Help from Skeptics

[quatona]

Yes you are mistaken.

You are in the wrong thread.

From the OP: I work with a collegiate ministry. We have some upcoming training for our students during which we want to help them begin wrestling with their faith and thinking critically about their faith. Our plan is to walk them through our statement of faith and then to give them critical questions to think about and try to answer in the hope they would come to a deeper understanding of what they believe.(emphasis added)

Personally, I am giving brightlights the benefit of the doubt that he doesn´t want to present his students skeptical/critical question just so he can answer them by simply saying "You are mistaken."

 

[Lord Emsworth]

And the definition of an unfaithful belief is......

You are going with what you think is the most likely. And if there are toughts or evidence which changes the likelihoods, it is "Bye, Bye Baby."

 

[Decrescendo]

I'll give it a shot:

How do you prove the Bible is inspired, inerrant etc without saying "because it says it is"?

Everything else pretty much depends on that whole inspired word of God part. If you can demonstrate that it is the inspired word, then logically most everything that follows must also be true. The rest is just based on semantics in interpreting scripture.

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that you expect questions like "why should I believe the part about...?" and then get to answer with "the Bible says...".

To a skeptic, there is only one question : "Why should I believe that the Bible is true?"

 

[brightlights]

Since these would be issues within Christian doctrine they don´t fall into the competence of a skeptic who is merely asked to take a look at the creeds you have posted. That´s why I suggested you Christians discuss them among yourselves.
But since you asked me: When I take a look at the Christian descriptions and definitions of "man/human" and "God" they mostly signify irreconcilable differences and even downright antagonisms.
E.g.: Physical vs. non-physical, sinful vs. sinless, imperfect vs. perfect, natural sin vs. sinlessness, temporal vs. eternal. limited vs. omni-whatever etc.
If I am not mistaken, a lot of Christian doctrines downright hinge on these irreconcilabilities.

According to Christian theology, "sinful" is not a necessary aspect of humanity. Quite the opposite. Sin diminishes humanity. It makes a person less human. Jesus was fully human in that he was without sin. The same can be said of "imperfect". Jesus was a perfect human -- meaning a human as humanity was intended to be. Whole and lacking nothing that should go with humanness.

Christian theology doesn't teach that God is a man. It teaches that God became a man. He added humanity to his divinity. So while every other human is finite (has a beginning but, according to Christianity, not an end) Jesus is not. He was born, but he existed before he was born. In this way he is totally unique.

Christians believe, though, that Jesus did take on human limitations in becoming man. He himself says that he did nothing that his disciples (other humans) won't also do.

 

[KCfromNC]

What problems does it pose?

Looking at history, quite a few : List of Christian heresies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted some of these are more a problem with the "three in one" part of the statement, but it's pretty obvious that this simple phrase is anything but straightforward.

 

[KCfromNC]

To a skeptic, there is only one question : "Why should I believe that the Bible is true?"

Nope, there's also things like "what the heck do you mean by god", "is religious testimony reliable", "should personal revelation trump objective fact", "is faith a viable way to gain knowledge", "why does the history of religious belief look an awful lot like politics in action", "is it meaningful to claim you believe in something which is defined to be a mystery", and so on.

 

[KCfromNC]

According to Christian theology, "sinful" is not a necessary aspect of humanity. Quite the opposite. Sin diminishes humanity. It makes a person less human. Jesus was fully human in that he was without sin. The same can be said of "imperfect". Jesus was a perfect human -- meaning a human as humanity was intended to be. Whole and lacking nothing that should go with humanness.

Christian theology doesn't teach that God is a man. It teaches that God became a man. He added humanity to his divinity. So while every other human is finite (has a beginning but, according to Christianity, not an end) Jesus is not. He was born, but he existed before he was born. In this way he is totally unique.

A skeptic might ask - why do you seek to show that Jesus was human by describing a bunch of ways in which he was different from any human ever known? Are you appealing to some sort of neo-Platonism here?

 

[brightlights]

A skeptic might ask - why do you seek to show that Jesus was human by describing a bunch of ways in which he was different from any human ever known? Are you appealing to some sort of neo-Platonism here?

A good question. Christian theology would say that we learn (for the first time) what it means to be human by looking at Jesus. The apostle Paul calls him the second Adam (or the second man). Adam, before he sinned, was perfectly human -- as he was meant to be. Every human since the fall is a fallen human, a broken human. A human, yes, but not one that functions properly. Jesus is the second fully functioning human that's ever existed and the first one to remain functioning. By looking at his life we learn what it means to be a fully functioning human.

But to more directly address your concern there are a number of ways to describe Jesus' humanity in positive terms. He was born. He has a human body. He experiences all the desires and temptations we experience. He experiences all the pains that are particular to human persons. He has held a number of different jobs (carpenter, King of the universe). He has a mother, father, brothers and sisters. He is a man.

 

[brightlights]

Personally, I am giving brightlights the benefit of the doubt that he doesn´t want to present his students skeptical/critical question just so he can answer them by simply saying "You are mistaken."

Our purposes here with our students is not to answer these questions but to introduce them to the journey of wrestling with their faith. The questions are more important than the answers here.

 

[brightlights]

I'll give it a shot:

How do you prove the Bible is inspired, inerrant etc without saying "because it says it is"?

This is a good question. We will be asking a question similar to this but we wanted to give it more teeth. Something like:

If the Bible was written by many different people from many different cultures and has been passed down and translated over time, how can we believe that it is inerrant?

and

Since the Bible was written by men, what makes you think it’s God’s word?

 

[dysert]

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']W[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']E BELIEVE...[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']th[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']at the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inspired by God and inerrant in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']How do you know that we have all the right books, and that the books we have are the only right books?[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']What does “inspired” mean? Could others become inspired today and add to the Bible?[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']What about the mistakes and contradictions in the Bible?[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Other religions have their own holy books. What makes the Bible any more credible than them?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].in one God, the Creator, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']that Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary and that He was and remains true God and true man.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Does this mean the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary? Or did Mary’s cells have nothing to do with Jesus and that she was just His host?[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']h[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']a[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t God created Adam and Eve in the divine image; that they sinned, and thereby incurred not only physical death but also spiritual death, which is separation from God; and that, as a result of Adam’s sin, all human beings are now born with a sinful nature and stand guilty before God.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']How is it fair that I’m tarred with a sinful nature because of something someone else did? Isn’t God fair?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']h[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']a[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; and that all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Why did He have to die? What does it mean to “believe in Him”? Could someone else have done it? An angel maybe?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']i[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']n[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']th[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']e resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord, in His ascension into heaven, and in His present life there for us, as High Priest and Advocate.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].in the blessed hope of the personal and imminent return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']How imminent is “imminent”?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']th[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']at all who by faith receive the Lord Jesus Christ are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Is it possible to become un-born-again? To reject being His child?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']h[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']a[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']t the Holy Spirit indwells and gives spiritual life to all believers, enables them to understand biblical truth, empowers them for godly living, and equips them for service and witness.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']If the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, why don’t all believers believe the same biblical truths? And why don’t believers live godly lives?[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']1[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']..[/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'].in the bodily resurrection of the just and unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved, and the everlasting punishment of the lost.[/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Why is it fair that the lost are punished forever when they only sinned for a lifetime?[/FONT]

 

[brightlights]

Dysert, those are some good questions. Thanks for contributing.