Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

FreeinChrist · Nov 6, 2003

Pericles said:
I am still confused. Is the mark of the beast an actual visible mark that people will receive and the mark of God is NOT?

Where is the phrase "mark of God" used in Revelation?
The 144,000 are sealed - not taking a mark.

Atkin · Nov 6, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Where is the phrase "mark of God" used in Revelation?
The 144,000 are sealed - not taking a mark.

Where does it say in Revelation that human beings will be branded with a

visible mark.

No American can be branded like a slave by some President.

The Bible is not about aliens and extra terrestrials etc.

No citizen of any modern Christian nation will be branded like an animal.

Ben_Hur · Nov 7, 2003

Atkin said:
Where does it say in Revelation that human beings will be branded with a

visible mark.

No American can be branded like a slave by some President.

The Bible is not about aliens and extra terrestrials etc.

No citizen of any modern Christian nation will be branded like an animal.

I wonder if the Jews that went through the Holocaust thought the same thing. And you are assuming USA will still be around.

Ben_Hur · Nov 7, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Where is the phrase "mark of God" used in Revelation?
The 144,000 are sealed - not taking a mark.

The word "mark" is mentioned 8 times in Revelation:
(Rev 13:16) And it causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark on their right hand, or in their foreheads,
(Rev 13:17) even that not any might buy or sell except those having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.

(Rev 14:9) And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,

(Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

(Rev 15:2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

(Rev 16:2) And the first went and poured out his vial on the earth. And a bad and grievous sore fell on the men who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image.

(Rev 19:20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The sealing was hinted at here:
Rev 7:3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we havesealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
And performed here:
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands, having been sealedout of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

I'm not sure how not being able to "buy or sell" without the mark translates to a "spiritual" state, however (in the case of preterism, that is). It sounds like a very "trade" related term.

Pericles · Nov 7, 2003

Wills said:
Pericles,

You seem to imply that people LIVING TODAY have used the Bible to prove their ancestry from Jacob's Israel.

Historical or anthropological records as maintained by human beings

are exceedingly insufficient and grossly incapable of proving lineage and

identifying those who are descendants from the tribesmen of Jesus Christ

of Nazareth.

Let me show you how Israelites are PROPERLY and accurately identified

please read--

Luke 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

No so called historical or anthropological records were needed to identify Zacharias as an Israelite.

Please read this very , very carefully and answer with appropriate depth.

You didn't answer my question AT ALL! WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT TODAY'S INDIAND AND BRITS ARE JEWS?

Pericles · Nov 7, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Where is the phrase "mark of God" used in Revelation?
The 144,000 are sealed - not taking a mark.

It's the "seal of God" which is put on their foreheads, just like the mark of the beast is put on people's foreheads. Why is the seal of God not an actual seal, and why is the mark of the Beast an actual mark? Please answer the question...

armothe · Nov 7, 2003

Wills said:
Your post is incomplete. Take your time and carefully answer this uestion. Please give it enough thought.

I am just curious to know how you determine who is a Jew and who is not.
What exactly proves that a nation is a JEWISH NATION , and upon what criteria do you identify a Jew living today as a descendant of Jacob?

You seemed to have avoided explaining how you came by that term , a "Jewish nation" as defined by today's standards.

You are bound by the exact same criteria, my friend.

Perhaps; you should use your own requested critera to prove to myself and our readers just how you conclude that China is a Jewish/Hebrew nation?

It's a logical fact that Israel was a Hebrew/Jewish nation
It's a logical fact that the 12 tribes of Israel were Hebrew/Jewish nations
It's a logical fact that the kings of Israel were geneaological descendents of Jacob (Israel).

I've provided enough proof that the promise of God to Jacob has been fulfilled.

People like you just *have* to find a way to drag out God's promises so they somehow apply to you in this day and age.

It really just blows my mind how you can sit there and claim that all the nations in the world were spawned from Jacob/Israel.

How about the common fact that the majority of Europe arose from Japheth's descendents? Jacob wasn't even to be born for another 500 years!

-A

Romanbear · Nov 7, 2003

Hi faith 03;
A quote from yopur post;

What makes this situation even more ironic is that it can be easily shown from this same proof-text that Jesus will not return. This is due to the simple fact that Jesus himself put a time-limit on his predictions. "Verily I say unto you", declares the would-be Messiah, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled"

The generation he was speaking of hasn't passed away Because all of the things he listed haven't come to be yet. Notice Christ didn't say my generation. He said this generation meaning the one he was talking about. When the gospel has been preached in every country this is when he will return...

In Christ;
Romanbear

Pericles · Nov 7, 2003

Romanbear said:
When the gospel has been preached in every country this is when he will return...

In Christ;
Romanbear

The Bible doesn't say "when the gospel has been preached in every country"...please stop making stuff up. The word used is "world". The gospel has been preached to the "whole world" more than 2,000 years ago already...this is all history.

Ben_Hur · Nov 7, 2003

Pericles said:
The Bible doesn't say "when the gospel has been preached in every country"...please stop making stuff up. The word used is "world". The gospel has been preached to the "whole world" more than 2,000 years ago already...this is all history.

Ok, if we are not going to "make stuff up" then you have to admit that it is likely no one made it to the whole "world" such as the America's or even southern Africa 2000 years ago, or how about the natives of Austrailia - or are you going to now question written world history?

FreeinChrist · Nov 7, 2003

Pericles said:
It's the "seal of God" which is put on their foreheads, just like the mark of the beast is put on people's foreheads. Why is the seal of God not an actual seal, and why is the mark of the Beast an actual mark? Please answer the question...

Perhaps the sealing of the 144,000 involves an actual visable seal on their foreheads. But in looking at the Greek words and their meanings, I believe the seal of God is not necessarily visable but a mark is.
Sealed "sphragizo"- to seal, close up and make fast, figuratively - to keep in silence, to set a seal for the sake of security, to secure someone, deliver safely, and in regards to people - to set a seal as a token of of approval,to confirm, to attest.
Synonyms include kleio - to shut or close, asphalizo - to render secure, and sugklieo - to enclose, shut up.

mark "charagma" - to engrave, an engraving, something graven or sculptured.
A synonym of "charagma" is "stigma" - which is to make a puncture, or mark with a hot brand, to brand.

So I definitely believe that to take the mark requires a visable marking on the skin. But the sealing of the 144,000 is similar to our being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

FreeinChrist · Nov 7, 2003

Ben_Hur said:
I wonder if the Jews that went through the Holocaust thought the same thing. And you are assuming USA will still be around.

Back in the early 70's, I met some folks who had been at Auschwitz and Dachau, and they had numbers branded on them. Sad...

armothe · Nov 7, 2003

Ben_Hur said:
Ok, if we are not going to "make stuff up" then you have to admit that it is likely no one made it to the whole "world" such as the America's or even southern Africa 2000 years ago, or how about the natives of Austrailia - or are you going to now question written world history?

Matthew 24:14 - This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Romans 1:8 - First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

-A

Ben_Hur · Nov 8, 2003

armothe said:
Matthew 24:14 - This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Romans 1:8 - First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

-A

These verses are in the future tense. "Shall be preached.." does not indicate "has been preached." "Faith is being proclaimed..." does not mean "has been proclaimed..."

BTW, the context of Romans 1:8 in Romans 1 in general, as I've stated before, indicates that Paul is talking about the Gospel not being actually preached to everyone face to face, but that it is evident in His creation. This further supports my argument that whenever Paul refers to the Gospel being preached to "every creature" he is aluding to his thoughts in Romans 1, not a work that was completed by or through physical man.

parousia70 · Nov 8, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
So I definitely believe that to take the mark requires a visable marking on the skin.

Well I guess that rules out invisible under-skin microchip implants.

FreeinChrist · Nov 8, 2003

I don't believe it will be chips. Though under the skin chips would fit with puncture and engrave.

Pericles · Nov 8, 2003

Ben_Hur said:
These verses are in the future tense. "Shall be preached.." does not indicate "has been preached." "Faith is being proclaimed..." does not mean "has been proclaimed..."

BTW, the context of Romans 1:8 in Romans 1 in general, as I've stated before, indicates that Paul is talking about the Gospel not being actually preached to everyone face to face, but that it is evident in His creation. This further supports my argument that whenever Paul refers to the Gospel being preached to "every creature" he is aluding to his thoughts in Romans 1, not a work that was completed by or through physical man.

"the gospel which has come to you, just as in ALL THE WORLD also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth" - Col 1.

"continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister." - Col 1

Stop looking for excuses and accept the word of God for what it says! It is more important than you tradition and theology!

Wills · Nov 8, 2003

Pericles said:
You didn't answer my question AT ALL! WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT TODAY'S INDIAND AND BRITS ARE JEWS?

Jesus did not leave a family tree , yes?

Did God use human records to locate Israelites?

No.

Wills · Nov 8, 2003

armothe said:
You are bound by the exact same criteria, my friend.

Perhaps; you should use your own requested critera to prove to myself and our readers just how you conclude that China is a Jewish/Hebrew nation?

It's a logical fact that Israel was a Hebrew/Jewish nation
It's a logical fact that the 12 tribes of Israel were Hebrew/Jewish nations
It's a logical fact that the kings of Israel were geneaological descendents of Jacob (Israel).

I've provided enough proof that the promise of God to Jacob has been fulfilled.

People like you just *have* to find a way to drag out God's promises so they somehow apply to you in this day and age.

It really just blows my mind how you can sit there and claim that all the nations in the world were spawned from Jacob/Israel.

How about the common fact that the majority of Europe arose from Japheth's descendents? Jacob wasn't even to be born for another 500 years!

-A

It is pretty obvious that King David and Jesus Christ were Israelites.

You have deviated completely from what we were discussing.

I am not dragging any promises anywhere.

OUR FOCUS is on 21st century Israelites.
All I asked you was to explain how you could be 100% sure that
a Jewish nation today is as Israelite as JESUS CHRIST was in terms of lineage.

I am asking about your identification methodology regarding the location
of 21 st century Israelites.

armothe · Nov 8, 2003

Hello everyone, here is an article about Jesus not returning, is it true? I hope not.

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