HELLUCINATIONS

[Ace777]

# 1 For one there is no Greek word for RAPTURE !!

Yes there is, it is ἁρπάζω (harpazó translated "caught up". We are "raptured" when we die because we leave our body behind. Paul did not even understand this. "3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise." (2 Corinthians 12)

Interesting how people claim to understand what Paul did not even understand.

 

[AV1611VET]

Interesting how people claim to understand what Paul did not even understand.

Au contraire.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

[Ace777]

Au contraire.

Of course you are the exception to the rule.

Paul said: "I DO NOT KNOW". I suppose I should stick to the KJV to keep you happy. For you Romans 7:15 says:
"I allow not". In the NIV we read: "I do not understand". I do usually try to stick to the KJV to keep everyone happy.

 

[AV1611VET]

Of course you are the exception to the rule.

Paul said: "I DO NOT KNOW". I suppose I should stick to the KJV to keep you happy. For you Romans 7:15 says:
"I allow not". In the NIV we read: "I do not understand". I do usually try to stick to the KJV to keep everyone happy.

Ace, we're talking past each other here.

We are referring to two different things.

In the passage you're referencing, Paul had been stoned to death in Lystra, and his body dumped outside the city.

Acts 14:18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.
19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

And as his disciples stood around him, he came back to life.

Acts 14:20 Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

In that period of time that he was dead, his spirit went to Heaven, and this is what he had to say about it:

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This has nothing to do with the Rapture that is to take place at the end of the current dispensation we are in.

That is, the Dispensation of Grace (or Church Age, as some call it).

Two different events, totally unrelated.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I believe people if they tell me the are mid or post trib believers. I do not accuse them of being unbelievers. Matthew 9:29 “According to your faith let it be done to you";

First, there is no rapture of the Church (all living believers and all dead in Christ) after the Trib starts. Matt 24:31 is not a rapture, it is just a gathering. That verse doesn't even say where that gathering ends up. Rapture verses prove we are gathered TO HIM (2 Th 2:1; 1 Th 4:17 and John 14:3). Second, the purpose to the trumpet in Matt 24:31 does not match the purpose of the trumpet in a rapture verse, 1 Th 4:16. Therefore, those two verses are not related to the same event. There is abundant proof that the rapture will only occur pre-Trib.

 

[Ace777]

after the Trib starts.

What verse are you talking about. None of the verses you gave me talks about tribulation.

 

[Ace777]

This has nothing to do with the Rapture

It has everything to do with the rapture because that is the word Paul used. " such a one caught up to the third heaven." If we want to understand the meaning of "caught up" then we have to look at ALL the verses in the Bible KJ or otherwise that uses this word. Then from the context we can understand the meaning.

Of course I would prefer to study the Hebrew rather than the Greek, but we do not seem to have a word in the Hebrew for "caught up". For example Genesis 5:24 Enoch was no more. Paul tells us In Hebrews Enoch was translated 11:5 so we have a Greek word but no Hebrew word that we an study. Even we have two words we are looking at, caught up and translated.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God, and then he was no .​

 

[AV1611VET]

If we want to understand the meaning of "caught up" then we have to look at ALL the verses in the Bible KJ or otherwise that uses this word. Then from the context we can understand the meaning.

And how's that working out for you?

How is your understanding now?

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

 

[Ace777]

And how's that working out for you?

Works out great for me.
I do not regret going to Bible College. Do you think that I should?
I enjoy to study what the Rabbi have to say about the Bible before KJV.
But you seem to want to start there and that is fine. We all have to start somewhere.

 

[AV1611VET]

I enjoy to study what the Rabbi have to say about the Bible before KJV.
But you seem to want to start there and that is fine. We all have to start somewhere.

You are correct.

My starting point is the KJB.

I prefer a pen to a quill.

 

[Ace777]

My starting point is the KJB.

I prefer a pen to a quill.

I am pretty sure the real claim to fame was the printing press.
They are still printing and giving away as many Bibles as they can.
I have a friend that is devoted to printing as many Bibles as he can and giving them away.

 

[AV1611VET]

I have a friend that is devoted to printing as many Bibles as he can and giving them away.

 

[Aaron112]

We are "raptured" when we die because we leave our body behind.

no. If anyone ever gets raptured, according to Yahweh's plan, it is not because they leave their body behind.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What verse are you talking about. None of the verses you gave me talks about tribulation.

You did not give enough of a quote for me to find those words.

Here is proof that no believers will enter the Trib:

In Rev 6:15–17, everyone in the whole world gathers. An alleged sighting of Jesus occurs, and everyone runs in terror to hide from Jesus. That is the complete opposite of how believers would react. We would run TO Jesus to thank Him and worship Him! Therefore, everyone on Earth as of Rev 6:15-17 is definitely a certified unbeliever.

Rev 9:4 (ESV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. ----- Who would be the only folks at that time with the seal of God on their foreheads? The 144k (Rev 7:3-4). So, only the 144k and all those (still unconverted) unbelievers are on Earth.

Jesus promised in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you from the hour of trial...” ----- The "hour of trial" is Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:27), known as the 7-year Trib. We believers will not enter the Trib. We will be raptured beforehand through Rev 4:1. It's provable in Scripture that Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely in the future, as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We Christian people will go to live in all of the holy Land BEFORE Jesus Returns. As Ezekiel 40 to 48 describe.

Your quote of John 14:1-3, will not be fulfilled until the new Jerusalem comes, AFTER the Millennium. Rev 21:1

1 Th 1:10 is about the pre-Trib rapture. Here is 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The "wrath to come" is in the 2nd seal, in the specific form of wars. The wars in the 2nd seal will break out all over the world simultaneously. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Wars in the 2nd seal are a certified form of God's wrath. What is God's wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

So, there you have four certified forms of God's wrath: war, famine, wild animals (to attack and brutally kill humans), and disease. Wars are the centerpiece of the 2nd seal. That is the certified form of God's "wrath to come" in 1 Th 1:10. In that verse, Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come.

What does the usage of "delivers us" mean in 1 Th 1:10? Let's consult Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology. "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")."

Therefore, in the context of 1 Th 1:10, "delivers us" means we are "snatched away." In John 14:3 (ESV), that's equivalent to "will take you to myself." It’s an instant removal from Earth directly to Heaven. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he received his vision of Revelation. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is certified as a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

One final note: The certified forms of God’s wrath in Ezekiel 14:21 also occur in the 4th seal. Rev 6:7-8 (ESV): When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Therefore, seals 2 and 4 are chock-full of certified forms of God’s wrath. 1 Th 1:10 is thoroughly validated as being about the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There are NO believers who enter the Trib. Proof is from Rev 6:4 (ESV): And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. ---- No believers would be made to kill each other.

Also, in Rev 6:15-17, "everyone" in the world is gathered. They all run in terror to hide from an alleged sighting of Jesus. Their behavior is the complete opposite of what believers would do. No believers enter the Trib.

Any alleged believers in the Trib are new converts from the hard work of the 144k (Rev 7:1-18) and the 2W (Two Witnesses) in Rev 11:3. They are all martyred and become the souls under the altar in Rev 6:10 and (implied in) Rev 20:4. All are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4, and they are next seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-18.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

An hallucination is: to see something that isn’t there and if what is perceived contradicts scripture, then it is from the depths of hell.

People who believe that God will rapture them to heaven sometime from now - to when Jesus Returns say, that a rapture - removal of the Church - is prophesied. But the reality is that it isn’t. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing said to happen. Even 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, does not mention heaven.

Rapture believers say: We are not appointed to wrath, and, The Lord delivers us from tribulation. To make these scriptures mean a removal from planet earth, directly to God’s dwelling place of heaven, is an impossible stretch of the imagination.

What people seem unable to comprehend is how the Lord will facilitate the travel to, the gathering and the settling of His faithful Christian peoples, into all of the Holy Land.
Many Prophesies show this is God’s Plan for all the people who prove their trust in Him and who: Call upon His name, for His protection, through all that must happen.

Most end time studies are quite fruitless for one simple reason: The enemies of us all are never factored into the pictures.

We all bear our enemies in the flesh, even now.

and, at the end, it is THEY who will be divided from us, conquered and sent away, destroyed

IF any believer says our enemies are people, they remain asleep

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And there are many that have Hallucinations and here is why !!

# 1 For one there is no Greek word for RAPTURE !!

#2 And when checking 2 Thess 2:1 reads , Now we ask you , on account of the COMING // PAROUSIA , means Christ is COMING

even our GATHERING // EPISYNAGOGE is a Greek noun in the GENTIVE CASE , which means Description and is in the SINGULAR .

# 3 Then in 1 Thess 1:10 Paul wrote , And to wait for His Son from heaven , Whom He raised from the dead , Jesus , the one

RESCUING us from the WRATH , which speaks of the Tribulation .

A lot of Hallucination it seems !!

dan p

It's maybe time to understand that thee "Great Tribulation" and the "Wrath to come" is for our enemies.

WHO are our enemies?

Simple question with a simple answer

And yes, we will be here to participate. Even now we are participating. No hallucinations or flying into space required:

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

What is our prayer?: THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH

Why would we not want to be here for this?

Jesus comes here and finishes the job. No reason at all for us not to participate and every reason in the world to be here, with Him, where He Is

 

[Aaron112]

For one simple perspective on enemies.
brave search: believer+says+our+enemies+are+people

"The world refers to the societal system and its influences, which can be embodied by individuals who promote sin and rebellion against God. For example, Paul’s enemies in 2 Corinthians 5:11 and Acts 26:17-18 were human beings who needed to be persuaded and set free from Satan’s power.
The flesh represents the believer’s own sinful nature, inherited from Adam and Eve. However, this internal struggle is often manifest through interactions with other people, making human enemies a significant aspect of this enemy.
The devil is often depicted as a tempter and accuser, but his primary method of operation is through influencing and exploiting human weaknesses and sinful tendencies.
In summary, while the believer acknowledges the existence of a spiritual enemy (the devil),

the primary emphasis is on human enemies, including those who promote worldly values and those within oneself (the flesh)."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Let's look at Dan 7:21 (ESV): As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,

Let's then look at Rev 13:7 (ESV): Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

Also, related to the same saints: Rev 12:17 (ESV): Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

You need to be familiar with the "great multitude" in Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.

Also in Rev 7:14 (NLT): ... “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

There are NO believers who enter the Trib, except for the servants of God who are sent there, under His protection: the "144k" (Rev 7:3-4) and the "2W" (Two Witnesses) in Rev 11:3 (ESV): And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in burlap and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.”

There are billions of unbelievers who will enter the Trib. The "great multitude" will be millions of new converts in the Trib. They will all be martyred for at least one reason: their testimony of Jesus. They will enter the Trib as unbelievers. They will see the light of salvation and be converted by the hard work of the 144k and the 2W. It is these new converts who'll be the "saints" in the Trib.