Hell

[2PhiloVoid]

That raises a whole load of problems as well. How does the human personality endure an infinity of happiness any more than an infinity of anything else? Again, this was all the product of people who didn't really think it through because they were primitive, and when Christians today try to make sense of heaven or hell, they run into considerable difficulties.

A misunderstanding about the conceptual nature of Hades, Gehenna and/or Tartarus can also be propounded by later people who lose touch with the fuller context of the past cultures from which these concepts emerged and/or became intertwined. Of course, I've noticed that this fact I'm pointing to is often simply ignored since it complicates our ability to quickly come down clearly on one side or the other in the Hell debate (...as if there were only '2' sides to it to begin with). And God forbid if reading the Bible and understanding it proves to require some extensive effort ... especially in a push-button society.

 

[holo]

Yes .... the difference will be that our natural will ..... the choices we make will always be perfect ones.

So in heaven, I will be able to do anything, except sin. So, it's apparently possible to have completely free will while at the same time being unable to do anything wrong.

So why wouldn't God do it like that right away? That would ensure nobody ever did anything wrong, and all would go to heaven. He wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son either, because we'd all be sinless anyway.

 

[holo]

A misunderstanding about the conceptual nature of Hades, Gehenna and/or Tartarus can also be propounded by later people who lose touch with the fuller context of the past cultures from which these concepts emerged and/or became intertwined. Of course, I've noticed that this fact I'm pointing to is often simply ignored since it complicates our ability to quickly come down clearly on one side or the other in the Hell debate (...as if there were only '2' sides to it to begin with). And God forbid if reading the Bible and understanding it proves to require some extensive effort ... especially in a push-button society.

I think this is largely due to translations of the scriptures (which may or may not have been influenced by whatever theology or agenda the translators had). In most bibles I've read, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, and sometimes the lake of fire are all called hell.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think this is largely due to translations of the scriptures (which may or may not have been influenced by whatever theology or agenda the translators had). In most bibles I've read, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, and sometimes the lake of fire are all called hell.

Yep. And that English conflation between terms has, I think, caused .... *excuse the pun* ... a hell of a lot of interpretive problems for everyone.

 

[BigV]

God loves all mankind. He created all His intelligent beings with freewill ... each decides how they want to live. God has a government, laws, because without laws and people willfully abiding by them ... then there is chaos (such as we see in our world).

What is love? Love, according to 1 Cor. 13, does not keep a record of wrongs. Love is kind. Is God kind to humans by creating Hell and sending them there?

God offers everyone the opportunity to receive eternal life through His son Jesus ... one can be forgiven for anything they have done ... and choose to live differently and He will help one overcome their transgressions against His law and they will receive eternal life with Him.

First of all, he doesn't offer the same opportunity to people, unless you believe that Allah too offers the opportunity to receive salvation from Hell to everyone.

Second, God never offers anything. Instead, people make claims in a religious book. Is this how a loving being acts?

If I found an important truth, for example how to cure all cancers using a natural substance that works 100% of the time, would I be a loving being if I chose to reveal this information only through hallucinating people who would receive information from me by a 'revelation'?

Once a person passes from life on earth .... there is not a second chance to change their choice(s).

And whose choice is that? What's wrong with providing additional opportunities to be delivered out of Hell? Whose decision was that? Not mine! And I have no choice in the matter.

He respects people's freewill to choose ... even if their choices mean they will forfeit eternal life with Him.

Well, he doesn't really respect people's wills. For example, around 2000 years ago, God decided to show up, making all kinds of miracles and signs. Doing real tricks too. Why limit this performance only to a select group of people?

Secondly, this God doesn't reveal himself today in the same way, even not following his own promises. See, for example, John 14:12, where Jesus promised that whoever (or he who )believes in him will do the works he did! Nobody does the works of Jesus today, so someone must have given us false information. Whose choice was that? Not mine!

And why does Saul of Tarsus (a.k.a St Paul) get an intervention from God that nobody else got since then, as far as we know? I thought God was not a respecter of persons too?

 

[eleos1954]

So in heaven, I will be able to do anything, except sin. So, it's apparently possible to have completely free will while at the same time being unable to do anything wrong.

So why wouldn't God do it like that right away? That would ensure nobody ever did anything wrong, and all would go to heaven. He wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son either, because we'd all be sinless anyway.

***

Heaven & living on the new earth (to come) are for people who recognize Gods laws and loving nature are good and perfect.

When we choose to live contrary to the perfect morality of God then it produces destruction, pain and/or sorrow of some kind .... that's what we see and experience in our world now ... if people are ok with the way the world is now ... then life with God (now or in eternity) is not for them.

So why wouldn't God do it like that right away?

Free will

God doesn't make choices for anyone ... however He knows who do now and in the future will choose life with Him and who will not.

God doesn't force anyone to choose life with Him. All have that choice now .

God knows the future

God knows the future and He knows there are yet people in the future who will choose to believe in Him (Jesus). There will come a time (that only God knows) when He sees/knows the future choices to come do not include any believing in Him and He will return.

Does one want to live in heaven and the new world to come where only good exists? ... or does one not want that. Sin will be non-existent in heaven and on the new earth He will create ... if it were not so .... then heaven/eternal life would not be anything different than what we have now.

The Bible’s teaching on good versus evil (continuously sinning) leads to a challenging conclusion: that every person is obligated to make a fundamental choice between the two. That choice is entirely determined by our response to God (he invites all) - each choose to accept the invitation or not). Gpd who is both our Creator and He is the very definition of good. We strive/choose to either accept Jesus through whom we receive eternal life and ask Him to help change us and to help us follow His teachings or we rebel and choose to sin
1 Corinthians 10:13 .

For now, those who choose Him will mess up here and there ... but He helps us to overcome sin, over the course of our lifetime here on earth and He will bring us to completion when He returns.

Philippians 1:6
New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Eternally, this means we either choose to accept Him and His salvation John 3:16; 14:6 or align ourselves against Him John 3:36 . While we may be imperfect and fallible, we cannot be neutral in our approach to good versus evil. Our hearts are either seeking the goodness of God Matthew 7:7–8 Romans 2:4 or the selfishness of evil 1 Peter 3:10–12

Discerning between good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard: and that standard is the perfect nature of God. God is not subject to morality ... He is the source and benchmark for it. Nor is morality subject to change, since God’s perfect nature is eternal and unchanging.

Here is a resource you might be interested in where you can "ask questions" ... like what does the bible say about faith ... what does the bible say about new earth etc. The search criteria might bring up a few verses that do not directly apply but a lot of them will ... it is a "topical search" tool that encompasses the entire bible and provides a broad overview.

Topical Bible - Bible Verses by Topic

 

[eleos1954]

What is love? Love, according to 1 Cor. 13, does not keep a record of wrongs. Love is kind. Is God kind to humans by creating Hell and sending them there?


First of all, he doesn't offer the same opportunity to people, unless you believe that Allah too offers the opportunity to receive salvation from Hell to everyone.

Second, God never offers anything. Instead, people make claims in a religious book. Is this how a loving being acts?

If I found an important truth, for example how to cure all cancers using a natural substance that works 100% of the time, would I be a loving being if I chose to reveal this information only through hallucinating people who would receive information from me by a 'revelation'?


And whose choice is that? What's wrong with providing additional opportunities to be delivered out of Hell? Whose decision was that? Not mine! And I have no choice in the matter.



Well, he doesn't really respect people's wills. For example, around 2000 years ago, God decided to show up, making all kinds of miracles and signs. Doing real tricks too. Why limit this performance only to a select group of people?

Secondly, this God doesn't reveal himself today in the same way, even not following his own promises. See, for example, John 14:12, where Jesus promised that whoever (or he who )believes in him will do the works he did! Nobody does the works of Jesus today, so someone must have given us false information. Whose choice was that? Not mine!

And why does Saul of Tarsus (a.k.a St Paul) get an intervention from God that nobody else got since then, as far as we know? I thought God was not a respecter of persons too?

Here's a resource for you where you can run some topical searches in the bible and learn the answers to many of your questions. Best if you get the answers from His Word for yourself ... we are all (christians or not) called to do that. By searching out things topically it will give you a more broad overview rather than limiting yourself to selected verses that are not fully understood within themselves and/or out of context.

It is in a question format (search) and you have many of them.

Topical Bible - Bible Verses by Topic

 

[eleos1954]

What is love? Love, according to 1 Cor. 13, does not keep a record of wrongs. Love is kind. Is God kind to humans by creating Hell and sending them there?


First of all, he doesn't offer the same opportunity to people, unless you believe that Allah too offers the opportunity to receive salvation from Hell to everyone.

Second, God never offers anything. Instead, people make claims in a religious book. Is this how a loving being acts?

If I found an important truth, for example how to cure all cancers using a natural substance that works 100% of the time, would I be a loving being if I chose to reveal this information only through hallucinating people who would receive information from me by a 'revelation'?


And whose choice is that? What's wrong with providing additional opportunities to be delivered out of Hell? Whose decision was that? Not mine! And I have no choice in the matter.



Well, he doesn't really respect people's wills. For example, around 2000 years ago, God decided to show up, making all kinds of miracles and signs. Doing real tricks too. Why limit this performance only to a select group of people?

Secondly, this God doesn't reveal himself today in the same way, even not following his own promises. See, for example, John 14:12, where Jesus promised that whoever (or he who )believes in him will do the works he did! Nobody does the works of Jesus today, so someone must have given us false information. Whose choice was that? Not mine!

And why does Saul of Tarsus (a.k.a St Paul) get an intervention from God that nobody else got since then, as far as we know? I thought God was not a respecter of persons too?

You identify yourself as atheist ... don't believe God exists so ... truth is ... unless you are able to get by that obstacle ... having conversation about something you don't believe exists in the first place - God (much less His scripture) is meaningless conversation and rather non-sensical for either of us to engage in.

Galatians 6:7
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Make no mistake about this: You can never make a fool out of God. Whatever you plant is what you'll harvest.

I pray some day you will change your mind ;o)

 

[holo]

Does one want to live in heaven and the new world to come where only good exists? ... or does one not want that. Sin will be non-existent in heaven and on the new earth He will create ... if it were not so .... then heaven/eternal life would not be anything different than what we have now.

Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but I don't really see an answer to my questions here. I don't see why/how God, in the name of free will, must allow us to sin and hurt each other here on Earth, but not in heaven. The idea, if I understand it correctly, is that free will MUST entail the ability to sin.

If God won't allow sin in heaven, then why would he allow it on Earth? What could be the purpose?

 

[BigV]

You identify yourself as atheist ... don't believe God exists so ... truth is ... unless you are able to get by that obstacle ... having conversation about something you don't believe exists in the first place - God (much less His scripture) is meaningless conversation and rather non-sensical for either of us to engage in.

Look at my history. In 2007 or so I registered as a Baptist. I used to be a fundamentalist.

Btw, you should also know that your 'defense' of the Scriptures is on a par with a Muslim. You can never critisize the Quran, because:
1. It's written in Arabic and you don't speak Arabic.
2. Any translation is not a perfect representation.
3. As a non-Muslim you can't really understand anything Muslim.

 

[JohnClay]

......Discerningetween good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard: and that standard is the perfect nature of God. God is not subject to morality ... He is the source and benchmark for it. Nor is morality subject to change, since God’s perfect nature is eternal and unchanging.....

Is Deuteronomy 20 still moral? What about Numbers 15:32-36?

 

[eleos1954]

Is Deuteronomy 20 still moral? What about Numbers 15:32-36?

Deuteronomy 20

4For the LORD your God is He who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.”

Numbers 15:32-36 - Disobedience

Gods people are not excluded from judgement of disobedience.

This is the plight of Israel in the bible ... falling in and out of disobedience with the Lord.

and ... also with many of us within the faith today .... same problem ... falling in and out of obedience to the Lord.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law

What is repentance? Being sorry for transgressing His law and to turn from transgressing His law.

Mankind being in a fallen state it is impossible for one to do this perfectly ... otherwise would be no need for Jesus.

So there yeah there are stark examples in the bible of His judgements, also stark examples of His mercy.

So .. in Numbers ... this person violated the 4th commandment ... and God Commanded the man to be put to death and He upheld His moral law.

Romans 9:18
New International Version
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Personally ... I take this as how and when God decides whether He shows mercy or shows judgement is none of our (mankind's) business ... and is beyond our understanding.

Only He knows ALL things ... we do not. He has supreme authority over all of creation and how and when He acts is known only by Him and who are we (mankind) to question it?

He pretty well makes that point clear in talking with Job.

 

[BigV]

What is sin? Transgression of the Law

Jesus was a sinner then. He did not follow the Law. In fact, he clearly ignored at least the dietary provisions. Jesus was not a fan of observing the Sabbaths either, where as he was a quite a stickler to the rules in the Old Testament.

 

[JohnClay]

Deuteronomy 20

4For the LORD your God is He who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.

I meant genocide and killing all of the animals:
"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you"

....So .. in Numbers ... this person violated the 4th commandment ... and God Commanded the man to be put to death and He upheld His moral law.

You said earlier:

......Discerning between good and evil is possible only in reference to a single, unchanging standard: and that standard is the perfect nature of God. God is not subject to morality ... He is the source and benchmark for it. Nor is morality subject to change, since God’s perfect nature is eternal and unchanging.....

Yet working on the sabbath no longer requires the death penalty... so it seems morality has changed.

 

[eleos1954]

I meant genocide and killing all of the animals:
"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you"



You said earlier:

Yet working on the sabbath no longer requires the death penalty... so it seems morality has changed.

In the verse you brought forth yes He commanded that man to be killed. His moral laws (10 commandments) do not change. There are also instances where people violated the sabbath and were not killed. As stated before sometimes He shows mercy ... sometimes not ... and it's none of our business.

Largest genocide in history - God Himself destroyed almost everything in the flood, including many animals .... it's His creation ... He can do and will do what He wants with it.

 

[JohnClay]

....In the verse you brought forth yes He commanded that man to be killed. His moral laws (10 commandments) do not change. There are also instances where people violated the sabbath and were not killed. As stated before sometimes He shows mercy ... sometimes not ... and it's none of our business....

These days many people and animals work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) - it seems to me the moral law regarding the sabbath is ignored.

 

[eleos1954]

Look at my history. In 2007 or so I registered as a Baptist. I used to be a fundamentalist.

Btw, you should also know that your 'defense' of the Scriptures is on a par with a Muslim. You can never critisize the Quran, because:
1. It's written in Arabic and you don't speak Arabic.
2. Any translation is not a perfect representation.
3. As a non-Muslim you can't really understand anything Muslim.

Sorry to hear you have walked away from the christian faith.

There are many beliefs out in the world ... people put forth what they believe ... and that's what I do (and many others) ... put forth what I/they believe according to what I've studied out in the Holy Bible.

What a person believes is up to them.

I do find other beliefs interesting ... but don't necessarily agree with them.

Some christian teachings/principles may ... or may not cross over into other belief systems.

According to Gods Holy Word ... it is all about Jesus being crucified and Him the only way to salvation and He is the authority over everything.

and no ... I wouldn't study the Quran because it doesn't teach Jesus being the son of God, which of course is the foundation of Christianity.

 

[eleos1954]

These days many people and animals work on the sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) - it seems to me the moral law regarding the sabbath is ignored.

You are correct many ignore it ... the fact that they do ignore it does not change Gods moral law.

NOTE: Those who want to make comment ... have discussion regarding the sabbath, please open a thread on it ... as otherwise the OP of this thread goes of topic. Thanks.