HELL

[bling]

GOD GIVES US A NEW NATURE. OTHERWISE THERE WOULD BE NONE.

When did this happen for you?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm very aware of people having various theological views. That's what I expect especialy on this thread. Thank you for responding. God rescued me from a cult.

He rescued me from a cult as well.
Blessings!

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are somethings that are impossible to do, not even God can make another Jesus, since Jesus is not a made being. In the same way, God cannot instinctively make a being with Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. An instinctive type love would be a robotic type love.
Obtaining Godly type Love is why we are here on earth for a short time and God is Loving and powerful enough to sovereignly allow us to accept this Love of our own free will.

But, it's rather silly to phrase it that way. Some things are impossible. They are impossible because they are logically self-contradictory. They are not even "things", as such. It is not that God cannot do something; it is that something self-contradictory is a ludicrous notion—and thus, impossible that it should be. That our silly minds can invent false notions does not limit God. Bad argument.

I didn't read @Rescued One to say anything about instinctive "love". You make a logical leap precisely in the face of obvious self-contradiction, when you claim that God created everything, and then contradict it to say that God gave us uncaused free will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

When did this happen for you?

When the Holy Spirit took up residence within her, raising her from death to life. @Rescued One has already referred to Eph 2, here. It is not because of any worthy ability endemic to herself, but all by the work of God, that she is saved. Romans 8 shows no one can submit to God's law, nor even to please God apart from the mind of the Spirit.

 

[Rescued One]

Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

And not just some of the time! If there is any good I choose, it is because of him doing it in me.

 

[bling]

But, it's rather silly to phrase it that way. Some things are impossible. They are impossible because they are logically self-contradictory. They are not even "things", as such. It is not that God cannot do something; it is that something self-contradictory is a ludicrous notion—and thus, impossible that it should be. That our silly minds can invent false notions does not limit God. Bad argument.

I didn't read @Rescued One to say anything about instinctive "love". You make a logical leap precisely in the face of obvious self-contradiction, when you claim that God created everything, and then contradict it to say that God gave us uncaused free will.

Some of this is true. God cannot instinctively cause us to love Him and others with Godly type Love since Godly type Love is not an instinctive type of love. Yes, God out of love for use and the His power to keep our choices from interfering with other people's free will choices can miraculously provide us for at least a time some limited free will ability.

 

[bling]

When the Holy Spirit took up residence within her, raising her from death to life. @Rescued One has already referred to Eph 2, here. It is not because of any worthy ability endemic to herself, but all by the work of God, that she is saved. Romans 8 shows no one can submit to God's law, nor even to please God apart from the mind of the Spirit.

Most of this is true, but we can for sinful selfish reasons accept pure undeserved charity as charity.

 

[bling]

Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Right and it is God's will for mature adult humans to have just limited free will to have the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective and become like God Himself (Love).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Most of this is true, but we can for sinful selfish reasons accept pure undeserved charity as charity.

Sure we can, but as fallen creatures —Eph 2, "dead"— we are incapable of salvific faith, through which we are saved. We do not save ourselves by grasping hold to charity. We cannot, but are enmity with God (Romans 8), until God rebirths us and places us in Christ, not by our permission nor by our consultation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Right and it is God's will for mature adult humans to have just limited free will to have the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective and become like God Himself (Love).

Contradiction of terms. It either is free or it is not. Not limited. But if you only mean, "valid", or "real", yes, it is real, and that, by God's establishing it. It is by no means, then, in any sense, uncaused. We imagine ourselves spontaneous, and from our point of view, that is close enough, because we don't know the myriad ways God deals with us.

We do have wills, but as fallen, they are slaves to sin, and as regenerated, they are slaves to Christ. And that is a different sort of freedom. To belong to Christ is to live according to the reason for our creation.

Now if by, "free", you mean that we can (and do) choose between options presented to us, yes, indeed we do choose, and are responsible for those choices, both the reprobate and the redeemed. And that would not be possible had God not been the first of a long, complicated, chain of cause-and-effect, (and, for the born again, of God working directly in us.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

Right! There is no glory for humans selfishly (sinfully) accepting pure undeserved charity as charity.

John 1:13 (Berean Literal) "who were born not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but of God."
NIV "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Accepting undeserved charity does not save anyone. That it is undeserved charity is beside the question. The gift of God is not something made valid to us by our grasping it, but by the Grace of God giving it us. HE generates that faith within us. THAT is being born again, born from above (John 3). We are not born again by us deciding anything. "...not of works"

 

[Rescued One]

bling, you are limiting your god's power. My God overrules Satan.

 

[Rescued One]

John 1:13 (Berean Literal) "who were born not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but of God."
NIV "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Accepting undeserved charity does not save anyone. That it is undeserved charity is beside the question. The gift of God is not something made valid to us by our grasping it, but by the Grace of God giving it us. HE generates that faith within us. THAT is being born again, born from above (John 3). We are not born again by us deciding anything. "...not of works"

Were it not for the truths you share, I'd have left this thread

 

[Mark Quayle]

Rescued One said:
Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Right and it is God's will for mature adult humans to have just limited free will to have the opportunity to fulfill their earthly objective and become like God Himself (Love).

I underlined your word, "right".

Even in your admission here (or at least in your arrangement of words), what you think of as our earthly objective cannot be accomplished apart from God working it in us—both to will and to do! Thus, causation. Not uncaused, not autonomous, not absolutely spontaneous and free.

 

[bling]

Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This verse is addressed to Christians. The question still remains, can you quench the Spirit and go on your own, since we are not always doing what God wants.

 

[bling]

Sure we can, but as fallen creatures —Eph 2, "dead"— we are incapable of salvific faith, through which we are saved. We do not save ourselves by grasping hold to charity. We cannot, but are enmity with God (Romans 8), until God rebirths us and places us in Christ, not by our permission nor by our consultation.

Jesus could use any words he wanted to convey the truth in the best way. In Luke 15 the father talking about the young son twice says he was "dead", but he was doing stuff, so being spiritual dead does not mean you cannot do stuff.
The unbelieving sinner cannot do anything righteous, holy, worthy honorable, but he can sinfully, selfishly accept pure undeserved charity.

 

[bling]

Rescued One said:
Philippians 2: 13

For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

I underlined your word, "right".

Even in your admission here (or at least in your arrangement of words), what you think of as our earthly objective cannot be accomplished apart from God working it in us—both to will and to do! Thus, causation. Not uncaused, not autonomous, not absolutely spontaneous and free.

The uncaused part man does of his own free will is humbly accept pure undeserved charity.

 

[bling]

John 1:13 (Berean Literal) "who were born not of blood, nor of will of flesh, nor of will of man, but of God."
NIV "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

Accepting undeserved charity does not save anyone. That it is undeserved charity is beside the question. The gift of God is not something made valid to us by our grasping it, but by the Grace of God giving it us. HE generates that faith within us. THAT is being born again, born from above (John 3). We are not born again by us deciding anything. "...not of works"

God saves and it is not anything we do to be saved, but we do not have to humble ourselves to accept God's charity as charity.

 

[bling]

bling, you are limiting your god's power. My God overrules Satan.

God has both the power and Love to allow humans some limited miraculous free will choices, without taking anything away from God. Satan is not overruling God, but humans are not forced to Love God, but make the choice to accept or reject God's Love.