Help a Calvinist friend

[Smed]

Hi, I'm a Calvinist working at a Lutheran Church.

I've recently had a confrontation with the pastor about "choice" language when talking about the bible.

What I basically said was that election and predestination are second tier issues. That there is enough ambiguity in the bible for it to be permissible to beleive in a "free will" choice. That we should remain cooperative with organizations that disagree in this issue.

But the pastor drew this line in the sand saying he hated billy graham, and that campus crusade and ministries like it are shrouded in bad doctrine. He was acting like its a heresy or something.

I'm so angry at that he sees this issue as a reason to not support fruitful ministries.

Can anyone help me persuade him ?

 

[BryanW92]

I had a similar discussion once. The pastor said that people like Billy Graham come into town, whip the people up in a frenzy of relgiousness, and then pack up their tent and move on. This leaves the people who "walked down the aisle" hanging high and dry with no Christian support network whatsoever.

What I found out since then is that BGEA spends about a year preparing the ground in each town, actually building a local organization of local churches and pastors and when those people walk down the aisle, they are met by local churches to help them continue their walk after the "show" has left town.

Some would say that it is bad doctrine to think that a person would just suddenly and without any preparation jump up and give their life to the Lord. But, I think that the fact they are there, even then they had to be dragged by a friend or family member, is some evidence that they have the pilot light lit and they are looking. Sometimes, the non-Christian wants to be dragged to church or to a BG crusade because they need to be able to tell themselves that "I'm not going because I need it."

 

[Maid Marie]

Some would say that it is bad doctrine to think that a person would just suddenly and without any preparation jump up and give their life to the Lord. But, I think that the fact they are there, even then they had to be dragged by a friend or family member, is some evidence that they have the pilot light lit and they are looking. Sometimes, the non-Christian wants to be dragged to church or to a BG crusade because they need to be able to tell themselves that "I'm not going because I need it."

We would call that Prevenient Grace - the grace that is working in a person long before they go to a Billy Graham meeting.

Don't know what a Lutheran would call it if they even have a name for this.

 

[circuitrider]

I have a lot of respect for Billy Graham's work. But I could see how your pastor might feel that the "Crusade" and instant Christianity model has some real issues.

As said above, some people really do meet the Lord that way. And as Brian has said the BGEA does much more now to try to connect people with churches than they once did.

But since Billy is a Baptist, there is an underlying Baptist theology taught in his crusades. The theology is that you are "saved" in a moment and that your salvation then is a finished done deal. From then you can never leave the faith and you are a Christian no matter what you ever say or do after. It makes being a Christian an event.

Wesleyan/Methodist Christians believe that Christianity is a life journey that might start with an event (or not) but that one event isn't the be all and end all of your faith.

Lastly, they really need to drop the word "crusade." The Crusades were one of the worst part of Christian history where supposed Christians committed atrocities in the name of Christ. Nearly any word word be better.

 

[BryanW92]

Lastly, they really need to drop the word "crusade." The Crusades were one of the worst part of Christian history where supposed Christians committed atrocities in the name of Christ. Nearly any word word be better.

They already did. Franklin does Festivals. Will does Celebrations.

 

[circuitrider]

As I think about the situation more, your pastor just may be trying to avoid the whole problem of having to teach people to understand Lutheran theology after someone has already started them off with Baptist theology that is largely at the heart of Billy Graham's work.

As an example, I discourage the use of Beth Moore material when I can because the theology is so opposite of Methodism. Beth is a good teacher and her video series are well done. But the theology contradicts the teaching of our Church.

A pastor can find her/himself spending a lot of time un-teaching theologies snuck into their church by persons who attended outside evangelistic events, used material from another denominational source, etc.

 

[circuitrider]

They already did. Franklin does Festivals. Will does Celebrations.

I'm glad to hear that. Although I've stopped being a fan of Franklin. He has become quite publicly divisive in recent years.

 

[BryanW92]

I'm glad to hear that. Although I've stopped being a fan of Franklin. He has become quite publicly divisive in recent years.

I can see why you would stop being a fan of Franklin. No Christian should come to divide. Jesus didn't come to cause division.

 

[Qyöt27]

I can't really speak on the Billy Graham portion, but from what I've heard about CRU (what Campus Crusade for Christ apparently call themselves now), they have a reputation for alienating people - even other Christians - with their focus on zealotry and emotionalism, and being prone to practically devolving into a personality cult around their organizing pastor (that last one I actually read here on CF from someone who saw it happen first-hand). I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Lutherans from the Missouri or Wisconsin Synods took issue with that group too.

 

[circuitrider]

The experience of my college aged daughter is on her campus that Campus Crusade is for the "in Christians" and the "beautiful people."

But then also on her campus is a church that runs around telling everyone that if they've not been baptized by immersion as a "believer" than they are hell bound.

They attract people with a snazzy contemporary worship service and then (nearly) brain wash them with far right wing independent baptist doctrine without ever telling the kids they are independent baptists since the church has a generic name.

Honestly, many mainline Christians have had the experience of being told by evangelicals that we aren't "real Christians" for one reason or another. So it makes you pretty gun shy about people from your church going to one of their events.

A very conservative church that would never advertise an event from my church is always trying to get me to put up flyers for their church events.

Your pastor may just be in the "once burned, twice shy" category.