HELLUCINATIONS

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Nowhere in scripture does it state that Christ's Second Coming is in two phases. Pretrib believers have to split them into two phases for their doctrine to work. Those that believe Christ returns only one more time don't have to do that. We simply let the scriptures speak for themselves. And when we do, we see he returns only one more time.

He comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. Those who are alive at that time will be caught up together with the others as we "meet Christ" in the air, breathable air. Not air as in sky. Different Greek word altogether. Our bodies will be changed in an instant.

He left on the Mount of Olives and he will return there yes.

Julie, that is not in Scripture. Acts 1:11 is "the way" Jesus ascended, not "where from." He ascended in the view of believers, only. His next return must be in the view of believers, only. The 2A (2nd Advent) fails that test in Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. Therefore, the 2A will not be Jesus' next return. His next return is for Rev 4:1, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[JulieB67]

. His next return must be in the view of believers, only

Not scriptural.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Why are you bringing up this dictionary. When we go with the word in the Greek we see it's the very same word as you know that Christ said in his prayer. He proved that people cannot be removed from the earth but still could be "kept" from evil.


You're really reaching there. No scripture states that.

Keep -tereo -
hold fast, keep
From teros (a watch; perhaps akin to theoreo); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;

Again, it does not mean removed from the earth. Christ proves that himself.


That would be impossible seeing how there aren't any.


These verses prove nothing. in Revelation 11 after the two witnesses resurrect, the remnant will give glory because they know their time/redemption has arrived. They are also dwelling on the earth and are most certainly not evil. They can lift up their heads and know it's near. These are the ones that remain and are alive when Christ returns as Paul states.

We see in verse 15, the seventh which is the last trump sounds and that's it. The kingdoms on earth will become Christ's kingdoms.


There will be believers during the tribulation -their names are already written in the book of life. They
will not worship Satan/Antichrist/thebeast.

Christ even tells us that some will be thrown into prison by the devil. They will have tribulation 10 days but if they are faithful until the end they will receive a crown. Meaning they did not cave. That letter is to a Christian church. They are believers.







Already explained about the word "keep" and you once again are glossing over the other letters to the churches.


Only that's not what the scripture states.

John is on the Spirit on the Lord's Day and told to write about the past, present and future. Nothing to do with a pretrib rapture of the church.

Julie, I am quoting verses in English, not Greek. Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 that He will KEEP US FROM the Trib. We are raptured straight to Heaven in Rev 4:1, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

You cannot show me one verse where believers have entered the Trib. All the "saints" in the Trib are new converts.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Not scriptural.

1 Th 4:17 only has believers raptured. They are the resurrected dead in Christ (1 Th 4:16) and we, on Earth, who are believers (1 Th 4:17). We are raptured, where we first pass through heavenly clouds. We then will meet Jesus in the air. Jesus will descend to us believers, only. That fulfills Acts 1:11. That is why the pre-Trib rapture is the centerpiece of Jesus' next return. He is unseen by the world below, the whole time.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nowhere in scripture does it state that Christ's Second Coming is in two phases. Pretrib believers have to split them into two phases for their doctrine to work.

And how do believers make "Trinity" work?

Let me show you how this works, using your own words:

"Nowhere in scripture does it state that the Godhead is three persons in one. Trinity believers have to merge Them into one Being for their doctrine to work."

See how silly that sounds?

 

[David Lamb]

None of this is OT:

Jesus spoke with Mary Magdalene at the tomb of His resurrection. He told her He was going to Heaven. That was a clear ascension to Heaven after His resurrection and after His short talk with Mary Magdalene (John 20:11-17).

John 20:19 (NIV): On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

That was Jesus after returning from Heaven, in the midst of His 40 days on Earth, after His resurrection. He was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. Jesus thereby returned to Earth.

Acts 1:9-11 (NIV): After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus returned to Heaven in Acts 1:9-10. That was another ascension after the OT.

There you have an ascension after His resurrection; His return to Earth for 40 days; and another ascension to Heaven in Acts 1:9-11. All those occurred after the OT.

The 2A (2nd Advent) will occur in view of the entire world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7).

Acts 1:11 (NIV): “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

When Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9-10, the way He ascended was in the view of believers, only. Acts:1:11 says ... Jesus ... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into Heaven.

Jesus must next return in the view of believers, only. That is coincidentally what He will do in 1 Th 4:17. We ascend through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Heavenly clouds keep the world below from being able to see us and Jesus. Jesus thereby have fulfilled Acts 1:11, having returned in the view of believers, only. That is the only verse where He will come back in that way. In no way does that occur in the 2A. Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7 make sure of that. Therefore, there is a return prior to the 2A. In fact, it will occur about seven years beforehand (before Daniel's 70th week, in Daniel 9:27).

Also, this can't be about the NHNE. The NHNE is brought to us. Rev 21:2 (NIV): I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

In 1 Th 4:17, we are taken to Heaven. In John 14:3, we are taken to Heaven. That is made obvious by John 14:3 (NKJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Where is Jesus now?

John 20:17 certainly talks of the ascension:

“Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.’"” (Joh 20:17 NKJV)

Did Jesus mean that He was ascending as Mary was watching Him? Acts 1:9-10 is speaking about the one ascension, the one the disciples witnessed. It is in the context of Acts 1:1-3:

“1 ¶ The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” (Ac 1:1-3 NKJV)

I wonder if anybody else here believes as you do - I have certainly never met anybody who believes in multiple ascensions before.

 

[JulieB67]

All the "saints" in the Trib are new converts.

This is not scriptural. There is not one verse that states the saints in Revelation are new converts. There is no distinction between the saints of Revelation and any other saint.


Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

You cannot show me one verse where believers have entered the Trib.

All of the gospels if you want to read them again. Christ does not teach a pretrib rapture, quite the opposite. And he states "watch so one's house doesn't get broken up. Watch so that day doesn't catch you unaware and so on. As does Paul. They both give out very strict warnings about deception. Which would be pointless if the believers were not to be here at this time. Him and Paul aren't writing to unbelievers and giving them warnings. They're giving them to believers that's the entire point. So one can know the signs they lay out, etc. So that one can watch for those signs and endure, stand before Christ. We don't want to be one of the Foolish Virgins who are believers. Non believers are not waiting for the Bridegroom. And we don't want to be one of the ones that Christ states -depart from me. It's that serious. You have to let go of this pretrib false doctrine and accept the love of the truth.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelation 13:9 "If any man have an ear, let him hear."

Revelation 13:10 "He that leadeth into [if any man is captivity [he] shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

This is not symbolic, this is the very real devil, the very real Satan when him and his angels are here playing savior. And this is being said to a church of believers.

Another one -

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

It doesn't say "every day" it states "the evil day" and what are we do to as I stated before -stand, having done all, to stand.

is "the way" Jesus ascended, not "where from."

Yes, it is the way, but it has nothing to do with believers. He left on the Mount of Olives and he will return there. There's nothing there that suggests it's the believers. But we have scripture about Mount of Olives. There is not one scripture in the entire bible that states he will return and only the believers will see him. Not one. We do have the scripture that he returns with clouds which lines up with 1st Thes 4 and that every eye shall see him. We can't veer off on our own.

, I am quoting verses in English, not Greek

Not sure why, when we know different words get lost in the translation. We have the Greek word from the manuscript. The same Greek word Christ uses.

You act as if God is powerless to keep you from evil when Christ states that in his prayer. We were never promised we would not go through tribulation. And God's wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation is falling away to Satan and his gang when they are here playing savior. They're so good with the miracles and wonders that if it were possible even the elect could be deceived. That's why Christ states if they say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not. This is being spoken to Christians. Meaning they will be here. That's what the warnings are for, the deception and trickery/wiles of the devil. A Christian should have the full gospel armor on and in place in case they are there.

Jesus will descend to us believers, only.

Again, not scriptural

where we first pass through heavenly clouds.

And not scriptural. We can't just twist scripture.


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are caught up together with them in the clouds. We are caught up together with those that are with him to meet the Lord in the air. We know from 1st Cor all are changed in this moment. It does not state anyone is going to heaven. Christ is returning here. That's what the "coming of the Lord" means. It does not mean leaving, it means coming. As soon as that last trump/seventh sounds, these kingdoms will be his.

"Nowhere in scripture does it state that the Godhead is three persons in one. Trinity believers have to merge Them into one Being for their doctrine to work."

Yes, but you're really reaching if you're using that as an argument. Christ states if you've seen me, you've seen the Father and that he would not leave us comfortless.

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

How about breaking down your entire chart with scripture as I did? Not just list the scripture, post the scripture to see if the point is properly made.

 

[Der Alte]

Rapture is not in the Bible. It's been adopted as a synonym for harpazo. Rev 4:1 is when the Church is snatched up to Heaven.

Yes and no. The English word "rapture" does not occur in the English translation or the original Greek but when the Bible was translated into Latin harpazo was translated as raptu.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is not scriptural. There is not one verse that states the saints in Revelation are new converts. There is no distinction between the saints of Revelation and any other saint.


Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."



All of the gospels if you want to read them again. Christ does not teach a pretrib rapture, quite the opposite. And he states "watch so one's house doesn't get broken up. Watch so that day doesn't catch you unaware and so on. As does Paul. They both give out very strict warnings about deception. Which would be pointless if the believers were not to be here at this time. Him and Paul aren't writing to unbelievers and giving them warnings. They're giving them to believers that's the entire point. So one can know the signs they lay out, etc. So that one can watch for those signs and endure, stand before Christ. We don't want to be one of the Foolish Virgins who are believers. Non believers are not waiting for the Bridegroom. And we don't want to be one of the ones that Christ states -depart from me. It's that serious. You have to let go of this pretrib false doctrine and accept the love of the truth.

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelation 13:9 "If any man have an ear, let him hear."

Revelation 13:10 "He that leadeth into [if any man is captivity [he] shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

This is not symbolic, this is the very real devil, the very real Satan when him and his angels are here playing savior. And this is being said to a church of believers.

Another one -

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

It doesn't say "every day" it states "the evil day" and what are we do to as I stated before -stand, having done all, to stand.





Yes, it is the way, but it has nothing to do with believers. He left on the Mount of Olives and he will return there. There's nothing there that suggests it's the believers. But we have scripture about Mount of Olives. There is not one scripture in the entire bible that states he will return and only the believers will see him. Not one. We do have the scripture that he returns with clouds which lines up with 1st Thes 4 and that every eye shall see him. We can't veer off on our own.




Not sure why, when we know different words get lost in the translation. We have the Greek word from the manuscript. The same Greek word Christ uses.

You act as if God is powerless to keep you from evil when Christ states that in his prayer. We were never promised we would not go through tribulation. And God's wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation is falling away to Satan and his gang when they are here playing savior. They're so good with the miracles and wonders that if it were possible even the elect could be deceived. That's why Christ states if they say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not. This is being spoken to Christians. Meaning they will be here. That's what the warnings are for, the deception and trickery/wiles of the devil. A Christian should have the full gospel armor on and in place in case they are there.



Again, not scriptural


And not scriptural. We can't just twist scripture.


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are caught up together with them in the clouds. We are caught up together with those that are with him to meet the Lord in the air. We know from 1st Cor all are changed in this moment. It does not state anyone is going to heaven. Christ is returning here. That's what the "coming of the Lord" means. It does not mean leaving, it means coming. As soon as that last trump/seventh sounds, these kingdoms will be his.


Yes, but you're really reaching if you're using that as an argument. Christ states if you've seen me, you've seen the Father and that he would not leave us comfortless.

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

How about breaking down your entire chart with scripture as I did? Not just list the scripture, post the scripture to see if the point is properly made.

There are verses that prove only unbelievers enter the Trib. Your attempt to discredit that statement is based on verses that cite the "saints" in the Trib.

Rev 6:15-17 is proof that only unbelievers are on Earth, except for the 144k. In Rev 6:15–17, everyone (the keyword used in verse 15) in the whole world gathers (Rev 6:15). An alleged sighting of Jesus occurs, and everyone runs in terror to hide from Jesus. All who are gathered call on the mountains and rocks to, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him …” (Rev 6:16). Julie, that is the complete opposite of how believers would react in the same situation. First, we would not be in terror. Next, we would be overjoyed and we would immediately run to Jesus to thank Him and worship Him! Therefore, let the evidence show that everyone on Earth as of Rev 6:15-17 is proven to be a certified unbeliever.

Rev 9:4 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. ----- Who would be the only folks on Earth at that time with the seal of God on their foreheads? The 144k (Rev 7:3-4). So, only the 144k and all those (still unconverted) unbelievers are on Earth.

Let's look at Dan 7:21 (ESV): As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,

Let's then look at Rev 13:7 (ESV): Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

Also, related to the same saints: Rev 12:17 (ESV): Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

All the martyrs in the Trib become the GM ("great multitude") in Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.

Also in Rev 7:14 (NLT): ... “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

Rev 6:11 says there will be two groups that will make up the GM: Verse 11: Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

The first group of the GM are the martyrs from the 2nd and 4th seals. They show up under the altar in Rev 6:9-10. The second group is found in Rev 20:4. What you will find is all martyrs will be killed for at least one reason: their testimony of Jesus Christ. That is the result of the ministry of the 144k. You will find that attribute in Rev 6:9 (NIV): ... who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

In Rev 20:4 (NIV): ... who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.

The "saints" in Rev 12:17 are who end up in Rev 20:4. They are all martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ. They all become the GM. They are the result of the very hard work by the "144k" (Rev 7:3-4) and the "2W" (Two Witnesses) in Rev 11:3.

There are billions of unbelievers who will enter the Trib. The "great multitude" will be millions of new converts in the Trib. They will all be martyred for at least one reason: their testimony about Jesus. They will enter the Trib as unbelievers. They will see the light of salvation and be converted by the very hard work of the 144k and the 2W. It is only these new converts who'll be the "saints" in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Nowhere in scripture does it state that Christ's Second Coming is in two phases. Pretrib believers have to split them into two phases for their doctrine to work. Those that believe Christ returns only one more time don't have to do that. We simply let the scriptures speak for themselves. And when we do, we see he returns only one more time.

He comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. Those who are alive at that time will be caught up together with the others as we "meet Christ" in the air, breathable air. Not air as in sky. Different Greek word altogether. Our bodies will be changed in an instant.

He left on the Mount of Olives and he will return there yes.

Julie, Jesus never leaves Heaven in the rapture. His descent in Rev 4:1 is not even mentioned. That's because it's so minimal. Jesus apparently descends from His elevated throne. John 14:3 also supports a very minimal descent. In 1 Th 4:17, we go to Him. In John 14:3, we go to Him. In 2 Th 2:1, we are gathered to Him. That's the mark of a rapture verse. Matt 24:31, 40-41 don't "gather to Him" because they aren't rapture verses. They are gathering verses, most likely for Matt 25:31-40. The pre-Trib rapture has nothing to do with the 2A. Jesus is hidden behind heavenly clouds the whole time of the rapture. In the 2A, He is seen by the whole world, on clouds. Please honor that distinction. Thank you. God bless!

 

[JulieB67]

There are verses that prove only unbelievers enter the Trib.

There are no verses, especially- Rev 3:10. We are all dwelling on the earth at this moment. And we know what the meaning of "keep" is in the Greek. So that proves nothing.

All who are gathered call on the mountains and rocks to, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him …” (Rev 6:16). Julie, that is the complete opposite of how believers would react in the same situation.

Many will be in terror, especially the ones that have fallen away into apostasy believing they were really worshipping the Savior as evidenced by the Foolish Virgins and the ones that Christ tells to depart.

But at the same time, the remnant will give glory to God.


Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Again, the remnant are those that remain and are alive when Christ returns.

An alleged sighting of Jesus

It won't be alleged, all eyes will see Christ when he returns.

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

No hint of a pretrib rapture even in the first chapter. That should be a wake up call for anyone that believes in this doctrine. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future. Chapter 4:10 is talking to John, not the church at that moment. And as I stated all through the many church letters it's evidenced that believers will be there. The devil will throw some into prison. That is not an illusion. That is real. It coincides with Revelation 12. That is how a believer overcomes Satan -with the full gospel armor on. To fight the Satan and his trickery. Paul is not talking to unbelievers.

The seals are knowledge about what is to happen. It goes through the entire sequence of events. For example

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Same event. Unless you believe somehow all of the mountains and islands are just going to magically be put back together so they can be moved again.

The last seal-Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Taught to believers because it's going to happen to one generation.


The 144,000 of all the tribes (not just Jews btw) are of the elect yes, with a special purpose but that still doesn't prove the saints in Revelation are not believers. The saints have to have that gospel armor on and in place. Christ states to one church "fear none of the things that shall suffer"

This is a letter to a Christian church/believers. All of the churches are believers. And only two Christ did not find fault with. He states repent to the others and tells one to not fear and other that they will be kept (guarded over). It does not state anywhere that believers will be removed from the earth. Not one verse. Do you think Christ and Paul are just warning believers about deception in that time for no reason? Their warnings are serious. They are preparing that one generation.

You can keep clinging to the word "keep" but again that does not mean removed from the earth. All throughout Christ talks about having patience. Which coincides with his teachings about endurance and Paul's teachings on being able to stand in that "evil day". They are preparing anyone that is alive at that time. And warning everyone against deception. I feel bad for Paul because he was trying to comfort the Thessalonians about their loved ones and so he states they will be included when Christ returns. That's why it's worded differently than the gospels. But sadly people have taken his words to mean that Christ is returning before the tribulation. And that's not what he taught (2nd Thes) and it's certainly not what Christ taught. I've tried. As I said, I've been where you are at right now but it's not biblical. We shouldn't have to twist scriptures to suit our beliefs.

Jesus never leaves Heaven in the rapture.

He certainly descends from heaven when he returns but apparently you've heard this verse too many times and it completely pulls apart the pretrib rapture when it concerns 1st Thes 4:16

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

That's because it's so minimal. Jesus apparently descends from His elevated throne.

False, he descends from Heaven when he returns. And since you know the Heaven must receive him until the restitution of all things you have to believe it's minimal and only believe he descends from his throne. Where are you getting this?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He not only descends from heaven, but it's with a shout, telling this is not in secret, it's not minimal.

Also how can it be minimal if are told this verse?

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming."

Again, no hint of a pretrib rapture. Only telling believers to continue to abide in Him, that when he does appear one doesn't have to be ashamed at His coming. That is not minimal and coincides with all the teachings again about endurance, standing, etc. And once again, it's a coming, not a pretrib rapture.

And he's bringing the ones that have passed away with him. So how is that possible if he doesn't leave Heaven?

The pre-Trib rapture has nothing to do with the 2A.

They are the very same event and no one has proved otherwise. The coming of the Lord is just that, the coming of the Lord.

. In 2 Th 2:1, we are gathered to Him. That's the mark of a rapture verse. Matt 24:31, 40-41 don't "gather to Him" because they aren't rapture verses.

You do realize that no two authors write exactly the same? But the gathering is the same, the event is the same.

Jesus is hidden behind heavenly clouds the whole time of the rapture.

He descends heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. There's not one verse that states he's hidden. We can't just make up stuff. We only have one scripture that talks about who sees him. And that's the one that states every eye will see him. Why doesn't it state that only believers will see him in the verses you are talking about and yet the clear message about all eyes will see him when he comes with clouds is there?

Again, what you are stating is not scriptural.

Well, we've went around again but we are still firmly in our beliefs apparently. I don't think that's going to change.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There are no verses, especially- Rev 3:10. We are all dwelling on the earth at this moment. And we know what the meaning of "keep" is in the Greek. So that proves nothing.


Many will be in terror, especially the ones that have fallen away into apostasy believing they were really worshipping the Savior as evidenced by the Foolish Virgins and the ones that Christ tells to depart.

But at the same time, the remnant will give glory to God.


Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Again, the remnant are those that remain and are alive when Christ returns.




It won't be alleged, all eyes will see Christ when he returns.

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

No hint of a pretrib rapture even in the first chapter. That should be a wake up call for anyone that believes in this doctrine. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future. Chapter 4:10 is talking to John, not the church at that moment. And as I stated all through the many church letters it's evidenced that believers will be there. The devil will throw some into prison. That is not an illusion. That is real. It coincides with Revelation 12. That is how a believer overcomes Satan -with the full gospel armor on. To fight the Satan and his trickery. Paul is not talking to unbelievers.

The seals are knowledge about what is to happen. It goes through the entire sequence of events. For example

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Same event. Unless you believe somehow all of the mountains and islands are just going to magically be put back together so they can be moved again.

The last seal-Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Taught to believers because it's going to happen to one generation.


The 144,000 of all the tribes (not just Jews btw) are of the elect yes, with a special purpose but that still doesn't prove the saints in Revelation are not believers. The saints have to have that gospel armor on and in place. Christ states to one church "fear none of the things that shall suffer"

This is a letter to a Christian church/believers. All of the churches are believers. And only two Christ did not find fault with. He states repent to the others and tells one to not fear and other that they will be kept (guarded over). It does not state anywhere that believers will be removed from the earth. Not one verse. Do you think Christ and Paul are just warning believers about deception in that time for no reason? Their warnings are serious. They are preparing that one generation.

You can keep clinging to the word "keep" but again that does not mean removed from the earth. All throughout Christ talks about having patience. Which coincides with his teachings about endurance and Paul's teachings on being able to stand in that "evil day". They are preparing anyone that is alive at that time. And warning everyone against deception. I feel bad for Paul because he was trying to comfort the Thessalonians about their loved ones and so he states they will be included when Christ returns. That's why it's worded differently than the gospels. But sadly people have taken his words to mean that Christ is returning before the tribulation. And that's not what he taught (2nd Thes) and it's certainly not what Christ taught. I've tried. As I said, I've been where you are at right now but it's not biblical. We shouldn't have to twist scriptures to suit our beliefs.


He certainly descends from heaven when he returns but apparently you've heard this verse too many times and it completely pulls apart the pretrib rapture when it concerns 1st Thes 4:16

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."



False, he descends from Heaven when he returns. And since you know the Heaven must receive him until the restitution of all things you have to believe it's minimal and only believe he descends from his throne. Where are you getting this?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He not only descends from heaven, but it's with a shout, telling this is not in secret, it's not minimal.

Also how can it be minimal if are told this verse?

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming."

Again, no hint of a pretrib rapture. Only telling believers to continue to abide in Him, that when he does appear one doesn't have to be ashamed at His coming. That is not minimal and coincides with all the teachings again about endurance, standing, etc. And once again, it's a coming, not a pretrib rapture.

And he's bringing the ones that have passed away with him. So how is that possible if he doesn't leave Heaven?



They are the very same event and no one has proved otherwise. The coming of the Lord is just that, the coming of the Lord.


You do realize that no two authors write exactly the same? But the gathering is the same, the event is the same.


He descends heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. There's not one verse that states he's hidden. We can't just make up stuff. We only have one scripture that talks about who sees him. And that's the one that states every eye will see him. Why doesn't it state that only believers will see him in the verses you are talking about and yet the clear message about all eyes will see him when he comes with clouds is there?

Again, what you are stating is not scriptural.

Well, we've went around again but we are still firmly in our beliefs apparently. I don't think that's going to change.

Julie, Acts 1:11 is not about location. "The way" is only about the circumstances under which Jesus ascended. He ascended in the view of believers, only, which were His disciples. Per verse 11, He must next return in the view of believers, only. That is and can only be about a pre-Trib rapture because the opportunity to descend into the view of believers, only, does not exist once the Trib starts.

The 2A does not fit the criteria of Acts 1:11. Jesus is immediately seen by the whole world of unbelievers (Rev 1:7), upon Matt 24:30.

I do not focus on the word "keep." The wording is a phrase, "keep from." We are kept FROM the Trib, per Jesus' promise in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In verse 10, Jesus addresses two different groups. Jesus promised to believers ("you"), that we will not enter the Trib. "Those" are unbelievers who will enter the Trib and be tried by 21 judgments of God's wrath.

Proof that no believers enter the Trib begins in Rev 6:4 (ESV): And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. ----- Julie, there is no way God would have believers violate the 6th commandment by having us wantonly kill each other. That is what that verse is about. We are not there in Rev 6:4.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There are no verses, especially- Rev 3:10. We are all dwelling on the earth at this moment. And we know what the meaning of "keep" is in the Greek. So that proves nothing.


Many will be in terror, especially the ones that have fallen away into apostasy believing they were really worshipping the Savior as evidenced by the Foolish Virgins and the ones that Christ tells to depart.

But at the same time, the remnant will give glory to God.


Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Again, the remnant are those that remain and are alive when Christ returns.




It won't be alleged, all eyes will see Christ when he returns.

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men."

No hint of a pretrib rapture even in the first chapter. That should be a wake up call for anyone that believes in this doctrine. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future. Chapter 4:10 is talking to John, not the church at that moment. And as I stated all through the many church letters it's evidenced that believers will be there. The devil will throw some into prison. That is not an illusion. That is real. It coincides with Revelation 12. That is how a believer overcomes Satan -with the full gospel armor on. To fight the Satan and his trickery. Paul is not talking to unbelievers.

The seals are knowledge about what is to happen. It goes through the entire sequence of events. For example

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Same event. Unless you believe somehow all of the mountains and islands are just going to magically be put back together so they can be moved again.

The last seal-Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"


Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Taught to believers because it's going to happen to one generation.


The 144,000 of all the tribes (not just Jews btw) are of the elect yes, with a special purpose but that still doesn't prove the saints in Revelation are not believers. The saints have to have that gospel armor on and in place. Christ states to one church "fear none of the things that shall suffer"

This is a letter to a Christian church/believers. All of the churches are believers. And only two Christ did not find fault with. He states repent to the others and tells one to not fear and other that they will be kept (guarded over). It does not state anywhere that believers will be removed from the earth. Not one verse. Do you think Christ and Paul are just warning believers about deception in that time for no reason? Their warnings are serious. They are preparing that one generation.

You can keep clinging to the word "keep" but again that does not mean removed from the earth. All throughout Christ talks about having patience. Which coincides with his teachings about endurance and Paul's teachings on being able to stand in that "evil day". They are preparing anyone that is alive at that time. And warning everyone against deception. I feel bad for Paul because he was trying to comfort the Thessalonians about their loved ones and so he states they will be included when Christ returns. That's why it's worded differently than the gospels. But sadly people have taken his words to mean that Christ is returning before the tribulation. And that's not what he taught (2nd Thes) and it's certainly not what Christ taught. I've tried. As I said, I've been where you are at right now but it's not biblical. We shouldn't have to twist scriptures to suit our beliefs.


He certainly descends from heaven when he returns but apparently you've heard this verse too many times and it completely pulls apart the pretrib rapture when it concerns 1st Thes 4:16

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."



False, he descends from Heaven when he returns. And since you know the Heaven must receive him until the restitution of all things you have to believe it's minimal and only believe he descends from his throne. Where are you getting this?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He not only descends from heaven, but it's with a shout, telling this is not in secret, it's not minimal.

Also how can it be minimal if are told this verse?

I John 2:28 "And now little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming."

Again, no hint of a pretrib rapture. Only telling believers to continue to abide in Him, that when he does appear one doesn't have to be ashamed at His coming. That is not minimal and coincides with all the teachings again about endurance, standing, etc. And once again, it's a coming, not a pretrib rapture.

And he's bringing the ones that have passed away with him. So how is that possible if he doesn't leave Heaven?



They are the very same event and no one has proved otherwise. The coming of the Lord is just that, the coming of the Lord.


You do realize that no two authors write exactly the same? But the gathering is the same, the event is the same.


He descends heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God. There's not one verse that states he's hidden. We can't just make up stuff. We only have one scripture that talks about who sees him. And that's the one that states every eye will see him. Why doesn't it state that only believers will see him in the verses you are talking about and yet the clear message about all eyes will see him when he comes with clouds is there?

Again, what you are stating is not scriptural.

Well, we've went around again but we are still firmly in our beliefs apparently. I don't think that's going to change.

The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 2A. Yes, I know they have similar phenomena. They are years apart on the timeline. The 6th seal is only about lunar, solar and geological phenomena to prove God is real and is all-powerful. It is meant to persuade those who can be saved, to repent and accept Jesus as their Savior. There are are only unbelievers on Earth in the 6th seal. EVERYONE on Earth is proven by Rev 6:15, to be present and terrified of an alleged sighting of Jesus. That is as opposite to Christian behavior as it can get. Therefore, all those folks are unequivocally certified as unbelievers.

You also have the Greek wrong about Rev 3:10. Jesus' words make it clear that the Church will not go through the hour of trial, a reference to the Trib. The Greek word translated "from" is ek, meaning "out of." Unlike other forms of hardship, where God promises to be with us, or to keep us "through" or "in" those times of difficulty, the Church will be kept out of the Trib. If the Church were destined to be kept through the Trib, the Greek word dia, meaning "through," could have been used.

 

[JulieB67]

The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 2A. Yes, I know they have similar phenomena. They are years apart on the timeline. The 6th seal is only about lunar, solar and geological phenomena to prove God is real and is all-powerful. It is meant to persuade those who can be saved, to repent and accept Jesus as their Savior. There are are only unbelievers on Earth in the 6th seal. EVERYONE on Earth is proven by Rev 6:15, to be present and terrified of an alleged sighting of Jesus. That is as opposite to Christian behavior as it can get. Therefore, all those folks are unequivocally certified as unbelievers.

You also have the Greek wrong about Rev 3:10. Jesus' words make it clear that the Church will not go through the hour of trial, a reference to the Trib. The Greek word translated "from" is ek, meaning "out of." Unlike other forms of hardship, where God promises to be with us, or to keep us "through" or "in" those times of difficulty, the Church will be kept out of the Trib. If the Church were destined to be kept through the Trib, the Greek word dia, meaning "through," could have been used.

Jeffrey, seals are not actions in themselves. They are only showing the events that play out. They are the the knowledge that someone must be sealed with. That's what a seal is. It means to stamp someone, etc, to put a seal on.
seal
From sphragis; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest -- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.


But I'm finished going around and around. I've seen nothing in your posts that proves to me your doctrine and vice versa it seems. I thought maybe I'd try again because I asked you a question months ago on another board -When you see the words "the coming of the Lord", does that mean the Second Coming or the pretrib rapture to you and you very clearly stated, "the Second Coming" And then I posted this verse-

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

And then you changed your mind and stated it can mean either. Which you must realize makes no sense. The coming of the Lord can only be used to describe the Second Coming. You answered right the first time.

No offense but the fact that you changed your mind means you're all over the place. If someone makes a valid point you change, move onto something else, etc.

I was raised up with the pretrib rapture and it only took me one time when I first read the Bible in it's entirety to see the truth. I didn't have to change course as you often do, I just let go of something that I was indoctrinated with and went in with prayer and an open mind and let the scriptures speak for themselves-only wanting the truth. There would be no reason for me to drop this 30 something year belief on my part if I thought it was biblical/scriptural.

But I saw very easily that there was only one "coming of the Lord". It's not plural. All eyes will see him. That's a fact. There are no scriptures that state he's completely hidden as you claim. And in Acts, there's nothing there about the same way he returns being only to believers. That's just your opinion. It's just not there. What is there is is that he leaves mount of Olives and returns there. Those are facts. Just because you state no, that's not it doesn't mean you have the scriptures to back that up the claim as to that's what the angel meant. There's nothing in that verse that suggest anything other than he leaves from that spot and will return in the same way to that spot. And we also again have the scripture that states all eyes will see him. That's in the very first chapter of Revelation which should also be a huge wake up call.

I have to deal in scripture, not conjecture which I believe drives your posts.

And in the end I'd rather heed Christ's and Paul's warnings and leave it at that.

Have the last word if you will....

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 6th seal has nothing to do with the 2A. Yes, I know they have similar phenomena. They are years apart on the timeline. The 6th seal is only about lunar, solar and geological phenomena to prove God is real and is all-powerful. It is meant to persuade those who can be saved, to repent and accept Jesus as their Savior. There are are only unbelievers on Earth in the 6th seal. EVERYONE on Earth is proven by Rev 6:15, to be present and terrified of an alleged sighting of Jesus. That is as opposite to Christian behavior as it can get. Therefore, all those folks are unequivocally certified as unbelievers.

You also have the Greek wrong about Rev 3:10. Jesus' words make it clear that the Church will not go through the hour of trial, a reference to the Trib. The Greek word translated "from" is ek, meaning "out of." Unlike other forms of hardship, where God promises to be with us, or to keep us "through" or "in" those times of difficulty, the Church will be kept out of the Trib. If the Church were destined to be kept through the Trib, the Greek word dia, meaning "through," could have been used.

Jeffrey, seals are not actions in themselves. They are only showing the events that play out. They are the the knowledge that someone must be sealed with. That's what a seal is. It means to stamp someone, etc, to put a seal on.
seal
From sphragis; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest -- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.


But I'm finished going around and around. I've seen nothing in your posts that proves to me your doctrine and vice versa it seems. I thought maybe I'd try again because I asked you a question months ago on another board -When you see the words "the coming of the Lord", does that mean the Second Coming or the pretrib rapture to you and you very clearly stated, "the Second Coming" And then I posted this verse-

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

And then you changed your mind and stated it can mean either. Which you must realize makes no sense. The coming of the Lord can only be used to describe the Second Coming.

No offense but the fact that you changed your mind means you're all over the place. If someone makes a valid point you change, move onto something else, etc.

I was raised up with the pretrib rapture and it only took me one time when I first read the Bible in it's entirety to see the truth. I didn't have to change course as you often do, I just let go of something that I was indoctrinated with and went in with prayer and an open mind and let the scriptures speak for themselves-only wanting the truth. There would be no reason for me to drop this 30 belief on my part if I thought it was biblical/scriptural.

But I saw very easily that there was only one "coming of the Lord". It's not plural. All eyes will see him. That's a fact. There are no scriptures that state he's completely hidden as you claim. And in Acts, there's nothing there about the same way he returns being only to believers. That's just your opinion. It's just not there. What is there is is that he leaves mount of Olives and returns there. Those are facts. Just because you state no, that's not it doesn't mean you have the scriptures to back that up the claim as to that's what the angel meant. There's nothing in that verse that suggest anything other than he leaves from that spot and will return in the same way to that spot. And we also again have the scripture that states all eyes will see him. That's in the very first chapter of Revelation which should also be a huge wake up call.

I have to deal in scripture, not conjecture which I believe drives your posts.

And in the end I'd rather heed Christ's and Paul's warnings and leave it at that.

Have the last word if you will....

Julie, Rev 3:10 seals the deal, based on PROPER Greek, that the Church will be raptured pre-Trib. Acts 1:11 pertains to the next return of Jesus Christ. Based on verse 11, Jesus will return in the view of believers, only. That will only happen through 1 Th 4:17. That is also where heavenly clouds are mentioned. We will not see Jesus until after we pass through those heavenly clouds. That means the world below will not see Jesus, at all. Rev 4:1 is a future event; the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. God bless!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, seals are not actions in themselves. They are only showing the events that play out. They are the the knowledge that someone must be sealed with. That's what a seal is. It means to stamp someone, etc, to put a seal on.
seal
From sphragis; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest -- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.


But I'm finished going around and around. I've seen nothing in your posts that proves to me your doctrine and vice versa it seems. I thought maybe I'd try again because I asked you a question months ago on another board -When you see the words "the coming of the Lord", does that mean the Second Coming or the pretrib rapture to you and you very clearly stated, "the Second Coming" And then I posted this verse-

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

And then you changed your mind and stated it can mean either. Which you must realize makes no sense. The coming of the Lord can only be used to describe the Second Coming. You answered right the first time.

No offense but the fact that you changed your mind means you're all over the place. If someone makes a valid point you change, move onto something else, etc.

I was raised up with the pretrib rapture and it only took me one time when I first read the Bible in it's entirety to see the truth. I didn't have to change course as you often do, I just let go of something that I was indoctrinated with and went in with prayer and an open mind and let the scriptures speak for themselves-only wanting the truth. There would be no reason for me to drop this 30 belief on my part if I thought it was biblical/scriptural.

But I saw very easily that there was only one "coming of the Lord". It's not plural. All eyes will see him. That's a fact. There are no scriptures that state he's completely hidden as you claim. And in Acts, there's nothing there about the same way he returns being only to believers. That's just your opinion. It's just not there. What is there is is that he leaves mount of Olives and returns there. Those are facts. Just because you state no, that's not it doesn't mean you have the scriptures to back that up the claim as to that's what the angel meant. There's nothing in that verse that suggest anything other than he leaves from that spot and will return in the same way to that spot. And we also again have the scripture that states all eyes will see him. That's in the very first chapter of Revelation which should also be a huge wake up call.

I have to deal in scripture, not conjecture which I believe drives your posts.

And in the end I'd rather heed Christ's and Paul's warnings and leave it at that.

Have the last word if you will....

Acts 1:11 has nothing to do with location. It has only to do with the circumstances under which Jesus ascended. He ascended in the view of believers, only, being His disciples.

Two verses, in the context of the Trib, that prove "those who dwell on the earth" are murderous and despicable unbelievers:

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, seals are not actions in themselves. They are only showing the events that play out. They are the the knowledge that someone must be sealed with. That's what a seal is. It means to stamp someone, etc, to put a seal on.
seal
From sphragis; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication, to keep secret, to attest -- (set a, set to) seal up, stop.


But I'm finished going around and around. I've seen nothing in your posts that proves to me your doctrine and vice versa it seems. I thought maybe I'd try again because I asked you a question months ago on another board -When you see the words "the coming of the Lord", does that mean the Second Coming or the pretrib rapture to you and you very clearly stated, "the Second Coming" And then I posted this verse-

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

And then you changed your mind and stated it can mean either. Which you must realize makes no sense. The coming of the Lord can only be used to describe the Second Coming. You answered right the first time.

No offense but the fact that you changed your mind means you're all over the place. If someone makes a valid point you change, move onto something else, etc.

I was raised up with the pretrib rapture and it only took me one time when I first read the Bible in it's entirety to see the truth. I didn't have to change course as you often do, I just let go of something that I was indoctrinated with and went in with prayer and an open mind and let the scriptures speak for themselves-only wanting the truth. There would be no reason for me to drop this 30 belief on my part if I thought it was biblical/scriptural.

But I saw very easily that there was only one "coming of the Lord". It's not plural. All eyes will see him. That's a fact. There are no scriptures that state he's completely hidden as you claim. And in Acts, there's nothing there about the same way he returns being only to believers. That's just your opinion. It's just not there. What is there is is that he leaves mount of Olives and returns there. Those are facts. Just because you state no, that's not it doesn't mean you have the scriptures to back that up the claim as to that's what the angel meant. There's nothing in that verse that suggest anything other than he leaves from that spot and will return in the same way to that spot. And we also again have the scripture that states all eyes will see him. That's in the very first chapter of Revelation which should also be a huge wake up call.

I have to deal in scripture, not conjecture which I believe drives your posts.

And in the end I'd rather heed Christ's and Paul's warnings and leave it at that.

Have the last word if you will....

The greatest evidence that believers do not enter the Trib is Rev 6:15-16. In verse 15, "everyone" on Earth is gathered, and they seek to hide. In verse 16, everyone on Earth is reacting in terror to an alleged sighting of Jesus. All are reacting only as unbelievers would do. If believers were present, we would run to Jesus in complete joy to praise and thank Him! Julie, this is solid proof that no believers are on Earth as of the 6th seal.

Earlier evidence of no believers entering the Trib is in Rev 6:4. The 2nd seal is about simultaneous wars breaking out all over Earth. Wars, in the Trib, are a certified form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT). The behavior of the folks in the 2nd seal includes barbaric killing of each other. God would not require this murderous activity of believers for it would violate the 6th commandment. We believers are not on Earth, as of the 2nd seal.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Julie, Luke 21:34-36 (NIV): “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

First, references to those "who dwell on the face of the whole earth" are, in the context of the Trib, references only to unbelievers. Luke warns in verses 34-35 that we need to watch ourselves that we not behave like unbelievers. For if we do, we can miss the pre-Trib rapture. Verse 36 proves that if we refrain from such behavior. we can "escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Standing before Jesus is what we'll do in 1 Th 4:17. All living believers and the resurrected believers will be raptured straight to Heaven.

You cannot invalidate the pre-Trib rapture. Jesus promised it in Rev 3:10 with His words, "I will keep you FROM the hour of trial." That's why 1 Th 4:17 will go straight to Heaven. Rev 4:1 backs up that claim.

Please note about Rev 4:1 that Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he was receiving his vision of Revelation. An angel showed John everything he heard and saw. That is proven by Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 4:1 is a future event. It's the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Julie, 1 Cor 15:52 relates only to 1 Th 4:16-17. Please compare them. Therefore, 1 Th 4:17 goes straight to Heaven. Jesus' descent is thereby provably minimal. After we're assembled there, Jesus will descend into the view of believers only, fulfilling the prophecy in Acts 1:11.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And I believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA back to live in the God's Universe , as written in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 .

And you have NOT shown where a Greek word for RAPTURE is written in the bible !!

And I know of 1 Thess 3:13-18 and am Pre- tribulation and 2 Thess 2:3 is the proof .

dan p

Mr. Perez, 1 Cor 15:52 relates only to 1 Th 4:16-17. Please compare them. Therefore, 1 Th 4:17 goes straight to Heaven. Jesus' descent is thereby provably minimal. After we're assembled there, Jesus will descend into the view of believers only, fulfilling the prophecy in Acts 1:11.

 

[Diamond72]

Specifically the Mount of Olives, which splits in half.

That is actually my aviator. Zechariah 14 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

It took me a long time to figure out how the split can be east and west, north and south at the same time. Yet we see that is exactly what is going to happen.