Hell

[anx66]

Can I ask will God love those people who go to hell? I take it the answer is no.

 

[eleos1954]

Can I ask will God love those people who go to hell? I take it the answer is no.

There are several different beliefs what hell is within christianity ... so ... let's term it another way ...
those that are lost (will not receive eternal life) and those who are saved (will receive eternal life)

God loves all mankind. He created all His intelligent beings with freewill ... each decides how they want to live. God has a government, laws, because without laws and people willfully abiding by them ... then there is chaos (such as we see in our world).

God offers everyone the opportunity to receive eternal life through His son Jesus ... one can be forgiven for anything they have done ... and choose to live differently and He will help one overcome their transgressions against His law and they will receive eternal life with Him.

It not ... then no ... they will not receive eternal life ... but was due to their own choice(s).

Once a person passes from life on earth .... there is not a second chance to change their choice(s).

Really ... it is about love. One can not force one to love another, we know this, God knows this ... true love can only be fully accomplished by choice ... and He offers this choice to everyone ... because He loves them.

He respects people's freewill to choose ... even if their choices mean they will forfeit eternal life with Him.

 

[anx66]

So, some people believe in a literal place of punishment and some don't. Some people believe there is eternal torture, some believe there is temporary torture, some believe there is no torture, but a lesser torment, and some believe in destruction of the body and soul at the judgement, sort of erasing of your being. So, how do I determine what is the truth?

I'll clarify my question, after people have been judged, will he still love them, or will his love for them end?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can I ask will God love those people who go to hell? I take it the answer is no.

"Also I say that even those who are scourged in hell are tormented with the scourgings of love. Scourgings for love's sake, namely of those who perceive that they have sinned against love, are more hard and bitter than tortures through fear. The suffering which takes hold of the heart through sinning against love is more acute than any other torture. It is evil for a man to think that the sinners in hell are destitute of love for the Creator. For love is a child of true knowledge such as is professed to be given to all people. Love works with its force in a double way. It tortures those who have sinned as happens also in the world between friends. And it gives delight to those who have kept its decrees. Thus it is also in hell. I say that the hard tortures are grief for love. The inhabitants of heaven, however, make drunk their soul with the delight of love." - St. Isaac the Syrian, Mystical Treatises (aka Ascetical Homilies) translated by A. J. Wensink, p136

St. Isaac was a 7th century Syriac theologian, bishop of Nineveh. His position, as from the above, is that the heaven and hell are not different places. They are, in a sense, the same place. Insofar as "place" has any meaning here as far as these terms are concerned. All ultimately enter into God's presence, and thus all experience the full measure of God's unconditional love.

God does not withhold His love from anyone. So what makes heaven heavenly and what makes hell hellish isn't that in one we experience love and in the other we are deprived of it; but rather it is our disposition toward God. For the wicked who has despised love, God's love is like a torture--in a way similar to how in this life when we betray a friend we experience the remorse and weight of our betrayal. It is not a torture because it is torturous, rather the anguish comes from within--arising from the guilt and turmoil of having betrayed love.

God's love is impartial, given freely, for all--and there's nothing anyone can ever do to make God stop loving them. But in Isaac's view (which is still the predominant view among the Orthodox even today) those who despise God's love, who insist on themselves, and who scorn God will experience hell through their own inner turmoil.

In his work The Great Divorce C.S Lewis writes (in the voice of a fictionalized version of George McDonald),

"The whole difficulty of understanding Hell is that the thing to be understood is so nearly Nothing. But ye'll have had experiences... it begins with a grumbling mood, and yourself still distinct from it: perhaps criticising it. And yourself, in a dark hour, may will that mood, embrace it. Ye can repent and come out of it again. But there may come a day when you can do that no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticise the mood, nor even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself going on forever like a machine."

And in God in the Dock Lewis writes,

"It's not a question of God 'sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."

For Lewis hell is, essentially, a kind of existence we ultimately opt for ourselves in which we have denied everything that makes us good and human.

For most Christians we don't believe God sends anyone to hell. Rather, hell is a personal choice some people make for themselves. And as to what hell actually is--well that's a big question. There's simply no definitive Christian response to that.

Some argue that hell is a separation from God, and therefore they are deprived of God; and yet the Psalmist says, "If I make my bed in hell [she'ol], You are there" (Psalm 139:8). God is everywhere, and God's love is inescapable.

And so hell, however nebulous an idea it is, does not boil down to some place of punishment where bad people go, or where those who had the wrong religion go; but is rather an existence of choice where, nevertheless, not even "here" is God's kindness and mercy avoidable.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, some people believe in a literal place of punishment and some don't. Some people believe there is eternal torture, some believe there is temporary torture, some believe there is no torture, but a lesser torment, and some believe in destruction of the body and soul at the judgement, sort of erasing of your being. So, how do I determine what is the truth?

There has simply never been a definitive Christian position on the subject of hell. So if you're hoping to figure out for yourself what is the whole truth on the matter of hell and rule out all other possibilities dogmatically, then frankly you're probably out of luck.

-CryptoLUtheran

 

[SkyWriting]

Can I ask will God love those people who go to hell? I take it the answer is no.

Yes he did.

While we were still sinners even.
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[jayem]

Not to be flippant, but Hell really exists. I've been there. It's a roadside tourist attraction in the West Bay region of Grand Cayman Island. It was named for some jagged limestone formations in the area that someone thought resembled flames.

Apart from the geology, the only other thing there is a gift shop and post office. Where you can send post cards to friends and family that are truly postmarked from Hell.

Hell is an infernally kitschy tourist trap. But I can recommend the locally made rum cake. Very tasty, though expensive.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Saying that it is God's love that punishes us in hell, or that hell is produced by being unable to stand the presence of God's love sounds like nothing so much as an attempt to win an argument by using words to mean whatever you want them to mean.

It is not loving behaviour to deliberately hurt someone you care for, or to stand by and see them hurt.

 

[holo]

He respects people's freewill to choose ... even if their choices mean they will forfeit eternal life with Him.

I try to imagine God and the angels looking down on the screaming souls in hell three hundred billions years after the end of the universe: "I mean OK, this whole eternal torture thing kinda sucks, but hey, at least they got to have a free will, and that's what really matters."

 

[eleos1954]

I try to imagine God and the angels looking down on the screaming souls in hell three hundred billions years after the end of the universe: "I mean OK, this whole eternal torture thing kinda sucks, but hey, at least they got to have a free will, and that's what really matters."

God doesn't torture people for eternity ... that is a mis teaching by some ... and for those who do believe that (I do not) ... you make some good points they might like to consider ;o)

 

[dlamberth]

Can I ask will God love those people who go to hell? I take it the answer is no.

I'm so glad to be freed from any Hell concepts and stuff like that. So very glad!!

 

[holo]

God doesn't torture people for eternity ... that is a mis teaching by some ... and for those who do believe that (I do not) ... you make some good points they might like to consider ;o)

That's true, and I'm very glad that not all Christians believe that. But I think the point stands even without eternal suffering. Replace hell with Auschwitz in my example. If subjecting people to that kind of treatment because free will is so valuable, then I have no reason to assume that God is "good", or what "good" and "bad" would even mean.

Which relates to a broader question: why believe that God is good, anyway? Reading the bible, unless I first assume that God is good no matter what, he certainly doesn't strike me as a good or moral person in any way I can relate to.

 

[JohnClay]

I think it makes a huge difference whether the unsaved go to hell for a limited amount of time (e.g. 1000 years) vs them being there eternally (infinitely worse)

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I think it makes a huge difference whether the unsaved go to hell for a limited amount of time (e.g. 1000 years) vs them being there eternally (infinitely worse)

The whole thing makes a lot more sense if you consider that it was thought up by a primitive people who knew a lot less about numbers than us. Does it even have meaning to say that a person will be in hell for an infinite amount of time? How would they exist? Wouldn't their personality have just vanished by then? Frankly, if hell is as nasty as is commonly believed, how long would it take for your personality, your personhood to be simply annihilated?

And second, putting someone to torture for a day would seem appallingly barbaric. For a thousand years?

 

[eleos1954]

That's true, and I'm very glad that not all Christians believe that. But I think the point stands even without eternal suffering. Replace hell with Auschwitz in my example. If subjecting people to that kind of treatment because free will is so valuable, then I have no reason to assume that God is "good", or what "good" and "bad" would even mean.

Which relates to a broader question: why believe that God is good, anyway? Reading the bible, unless I first assume that God is good no matter what, he certainly doesn't strike me as a good or moral person in any way I can relate to.

well ... we do see "good" and "bad" in the world ... and ... there are wars. Auschwitz is certainly an example of the bad ... and war insued to end those evil doings. Auschwitz was not about freewill ... it was due to the government of totalitarianism which certainly does not promote free will.

The principles of how we are to treat one another biblically are good principles ... but the majority of mankind does not live by them.

God has laws ... good laws that IF obeyed would produce peace... without laws there is lawlessness ... and laws are only effective if people obey them.

So, biblically His laws are stated and people are made aware of them ... and the choice to obey them is ... by freewill ... the question is are His laws good? ... and who wants to live by them for eternity?

Biblically we know the war has been won ... but ... until the Lord returns all will experience battles (atrocities) of many kinds ... and we do.

One day God will totally end the war and at that time gather up all the survivors (those who accepted Christ) and the "Auschwitz" syndrome and all pain and all suffering will end ... for eternity ... and His perfect government will be established and the new earth He createds will be of people who will naturally live according to those laws.

Right now .... mankind's' natural tendency is to violate Gods laws (christian or otherwise).

That tendency will be changed when the Lord returns ... that is ... we will naturally obey His laws ... it will not take any effort.

Don't judge God by what you see now on earth ... what we see and experience now (atrocities) are the result of mankind being in charge of the world ... which we see throughout history (and today) and going forward ... mankind is incapable of ruling over others (governments) without violence of some kind.

So, how one lives in this world now is up to (starts with) the individual ... choose to press forward according to the good laws of God now .... or not ... that is the freedom of choice we have until the Lord returns.

When one violates law ... there is to be justice ... and the final justice of the Lord will be for eternity and unlike mankind ... it will be 100% effective with the final outcome being perfect peace for eternity.

Please continue to read the Word of God and may He bring you understanding about His true character and not what you see in mankind and applying mankind's character to God. Amen.

 

[holo]

well ... we do see "good" and "bad" in the world ... and ... there are wars. Auschwitz is certainly an example of the bad ... and war insued to end those evil doings. Auschwitz was not about freewill ... it was due to the government of totalitarianism which certainly does not promote free will.

Sure, but the Christian argument is God had to allow Auschwitz to happen because free will is so valuable. Personally, I really don't see how it's more important that people have free will, than to stop genocide. But then again, God himself has ordered genocide in the bible, so...

That tendency will be changed when the Lord returns ... that is ... we will naturally obey His laws ... it will not take any effort.

So we will no longer have free will then?

 

[drich0150]

So, some people believe in a literal place of punishment and some don't. Some people believe there is eternal torture, some believe there is temporary torture, some believe there is no torture, but a lesser torment, and some believe in destruction of the body and soul at the judgement, sort of erasing of your being. So, how do I determine what is the truth?

I'll clarify my question, after people have been judged, will he still love them, or will his love for them end?

The short answer is if you believe in the God of the bible then the hell described by Christ in the bible (as apposed to the hell described by various denominational beliefs) will be your guide.

No way around it if you want to know the truth for yourself you will have to read and study the bible to find the truth.. and as you mature and you grow in the faith your understanding will also mature.

For instance everything you observed about what people believe about hell is right to one degree or another at one point or another under specific conditions.

1) The bible never says the souls of man will burn and be tormented forever. Never once anywhere in scripture does the bible say this.

2) it does however say Hell is the second death of the body and soul.

3) the bible does say Hell is for ever the torment in hell is without ceasing and only one creature and his inner circle was ever slated for this experience.

4) the rest of us will be consumed by Hell fire.

Now I personally think Our time in Hell greatly depends on the evil we were apart of and how long it takes us to truly accept our sin for what it was. God's love comes in the way of mercy/not burning forever as satan is slated to.

 

[eleos1954]

Sure, but the Christian argument is God had to allow Auschwitz to happen because free will is so valuable. Personally, I really don't see how it's more important that people have free will, than to stop genocide. But then again, God himself has ordered genocide in the bible, so...

So we will no longer have free will then?

but the Christian argument is God had to allow Auschwitz

Have no idea who is presenting this argument to you ... but using that atrocity in relationship of being because free will is so valuable is just non-sense.

That atrocity happened due to the government in charge at the time ... like I said ... it has been proven over and over throughout history ... it is impossible for mankind to rule without violence and corruption. IMPOSSIBLE!

Mankind has been rebelling against the law of God since the fall of Adam & Eve. There are consequences for breaking laws. As far as "genocide" in the bible commanded by God ... a couple reasons ... those commanded to be destroyed were groups/tribes of people that were committing atrocities against other people and/or a lot of times against Gods people. IF Gods people were to be destroyed (back then) then the lineage from which Jesus would come from would have been destroyed. Yes ... examples of Gods judgement ... and yes in some cases ... examples of His final judgement with some.

Basically, my friend, ALL have transgressed Gods laws and we all deserve to be destroyed ... but God shows His love for mankind by sending His son Jesus (who never transgressed Gods law) to pay our debt of our transgressions and provides the only way to be reconciled with God and to eventually live in harmony with each other and with God Himself and the only way that happens is through Jesus ... because He was perfect in every way.

So we will no longer have free will then?

Yes .... the difference will be that our natural will ..... the choices we make will always be perfect ones.

We were originally created perfect in the image of God and had His perfect character (before sin entered the world) ... and that will be the "state" we are restored to.

There will be no sin (transgression of Gods law) whatsoever.

Whereas .. as we are in our current "state" it is natural for us to sin .... when we are changed (for eternity) when the Lord returns ... our current natural "state" will be not to sin.

and ... those who have accepted Jesus are giving Him permission to help change them now (over their current earthly life) and also saying yes ... when you return change me completely so I can live in a perfect world with you for eternity.

So that is the freewill choice that is before everyone now and until one either dies our earthly death or until He returns. Either is our final choice for eternity. Exist with God for eternity or cease to exist forever.

The OT is largely about the disobedient history of mankind and consequences of man-kinds choices and yes sometimes Gods judgement that did include destruction.

I would encourage you to read about Jesus in the NT (who is God) and get to know His character ... the loving side of God. He gave His life for us and provided the way to experience eternal life with Him for eternity. That is we will one day be like Him.

1 John 3:10
New International Version
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Go read the book 1 John in it's entirety in the new testament ;o)

If one studies the life of Jesus and gets to know Him through how He lived His life and then says ... no I wouldn't be happy living that life ... then they would not be happy living in the new world He will create. If one does not recognize their own character as being severely flawed and does not want Jesus to help them to change their thinking and actions now ... then .... one will not receive eternal life and will be destroyed to never exist again.

 

[JohnClay]

The whole thing makes a lot more sense if you consider that it was thought up by a primitive people who knew a lot less about numbers than us....

Well remember the duration of heaven is also infinite.

... putting someone to torture for a day would seem appallingly barbaric. For a thousand years?

An eternity is infinitely worse yet God is said to be perfectly holy, just and loving.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Well remember the duration of heaven is also infinite.

That raises a whole load of problems as well. How does the human personality endure an infinity of happiness any more than an infinity of anything else? Again, this was all the product of people who didn't really think it through because they were primitive, and when Christians today try to make sense of heaven or hell, they run into considerable difficulties.

An eternity is infinitely worse yet God is said to be perfectly holy, just and loving.

Sounds like a contradiction to me. If I believe God existed, I would certainly be worried by that.