HELLUCINATIONS

[Jeffrey Bowden]

An hallucination is: to see something that isn’t there and if what is perceived contradicts scripture, then it is from the depths of hell.

People who believe that God will rapture them to heaven sometime from now - to when Jesus Returns say, that a rapture - removal of the Church - is prophesied. But the reality is that it isn’t. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing said to happen. Even 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, does not mention heaven.

Rapture believers say: We are not appointed to wrath, and, The Lord delivers us from tribulation. To make these scriptures mean a removal from planet earth, directly to God’s dwelling place of heaven, is an impossible stretch of the imagination.

What people seem unable to comprehend is how the Lord will facilitate the travel to, the gathering and the settling of His faithful Christian peoples, into all of the Holy Land.
Many Prophesies show this is God’s Plan for all the people who prove their trust in Him and who: Call upon His name, for His protection, through all that must happen.

Keras, Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he was receiving his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Rev 4:1 is therefore entirely a future event, being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. That verse is the succinct version of 1 Th 4:16-17. Those verses and John 14:2-3 and Rev 3:10 will be fulfilled by Rev 4:1.

Keras, where does "Come up here" go to, in Rev 4:1?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There are NO believers who enter the Trib

I don't doubt that there will be many people who are not Christians in this present life before the Throne, at the finale.

That still doesn't mean believers get an easy out. I've stated Peter on this subject before:

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And similarly, with Paul in Romans 9:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

IF you understand that you are not just you and same for me. Both of us consist of ourselves as God's children AND we are subject in our own minds and hearts to the TEMPTER. Mark 4:15

It's never been "just you" standing in your own shoes. And once you see this, you would actually be ecstatic over being privileged to see the destruction of our mutual adversary, right where you are standing, in the great tribulation

The great tribulation is for our enemies, the devil and his messengers. These two parties, mankind and devilkind, will be permanently separated. Just as Jesus proposed and promised in Matt 25.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't doubt that there will be many people who are not Christians in this present life before the Throne, at the finale.

That still doesn't mean believers get an easy out. I've stated Peter on this subject before:

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And similarly, with Paul in Romans 9:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

IF you understand that you are not just you and same for me. Both of us consist of ourselves as God's children AND we are subject in our own minds and hearts to the TEMPTER. Mark 4:15

It's never been "just you" standing in your own shoes. And once you see this, you would actually be ecstatic over being privileged to see the destruction of our mutual adversary, right where you are standing, in the great tribulation

The great tribulation is for our enemies, the devil and his messengers. These two parties, mankind and devilkind, will be permanently separated. Just as Jesus proposed and promised in Matt 25.

What is Peter referring to in 1 Peter 4:17 as "the house of God?"

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 by his PROMISE to "keep YOU from the hour of trial?"

Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received the vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Rev 4:1 is therefore an event that is entirely in the future. It is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Where does "Come up here" go to in Rev 4:1?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

What is Peter referring to in 1 Peter 4:17 as "the house of God?"

Us. Where judgment begins

Jesus telling John to come up here to have a look at the final judgment of the devil and his messengers still doesn't equate to the collective getting off the hook. The very opposite is the case.

Satan will be bruised under our feet. Romans 16:20

You and I are carrying Satan in judgment as we speak

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Us. Where judgment begins

Jesus telling John to come up here to have a look at the final judgment of the devil and his messengers still doesn't equate to the collective getting off the hook. The very opposite is the case.

Satan will be bruised under our feet. Romans 16:20

You and I are carrying Satan in judgment as we speak

1 Peter 4 is entirely about Peter counseling his disciples about how to cope with the daily trials and tribulations of being a disciple. It has nothing to do with the Trib. The "fiery trial" in verse 12 is about the extreme moments of personal discomfort when addressing a particularly antagonistic individual or group. As one example, atheists can do this to Christians in discussions about the legitimacy of the Bible as a history book.

Romans 16:20 is about Satan's defeat in Rev 20:7-10.

The Holy Spirit inhabits us, not Satan. Satan inhabited Judas (Luke 22:3). That didn't turn out so well for Judas.

 

[Dan Perez]

Yes there is, it is ἁρπάζω (harpazó translated "caught up". We are "raptured" when we die because we leave our body behind. Paul did not even understand this. "3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise." (2 Corinthians 12)

Interesting how people claim to understand what Paul did not even understand.

And HARPAZO is NOT the Greek word for the Greek word for RAPTURE and can not be found in VINE'S GREEK DICTIONARY .

In 1 Thess 4:17 we will see the Greek word SHALL BE CAUGHT UP // HARPAZO , and is in Greek FUTURE TENSE ,

in the Greek PASSIVE VOICE , in the Greek INDICATIVE MOOD , in the PLURAL

# 2 Then in 1 Thess 4:15 , we see the GREEK word COMING // PAROUSIA , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , in the SINGULR .

# 3 Another one in Gal 1:4 , RESCUE // EXAIREO , in the Greek AORIST TENSE , in the MIDDLE VOICE , in the SUBJUNCTIVE MOOD .

# 4 Another one in 2 Thess 2:1 , COMING // PAROUSA

#5 Another one in 2 Thess 2:3 , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA and does not mean FALING AWAY .

dan p

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes there is, it is ἁρπάζω (harpazó translated "caught up". We are "raptured" when we die because we leave our body behind. Paul did not even understand this. "3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise." (2 Corinthians 12)

Interesting how people claim to understand what Paul did not even understand.

What do Jesus' words in Rev 3:10 mean? Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

"Hour of trial" means Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27), otherwise known as the 7-year-Trib. We will not enter the Trib.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Holy Spirit inhabits us, not Satan.

IF your claim is that you are not subject to temptations in mind by our adversary, you are sorely deceived

As soon as you admit the obvious that we all know, you'll stop trying to get our adversary off the hook and be ready for Divine Vengeance, personally applied

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What verse are you talking about. None of the verses you gave me talks about tribulation.

IF your claim is that you are not subject to temptations in mind by our adversary, you are sorely deceived

As soon as you admit the obvious that we all know, you'll stop trying to get our adversary off the hook and be ready for Divine Vengeance, personally applied.

You’re changing the topic.

Does Satan inhabit us?

 

[Dan Perez]

What is Peter referring to in 1 Peter 4:17 as "the house of God?"

What does Jesus mean in Rev 3:10 by his PROMISE to "keep YOU from the hour of trial?"

Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received the vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Rev 4:1 is therefore an event that is entirely in the future. It is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Where does "Come up here" go to in Rev 4:1?

And this is what I see !!

1 Peter 4:17 speaks about the HOUSE // OIKOS , which is in the Greek GENITIVE CASE , and in the SLINGULAR , meaning only one House of God !!

Paul in Gal 3:28 reads , WE // ESTE , is in the PRESENT TENSE is in the NOW , ALL // PAS , is in the Greek , NOMINATIVE CASE , says it is the SUBJECT , in the PLURAL

ONE // HEIS , is also in the NOMINATIVE CASE and in the Greek SINGULAR , meaning one body .

And 1 Cor 12:115- 17 it says , that we are ,

His EYES

His SENSE OF HEARING

His SENSE OF SMELL

His HANDS

Peter is speaking to Israel !!

Paul is speaking to the Body of Christ !!

dan p

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You’re changing the topic.

Does Satan inhabit us?

What makes you think Satan's internal influences have to be Hollywood head spinning vomit spewing?

Are you tempted in mind by the tempter or not?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What makes you think Satan's internal influences have to be Hollywood head spinning vomit spewing?

Are you tempted in mind by the tempter or not?

What makes you think Satan's internal influences have to be Hollywood head spinning vomit spewing?

Are you tempted in mind by the tempter or not?

You need to answer my question, first.

Are we inhabited by Satan? If you say yes, show me Bible verse that says so.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You need to answer my question, first.

Are we inhabited by Satan? If you say yes, show me Bible verse that says so.

We are all bound in the flesh to the spirit of disobedience aka Satan and his messengers

Do you need scriptural references? Mark 4:15, Mark 7:21-23, Acts 26:18, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor 12:7, Gal 4:14, 1 John 3:8, and of course there are many many more. These are a simple primer of essential Christianity. It's one of the least kept secrets of our beliefs

Now, tell me if you are tempted internally by the tempter?

And just so we're clear on these kinds of conversations, I don't condemn any people to hell for our mutual condition, but I do tend to pinpoint and condemn the devils in people quite often, even in my own sorry hide first

I'll even add a P.S. here: The instant you speak the truth on this matter, your theology will change and be more honest and accurate. You also would probably stop wanting an early out via a pretrib rapture and will be more interested in staying here in hopes that you would see humanities permanent release from our adversaries via Christ our Lord

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We are all bound in the flesh to the spirit of disobedience aka Satan and his messengers

Do you need scriptural references? Mark 4:15, Mark 7:21-23, Acts 26:18, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor 12:7, Gal 4:14, 1 John 3:8, and of course there are many many more. These are a simple primer of essential Christianity. It's one of the least kept secrets of our beliefs

Now, tell me if you are tempted internally by the tempter?

And just so we're clear on these kinds of conversations, I don't condemn any people to hell for our mutual condition, but I do tend to pinpoint and condemn the devils in people quite often, even in my own sorry hide first

I'll even add a P.S. here: The instant you speak the truth on this matter, your theology will change and be more honest and accurate. You also would probably stop wanting an early out via a pretrib rapture and will be more interested in staying here in hopes that you would see humanities permanent release from our adversaries via Christ our Lord

First of all, I am not seeking an early out, a middle out, or a late out. I am going by the Bible when it comes to the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17 along with 1 Cor 15:52). If you immediately dismiss those verses as pertaining to the rapture, you are probably mistaken about the trumpet in Matt 24:31 as supposedly the same trumpet in 1 Th 4:16. That is big error that is famously made by the Catholic Church, as one of many potential examples.

If you compare the purposes of those trumpets, and that each one is sounded only once, each trumpet will be seen to be inapplicable to each other. Therefore, Matt 24:31 and 1 Th 4:16 are separate events that have nothing to do with each other. They each take place years apart from each other. Matt 24:31 is part and parcel to the 2A. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 has everything to do with the rapture that occurs years earlier. 1 Th 4:16-17 have nothing to do with the 2A. That's not me saying that; the Bible proves that.

1 Cor 15:52 relates only to 1 Th 4:16-17. A careful comparison will make that obvious. The trumpet for raising the dead in Christ is cited in verses 52 and 16. They are the same trumpet for the same purpose. Here's 1 Cor 15:52 (ESV): in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Here's 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

When that trumpet sounds, we will be changed instantly into our eternal bodies. Billions of believers (the dead in Christ and we who are already alive) will be changed together, instantly.

Here's 1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Here's John 14:3 (ESV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

The "caught up together" in verse 1 Th 4:17 is talking about the same rapture in John 14:3 ("will take you to myself"). We are taken to Heaven, where Jesus is now. How do I know that? Every rapture in the Bible goes straight to Heaven: 2 Kings 2:11; Rev 11:12; Rev 7:14-15 (the GM are raptured to Heaven) and Rev 14:3 (the 144k are raptured to Heaven).

Jesus PROMISED in Rev 3:10 that He will keep us from the Trib: Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Do you recognize in Rev 3:10 who Jesus is referring to with the words "you" and "those?" There are two groups cited in that verse. "You" are believers; and "those" are unbelievers who are the unbelievers who will be left behind after the pre-Trib rapture. Do you not believe Jesus' words in Rev 3:10?

The rapture of the Church is guaranteed to occur pre-Trib because of Rev 4:1. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he received his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. So, you see? The pre-Trib rapture is PROMISED by Jesus in Rev 3:10, and it's right there in Rev 4:1 to occur before the Trib.

I am going by the Bible.

We are all tempted by Satan. We are all sinners. By the grace of God, are sins are forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ. It is up to each of us believers to learn to live a life pleasing to God.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

We are all tempted by Satan

Well, thanks for finally getting around to the obvious, and telling the truth of it

Now you might even see it's not just you that God is dealing with

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Well, thanks for finally getting around to the obvious, and telling the truth of it

Now you might even see it's not just you that God is dealing with

Is it also obvious that there will be a pre-Trib rapture: Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1.

God bless!

 

[David Lamb]

Is it also obvious that there will be a pre-Trib rapture: Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1.

God bless!

If by "pre-Trib rapture" you mean Christians being removed from the earth before the tribulation of the Second Coming, where do the verses you mention say anything about that? They say:

“"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Re 3:10 NKJV)

Those words were to one local church. and the verse doesn't say that the members of that church will be removed from the world.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard [was] like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."” (Re 4:1 NKJV)

This is being spoken to the apostle John. It says nothing about all Christians being removed from the earth.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Is it also obvious that there will be a pre-Trib rapture: Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1.

God bless!

If I've failed to mention it prior I don't consider any person's beliefs on end time matters will affect either their salvation or the outcome

Everyone carries their own special doses of deceptions, and that's kind of what we get around to seeing when we're being honest. I like honesty myself

 

[The Liturgist]

Hallucinations.....also can be directed at those who prophesize and preach that only they know the true meaning of God's Word!

Amen to that. In Orthodoxy we have a word, “prelest” meaning spiritual delusion.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

If by "pre-Trib rapture" you mean Christians being removed from the earth before the tribulation of the Second Coming, where do the verses you mention say anything about that? They say:

“"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Re 3:10 NKJV)

Those words were to one local church. and the verse doesn't say that the members of that church will be removed from the world.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard [was] like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."” (Re 4:1 NKJV)

This is being spoken to the apostle John. It says nothing about all Christians being removed from the earth.

Mr. Lamb, let's look closer at Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

I want to first point out two keywords: "you" and "those." There are two groups cited in that verse. Jesus said “you” only when He was speaking to the believers present. When He said "those,"He was referencing unbelievers, only. Please also note the phrase He used: "those who dwell on the earth." In the context of the Trib, that is a derogatory phrase that references unbelievers, only.

In Rev 3:10, Jesus says "the hour of trial ... is …to try those who dwell on the earth." Jesus was saying only unbelievers will be tried by the hour of trial. The hour of trial is Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27), otherwise known as the 7-year Trib.

Jesus also said in Rev 3:10, "I will keep you from the hour of trial ..." That statement was made only about believers. It's a future promise that we Christians will not enter the Trib. Therefore, where will we be taken to?

Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his entire vision of Revelation. Everything he heard and saw were presented to him by one angel. Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, ----- Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future, as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.