-16: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

So its my duty as a Christian to help sow the seed to nonbelievers about Christ's sacrifice for us all. When a person hears Gods word and understands the message of Christ's Sacrifice he makes a decision; if he will believe in Christ or not. If he believes on Christ he will be saved if he does not believe he will be condemned for disbelief. When we tell a person about Christs Sacrifice he must make a critical life transforming decision; reject what God has offered or accept what God has offered. Receive the Blessings offered by Christ or the consequences. I am to be Gods helper in sowing the seeds in both the good and bad soil.


Point 3 I know from experiance that it is much easyer to change the life of a young person then it is to change the life of an older person and the probability that a person over a certain age accepts a new faith is very low. Changing a Muslim person or a Jew is very very very hard especially if they are an older person. Because God is fair, and he loves us all equally, a Soul that has never had the chance to here about Christ, like the Souls in the nonchristian countries, must have the same chance as I, if they have never had the fortunate chance to here Gods word. God is fair to all people he does not favor people who happen to be born in one counrty over another. Yet the chances are very low that he will make a life changing decision when he hears the gospel, the chances are very low that he will be baptized these decisions are very very hard to make they often require a lot of sacrifice. So the chances are more likely that he will be condemned for not believeing (Mk 16:15-16).

Point 4 A Christian should love his neighbour as himself; the ultimate example is Christ who laid down his life for us. It's my Christian Duty to spread this Good News to all the world. So in many cases we should not pass the Christian message on because the message could force a friend to make a critical decision that is likely to condemn him, as he must act on what he knows. His chances for Heaven are better if he does not have to make this criticaly decision because God is equaly fair no matter what country I am from. I know I love my neighbour I have muslim friends at school, I want as many peopple as possible to go to heaven so I will not tell people about the Bible because I love them and I don’t want them to have to make a decision that is most likely to condmn them. I would rather go to Hell myself then risk sending a friend to Hell by giving him or leaving him information that is statistically likely to lead him to make a decision that is very very hard for them to make. If I give a gun to a person and I think he might do something bad with it, it is partly my responsibility, I should not have given him the gun, or left it in his letter box or left it in a place that might tempt him to take it. My actions influence how other people act and if I am influencing them in a bad way I should not do that. Mk 16:15-16 says I should send out information about my faith to the world but this influence I am sending out is likely to hurt and condemn them and I don't want that because I love them! If a person could have been saved by not hearing or seeing my influence, such as a Hindu and hearing forces people to make a choice that is more likely to be the wrong choice, then hearing is bad for them. I can choose to stop people from hearing and it may help them. So I will sacrifice my own salvation because I love them! Christ gave us the ultimate self-sacrificing example of true love.



God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to. But I hate this, I wish he did not give me a mind to think it limits my faith and now I wont go to heaven because I wont share the gospel to the world and there may be no truly self-sacrificing Christians in Heaven.

Is this true, I am stuck?
 

Rechtgläubig

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qbit,

You seem to think that Faith is something that is chosen. Faith is a gift from God not a decision. "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)



We are to fish for men so cast out your net and preach the Gospel, let the Holy Spirit do the catching.

God Bless :wave:

("Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." *Romans 10:17*)
 
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ChiRho

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Rechtgläubig said:
qbit,

You seem to think that Faith is something that is chosen. Faith is a gift from God not a decision. "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)



We are to fish for men so cast out your net and preach the Gospel, let the Holy Spirit do the catching.

God Bless :wave:

("Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." *Romans 10:17*)

He is right. I believe that you have discovered the problem with "ignorance/saves" and the problem with the "age of accountablility."

I will return with a post in a while.

May the Peace of the Lord, Christ Jesus, be with you always!

ps. you need one more option "disagree with all points" without it I cannot vote!
 
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wisdom67

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You had four points, and only three choices. And if we didn't agree with any of them then we have no vote?

My pastor had a sermon a few weeks ago and told us that those people in the jungles of Africa who have never been afforded with the opportunity to hear the gospel are not exempt from God's judgment. Just because they hadn't heard the gospel doesn't mean they get a free pass. Much the same way that those who are Muslim or Hindu or Buddhists (pick your alternate faith) and have never heard about Jesus aren't exempt from the judgment day.

My pastor gave us a few verses to back up what he was saying, but I didn't write them down. He also made it clear that it is not our job to "save the world". We are to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, and follow it's direction for our lives. If we are obedient and do as God would instruct us, then He will lead us down the path to where we need to go.

But saying that those that never heard about Jesus won't be condemned is not truth. That argument would drive you nuts, especially considering all of the variables that go into it - such as infant death, abortion, retardation (inability to clearly comprehend a coherent thought).

To make this simple, and ease the guilt evidently on your mind just pray about it - seek the guidance of the Spirit, and go forward in your walk. God will guide you. It's his job to lead you, and it's your job to be obedient. But to carry the burden of every non-believers guilt and sin on your shoulders is definitely not our job. Today we have that perfect sacrifice through Jesus' death on the cross. He died for these people. Cast your burdens on Jesus - he will give you rest. (I forget the specific Psalm, but it's there).
 
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ChiRho

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Although I would agree that it is faith and faith alone that saves, I must dissent with the idea that faith requires the ability to clearly comprehend a coherent thought.

We certainly do NOT reason our way to faith, on any level! Faith by Grace, is strictly a gift reckoned by God to us. There are means by which God distributes that Grace, namely, Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, Holy Communion, and Holy Scripture. Salvation was achieved upon the Cross almost 2000 years ago, and reaches us today by means.

In Holy Baptism and Holy Communion, substance and Word share one place.
Christ, in true Physical Presence, comes to us by placing Himself in and under the water (Baptism), and in and under the bread and wine (Communion). A Divine Mystery of God in which true earthly substance remains in it's element, but with the Words of Institution, God is physically present as well.

God comes to us in these Sacraments, not only to create the saving faith, but also to sustain us truely! It is for our reassurance. It is true that hearing the Word creates and sustains faith just as the Sacraments do, but like you noticed, we cannot tell whether an infant has heard. Praise be to God that He has given to us Holy Baptism. For when we are truely Washed, we are bonded to Christ, we are His!-He has claimed us. If Baptism were merely symbolic, it would carry no meaning, nor real purpose at all. Placing Baptism into the symbolic directs the meaning back onto ourselves. We know what lies within us, for Christ says "it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out!" So, understanding Baptism to be the complete work of God and of no effort of man is true and correct.

But one may say there is no precedent for a child to have faith. I would point directly to the Gospel of Luke, for It says,

Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,
40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?
44 "For behold, when th[ e sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.
45 "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."

John certainly had faith even in the womb and through the voice of Mary and through the ears of Elizabeth, he heard his Salvation!

Life is not a game. Real Life is offered in Baptism. Please do not keep the children from the font! Do not deny them the Sacrament for our inability to understand how God works such mysteries and miracles. Instead, with babe in arm, do not flee from, but sprint to the font!

In the name of Jesus. Amen.
 
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Flynmonkie

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qbit said:
Point 1 God is a fair God all people are equaly special to him none are more valuble. There are millions of people who have never had the chance to hear about God beacause they were not lucky like me to be born in the right counrty at the right time in the histry of the world. Because God is fair these people who have never heard the good news of Christ's sacrifice for us, must have an equally fair chance of going to heaven beacuse God would not condemn a person to Hell for what they didn't know. If you were born to Hindu parents your chance of going to heaven can not be reduced because God is equally fair to people no matter which country they are from.

I agree with this to an extent. I have no idea and you have no idea what someones heart condition is in. Only God does. Your responsibility is to live a christian lifestyle and spread his word. He does the rest :)


Point 2 Mk 16:15-16: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

You are how he "calls" people. Through you sharing his gospel.


Point 3
THis is not for you to worry about. This is Gods business.

Point 4

This again is NOT your concern, this is Gods Business. Do you not think that God knows what he is doing. You should be happy to share the gospel with people because God then can work on their hearts. You cannot change a persons heart, only God can. We must always remember this.


God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to.
You should be thankful for this grace of choice he has given to us. And use it wisely. Apply everything you are thinking to scripture, test it, see if this is what you really think God intends.


Is this true, I am stuck?

Not entirely.:hug:
 
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LynneClomina

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qbit, i couldnt vote because i disagree with ALL the points. none of them are entirely biblical. i shall try to elaborate between quotes.
qbit said:
Point 1 God is a fair God all people are equaly special to him none are more valuble.
some say God is not fair - he is just. i say he IS fair - becuase sinners have been fairly tried and recieved their fair justice - the penalty they deserve - hell. semantics really. :)
There are millions of people who have never had the chance to hear about God beacause they were not lucky like me to be born in the right counrty at the right time in the histry of the world.
not true - if they are predestined to salvation, someone WILL come and preach to them.... or, if they do not, they will be given the faith that the patriarchs had - the there is one true God, and we are sinners, and that God will make a way.... but i dont personally understand how, without having heard the gospel in SOME form. if one NEVER hears, they were never predestined to salvation to begin with.
Because God is fair these people who have never heard the good news of Christ's sacrifice for us, must have an equally fair chance of going to heaven beacuse God would not condemn a person to Hell for what they didn't know.
a fair chance? do they deserve that chance? no. do they have a chance? no - it's not up to them to get saved by believeing - God saves (regenerates) them and thus believe. lots of churches teach it backwards - and that sounds like what you have been taught.
If you were born to Hindu parents your chance of going to heaven can not be reduced because God is equally fair to people no matter which country they are from.
again, irrelevant - there is no "chance" or 50/50 or 40/60, or 20/80 either. either you are predestined to salvation or you are not. there is no "chance" involved. some might call it 50/50, but i dont becuase there is no "chance" - it's been determined long long ago.


Point 2 Mk 16:15-16: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

So its my duty as a Christian to help sow the seed to nonbelievers about Christ's sacrifice for us all. When a person hears Gods word and understands the message of Christ's Sacrifice he makes a decision;
no. he cannot decide for himself. he is a sinful fallen man who has no good in his heart and cannot do good - and becuase his heart is thoroughly wicked, he does not want to do any good. so if faced with the gospel message, if he is not at that time regenerated (born again), he WILL reject it. he cant accept it. it's not possible.
if he will believe in Christ or not. If he believes on Christ he will be saved if he does not believe he will be condemned for disbelief.
no - that is the backwards part. it is not "first believe, then saved", it's "saved so we can believe". and we WILL believe. becuase God has put the desire in our hearts for Him that was not there before. that is why it is "BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH". it is BY GRACE in that God gives it to us, that is the source so to speak, and reaches completion THROUGH FAITH. GRACE is always followed by FAITH, and FAITH is always after GRACE. can have one without the other.
When we tell a person about Christs Sacrifice he must make a critical life transforming decision; reject what God has offered or accept what God has offered. Receive the Blessings offered by Christ or the consequences.
again, he can't decide.
I am to be Gods helper in sowing the seeds in both the good and bad soil.
yes. because faith comes through hearing, and who can hear if nobody preaches?


Point 3 I know from experiance that it is much easyer to change the life of a young person then it is to change the life of an older person and the probability that a person over a certain age accepts a new faith is very low. Changing a Muslim person or a Jew is very very very hard especially if they are an older person.
must not sow or not sow becuase of statistics. have you ever heard the story of the pearl diver? it was a true story of an elderly hindu (i believe) who finally "got it" about Christ and was saved.
Because God is fair, and he loves us all equally,
there ARE some things God hates...

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. 5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

a Soul that has never had the chance to here about Christ, like the Souls in the nonchristian countries, must have the same chance as I,
there is no chance
if they have never had the fortunate chance to here Gods word.
there is no "fortune".
God is fair to all people he does not favor people who happen to be born in one counrty over another.
not based on country, no, but on other things yes. does psalm 5:5,6 sound like He favors everybody???{quote]Yet the chances are very low that he will make a life changing decision when he hears the gospel, the chances are very low that he will be baptized these decisions are very very hard to make they often require a lot of sacrifice. So the chances are more likely that he will be condemned for not believeing (Mk 16:15-16). [/quote] a person who never hears is still condemned for not beliveing - becuase they havent heard anything to believe in. if they never hear it, how can the believe it?

Point 4 A Christian should love his neighbour as himself; the ultimate example is Christ who laid down his life for us. It's my Christian Duty to spread this Good News to all the world.
good so far.....
So in many cases we should not pass the Christian message on because the message could force a friend to make a critical decision that is likely to condemn him, as he must act on what he knows.
what??? no no no no no. wrong. :hug: his failure to decide for Christ is not what sends him to hell, it is his sinful state. which he still has even if he never hears the gospel. so not sharing the gospel with them is NOT doing them any favors...
His chances for Heaven are better if he does not have to make this criticaly decision because God is equaly fair no matter what country I am from. I know I love my neighbour I have muslim friends at school, I want as many peopple as possible to go to heaven so I will not tell people about the Bible because I love them and I don’t want them to have to make a decision that is most likely to condmn them. I would rather go to Hell myself then risk sending a friend to Hell by giving him or leaving him information that is statistically likely to lead him to make a decision that is very very hard for them to make. If I give a gun to a person and I think he might do something bad with it, it is partly my responsibility, I should not have given him the gun, or left it in his letter box or left it in a place that might tempt him to take it.
the gospel is the GOOD news, NEVER the BAD news. it is not a weapon, it is the opposite - it brings life.
My actions influence how other people act and if I am influencing them in a bad way I should not do that. Mk 16:15-16 says I should send out information about my faith to the world but this influence I am sending out is likely to hurt and condemn them and I don't want that because I love them! If a person could have been saved by not hearing or seeing my influence, such as a Hindu and hearing forces people to make a choice that is more likely to be the wrong choice, then hearing is bad for them. I can choose to stop people from hearing and it may help them. So I will sacrifice my own salvation because I love them! Christ gave us the ultimate self-sacrificing example of true love.
sorry, friend, this is VERY wrong logic. it is SO not what the bible tells us. i truly wish i understood why you have this conviction!
God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to.
we need to have a good discussion on free will. because, yes, we choose to do whatever we do in life, but it isnt really free. we are bound to choose ONLY what we most desire. and while our hearts are unregenerate, we will NEVER desire Christ. but when our hearts ARE regenerated, we ALWAYS desire Christ. and so we choose him, we WANT to, but again, we are still bound to following our strongest desires. so we have free will, but it is not really free.
But I hate this, I wish he did not give me a mind to think it limits my faith and now I wont go to heaven because I wont share the gospel to the world and there may be no truly self-sacrificing Christians in Heaven.
hey, if you are really saved, you will NOT go to hell for not sharing the gospel. but if you ARE saved, you truly desire to see ppl saved and WANT to share the gospel. in your case, it sounds like just that. you WANT to share the gospel with everyone, but you have this bound up area where you fear it will have the opposite result of saving - that it will condemn. and God has grace for you in that while you are sorting it out. just keep asking questions, ok?
Is this true, I am stuck?
not beyond being pulled out of the rut. :hug: dont worry, you'll figure it out. :idea:

blessings,
Lynne
 
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qbit

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If we dont have choice there is no point in existing. Why did God make us if we are just robots, with no control over our future we are slaves. I would hate a God like that, I am the person that would do the oppostite just to see what happens. Also if there is no freedom there can be no good or bad everything just is as it is, things can not be compared beacsue comparison is about weigh outcomes based on prospective choice.
 
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Qbit,

God's choice in choosing you to be his child BEFORE the foundation of the world (i.e., predestination) and you free will to choose to follow God in Christ (free will) are BOTH EQUALLY TRUE!!!

It is not either/or but BOTH!

Now, how can this be? I dunno. But it is. Both are biblical principles and both are in the Word of God. You ask difficult questions that even skilled biblical scholars cannot fully comprehend to explain to sons of dust.

But you must trust God and remember, that those who have never ever had the chance to hear the gospel of Jesus (before Jesus or since Jesus) will be judged fairly by Him. Our only responsibility is to go follow Him and obey. Do not let your faith be shaken by problems bigger than yourself because you must let God be God. Your part is obedience to Him.
 
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LynneClomina

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qbit said:
If we dont have choice there is no point in existing. Why did God make us if we are just robots, with no control over our future we are slaves. I would hate a God like that, I am the person that would do the oppostite just to see what happens. Also if there is no freedom there can be no good or bad everything just is as it is, things can not be compared beacsue comparison is about weigh outcomes based on prospective choice.
you're not a robot, you do choose all your deciscions based on the desires of your own heart. if your desire is for something, you will choose it.

no, you dont technically have control over your future - nobody does anyways, saved or not.

yes, we are slaves, either to sin, or to righteousness. God didnt make us slaves to sin, we did that ourselves, at the fall.

if you would hate a God like that.....then i hate to tell you, but God IS like that.

God is not who we want Him to be, He is who He is. "I AM".
 
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qbit

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To choose means you have options. If our future is already planed we have no other future to choose and in such a system there can be no Grace beacuse we cannot be accountable for our actions if we had no options. If we have no control over our future we must then be an automation, a robot! A set future means no options, no options means no accountability beacuse we had no other choice, no accountability means no grace and no grace means no love. The ability to make choices about our future is integral to the concept of grace!

I dont understand how you can hold a position of no choice yet still see a God of love and grace.
 
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LynneClomina

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ok, see this:

there are two doors in front of you. they are two options you must choose from. they involve your future.

door #1 involves doing something that will help you to provide for your family better, but is not entirely ethical, and you know it.

door #2 involves doing the what is ethical in the situation, but at a personal expense.

which door do you choose? you weigh between doing the right thing and providing for your family, or doing the right thing and handling the situation ethically. both have pros and cons. God has it all planned out for you, but you have no idea which is the way you should go. hmm.

after much consideration and prayer, you go through the door of your choice. the door opens into your future; it was the "right" choice. oh, cool. i'm glad God put the desire in my heart to open that door. i dont know what i would have dont had i made the wrong decision. (even though this future may not be exactly what you planned - it is your future nonetheless.)

did you make that choice? yes, you totally made your own decision.

what you didnt know is that behind the other door was a brick wall - it wasnt really an option after all, but you didnt know that when you were making your decision. it appeared to be an option, but you had absolutely no way of knowing that it actually wasn't.

so what would have happened had you chosen the door with the brick wall behind it?

that would not have happened.

why? because our desire is NEVER for that door. because God only gives us the desire to go where He is ultimately is taking us - the door that leads to his plan, the door that leads to our future. the other door doesnt really exist.

so yes, we do make a totally autonomous choice, based on what we most want to do; and yes, God has planned it all out from the beginning of time.

it's not and either/or situation, it is a BOTH situation. they totally work in sync.
 
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qbit

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There is a conection between choice and desire.

You say we have free choice to choose which door, but if our desire is what determines what we choose and all our desires are only where God is taking us then we could never make any other choice because we would never have had any other desires. Hence if we could have had no other desires then their can be no grace beacuse it would be imposible for us to have gone any other way and we cant be accountable for actions as we could never have chosen anything else because we would have never any other desires. If there is no Grace love is meaninless because it requires acceptance inspite of our actions. "inspite of" means we could have gone another way.

Do you see the relationship between desire, choice, grace and love.

We must have freedom over desire and choice inorder to have a God of Grace and Love.
 
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citygirl

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qbit said:
If we dont have choice there is no point in existing. Why did God make us if we are just robots, with no control over our future we are slaves. I would hate a God like that, I am the person that would do the oppostite just to see what happens. Also if there is no freedom there can be no good or bad everything just is as it is, things can not be compared beacsue comparison is about weigh outcomes based on prospective choice.
Hi - just wanted to let you know I agree with you - that we are not "robots". I do not believe in Predestination (that is a very hotly debated topic in Christian circles, and all Christians do not believe in it). I believe that we each make a personal choice whether to believe in Jesus Christ or not. I do not believe that God predestins some of us to be saved and some of us not to. I encourage you to investigate what each side has to say and then come to your own conclusions.
 
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citygirl said:
Hi - just wanted to let you know I agree with you - that we are not "robots". I do not believe in Predestination (that is a very hotly debated topic in Christian circles, and all Christians do not believe in it). I believe that we each make a personal choice whether to believe in Jesus Christ or not. I do not believe that God predestins some of us to be saved and some of us not to. I encourage you to investigate what each side has to say and then come to your own conclusions.

If you don't believe in predestination, you might want to look into the Bible.



2Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Thessalonains 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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Flynmonkie

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citygirl said:
Hi - just wanted to let you know I agree with you - that we are not "robots". I do not believe in Predestination (that is a very hotly debated topic in Christian circles, and all Christians do not believe in it). I believe that we each make a personal choice whether to believe in Jesus Christ or not. I do not believe that God predestins some of us to be saved and some of us not to. I encourage you to investigate what each side has to say and then come to your own conclusions.

Amen Citygirl!! I also do not believe this predestination and election slant either when it comes to salvation. I pray every day that people will stop saying this to others it is awful...and it paints a horrible picture of my Father. I mean really, who would want to trust in something that does not keep his promises! He does. People just do not seem to get it. I worry about the people that it sends the wrong way, it saddens me. Man muddies up the bible trying to percieve it with our meager minds, rather than allowing God to work in their hears, through the Holy Spirit. To me, the bible is quite simple to understand. If I come to a point that I am lost I pray. He shows me the way. He promises he did not give us something we would not be able to understand. However I am sure you agree predestination does come into play, but not with our free will to choose between Heaven and Hell, Gods grace of salvation or not. Once we accept his gift..and fear him..and love him....he has us predestined to Heaven!! We all have the oppourtunity to become his elect! No question in my mind. However all will not be saved, not all will make this choice.

bulldog,:) you know I love your posts! We think alot alike...but I have to say that I disagree on this point. (I think so far this is the only one!) But that is for another thread entirely!! ;) Many scholars and theologians have debated this for years. But if you take the time to look at the other side of the coin, try to disprove it and pray for a bit - I believe you will see this too (coming from someone whom thought she was quite calvinistic...and still carry many of the Calvinistic traits...but not on these subjects!):hug:

Qbit I would like to caution you on this subject. I think for now you should just spend time in prayer with him. After all, once your saved does it really matter? No. Changing hearts is Gods business. Not ours. Sharing his word is uplifting. If for the time being you feel uncomfortable with these things. Do not worry about any one elses walk with him, until you are more comfortable in your walk. This subject has been debated for centuries, and to tell the truth, it could really styme your growth. I would set it aside for a while, and pray. He will lead you back with the answers as he sees fit! Just have faith in that! I am keeping you in my prayers:prayer: :hug:
 
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citygirl

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Flynmonkie said:
Man muddies up the bible trying to percieve it with our meager minds, rather than allowing God to work in their hears, through the Holy Spirit.
Flynmonkie,
Yes - I totally agree with you!! Who can know the mind of God? Not any of us humans! God has only revealed so much to us, and obviously with the division on this subject in Christian circles, its not a decisive truth revealed, like the death and resurrection of Christ. We need to focus on what unites us, not the differences!
 
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Blessed2003

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qbit said:
I am sorry I woke up the other morning and immediately I had this question it almost came from nowhere, I am now stuck and I don’t know what choice to make? The replies to the last thread I posted, most didn't really help me understand. I have tried to make this clearer so can you please tell me in the poll which points you agree with and which ones you don’t and where I am wrong? Thanks

Point 1 God is a fair God all people are equaly special to him none are more valuble. There are millions of people who have never had the chance to hear about God beacause they were not lucky like me to be born in the right counrty at the right time in the histry of the world. Because God is fair these people who have never heard the good news of Christ's sacrifice for us, must have an equally fair chance of going to heaven beacuse God would not condemn a person to Hell for what they didn't know. If you were born to Hindu parents your chance of going to heaven can not be reduced because God is equally fair to people no matter which country they are from.


Point 2 Mk 16:15-16: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

So its my duty as a Christian to help sow the seed to nonbelievers about Christ's sacrifice for us all. When a person hears Gods word and understands the message of Christ's Sacrifice he makes a decision; if he will believe in Christ or not. If he believes on Christ he will be saved if he does not believe he will be condemned for disbelief. When we tell a person about Christs Sacrifice he must make a critical life transforming decision; reject what God has offered or accept what God has offered. Receive the Blessings offered by Christ or the consequences. I am to be Gods helper in sowing the seeds in both the good and bad soil.


Point 3 I know from experiance that it is much easyer to change the life of a young person then it is to change the life of an older person and the probability that a person over a certain age accepts a new faith is very low. Changing a Muslim person or a Jew is very very very hard especially if they are an older person. Because God is fair, and he loves us all equally, a Soul that has never had the chance to here about Christ, like the Souls in the nonchristian countries, must have the same chance as I, if they have never had the fortunate chance to here Gods word. God is fair to all people he does not favor people who happen to be born in one counrty over another. Yet the chances are very low that he will make a life changing decision when he hears the gospel, the chances are very low that he will be baptized these decisions are very very hard to make they often require a lot of sacrifice. So the chances are more likely that he will be condemned for not believeing (Mk 16:15-16).

Point 4 A Christian should love his neighbour as himself; the ultimate example is Christ who laid down his life for us. It's my Christian Duty to spread this Good News to all the world. So in many cases we should not pass the Christian message on because the message could force a friend to make a critical decision that is likely to condemn him, as he must act on what he knows. His chances for Heaven are better if he does not have to make this criticaly decision because God is equaly fair no matter what country I am from. I know I love my neighbour I have muslim friends at school, I want as many peopple as possible to go to heaven so I will not tell people about the Bible because I love them and I don’t want them to have to make a decision that is most likely to condmn them. I would rather go to Hell myself then risk sending a friend to Hell by giving him or leaving him information that is statistically likely to lead him to make a decision that is very very hard for them to make. If I give a gun to a person and I think he might do something bad with it, it is partly my responsibility, I should not have given him the gun, or left it in his letter box or left it in a place that might tempt him to take it. My actions influence how other people act and if I am influencing them in a bad way I should not do that. Mk 16:15-16 says I should send out information about my faith to the world but this influence I am sending out is likely to hurt and condemn them and I don't want that because I love them! If a person could have been saved by not hearing or seeing my influence, such as a Hindu and hearing forces people to make a choice that is more likely to be the wrong choice, then hearing is bad for them. I can choose to stop people from hearing and it may help them. So I will sacrifice my own salvation because I love them! Christ gave us the ultimate self-sacrificing example of true love.



God loves us he gave us the free choice to choose and question right and wrong so that we are not robots and are forced to obey commands we are blind to. But I hate this, I wish he did not give me a mind to think it limits my faith and now I wont go to heaven because I wont share the gospel to the world and there may be no truly self-sacrificing Christians in Heaven.

Is this true, I am stuck?

Your heart is absolutley in the right place as far as I'm concerned. I have struggled with these issues my self. Listen to me, we have what I call (There are soooo many who suffer with this illness;) ) anyway, it is what I call "Save the World Syndrome" You would be suprised, I would bet EVERY child of God has this syndrome, why, because by our Love the world will know us. WE LOVE. There is nothing wrong with that, but you have got to be realistic, NO one is going to hell because of you, if they don't accept the message right then, maybe they will later, it is GOD's job, not yours. He is able to save....ANYONE....In other countries, God will reach them, if Budda is what they call God what is that to us??? God has many names, none of which we "coined" He is Jehovah, The Great I AM, Yahyeh (spelling bad) anyway, you get the point. God is capeable of calling His own through His Son. Seriously, I worry too, but remember God Loves them WAY more than we do. He made them, Jesus said He would not lose even One from His hand. The issue really is what is your responsibility, and what is God's. Trust Him, He is faithful, we are not....Also, you need to evaluate every situation, mostly we can win over others without a word. They don't want to be preached at. You will know, if the opportunity comes up make SURE you let others know Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. But don't think you have to shove it down anyone's throat. God does that...LOL I Love you. God Loves You, and He Loves them too....Don't worry, just Trust and Obey....There is no other way...
God Bless you ALways, :pink:
 
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