Hell

[Lazarus Short]

hundreds of testimonials of ppl who have seen hell
www.sawhell.com

Our faith should be based on the Bible, not dreams, visions and NDE's. Prove it from the Bible first. If your Hell was real, would the Bible not read very differently? It all seems to be theo-illogical trickery to me.

 

[Galatea]

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

(Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15)

That would mean God hates everyone, then. We are all fools and all workers of iniquity. If you think we are not, read Romans 3: 10-12 (actually, the whole chapter) "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one."
There are many verses in the Old Testament about God destroying the wicked, we're all wicked- that's why we need Christ. Look who wrote the psalm- David. He was foolish in taking another man's wife and bringing judgment onto himself and his family. He was iniquitous by sending Uriah to his death- yet God forgave him. I know David is in Paradise, not because he was a good little boy, but because he repented and returned to God every time he sinned.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

That would mean God hates everyone, then. We are all fools and all workers of iniquity. If you think we are not, read Romans 3: 10-12 (actually, the whole chapter) "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no not one."
There are many verses in the Old Testament about God destroying the wicked, we're all wicked- that's why we need Christ. Look who wrote the psalm- David. He was foolish in taking another man's wife and bringing judgment onto himself and his family. He was iniquitous by sending Uriah to his death- yet God forgave him. I know David is in Paradise, not because he was a good little boy, but because he repented and returned to God every time he sinned.

God hates everyone, we are all His enemies. God’s love is manifest in that he forgives those He hates and treats them with love

 

[toLiJC]

What I mean is this, I believe in the Bible- that it is the inerrant word of God. I know that Hell was prepared for Satan and the Fallen Angels. I know that God does not desire ANY to perish II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." And that human souls only go to Hell because of rejecting Christ- not for sin at all.

What my wonder is this: we have finite minds and limited understanding. I know the Bible refers to Hell as fire. But I have been wondering if Hell is more of a separation from everything and being condemned to nothingness, and perhaps it is described as fire because we can't comprehend what separation from God REALLY is. I've been thinking about God as THE ENERGY- the Sound, the Word, the Light, the I AM and what the I AM is. He is everything, so I am wondering if Hell is nothing- the absence of everything. I find this much more frightening than a literal fiery Hell- to be separated from Everything and into Nothing.

this sounds as if influenced by indic or indic-like esoteric doctrines - by the way, that sound ("aum") comes from a devilish spirit, and that light (of sat-cit-ananda) is also not of the true God

what i know from the true One about "hell" is that the biblical "death" is the main spirit of deterioration, the "hell" is the other "death" i.e. the second manifestation of deterioration - they are both unsouled spirits and manifestations of the "darkness", but as for the difference between them, it is not easy to be explained, nor is it worth it to do it, because it doesn't pay to know all those secrets of the "darkness" that are so hard to be understood

the other thing is the "lake of fire" which is also described as a possible place of punishment for the souls of those who had caused harm/suffering to their neighbor before the last day, where they can be punished in exactly the same way they caused harm/suffering to their neighbor while still living in this world

Blessings

 

[Galatea]

God hates everyone, we are all His enemies. God’s love is manifest in that he forgives those He hates and treats them with love

Not so, John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth on Him, should not perish but have everlasting life." Probably the most well known verse in the faith. What is love? It is expressed in these verses Romans 5:7-8 (the whole chapter is beautiful, though) "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth His LOVE toward us, in that, while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us."

We are only enemies outside of Christ, once in Christ- we are reconciled in Him. The thing is, God loves EVERYONE, even His enemies. I know it is trite, but true. God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. I'm not sure how you could treat someone you hate with love.

 

[Galatea]

this sounds as if influenced by indic or indic-like esoteric doctrines - by the way, that sound ("aum") comes from a devilish spirit, and that light (of sat-cit-ananda) is also not of the true God

what i know from the true One is that the biblical "death" is the main spirit of deterioration, the "hell" is the other "death" i.e. the second manifestation of deterioration - they are both unsouled spirits and manifestations of the "darkness", but as for the difference between them, it is not easy to be explained, nor is it worth it to do it, because it doesn't pay to know all those secrets of the "darkness" that are so hard to be understood

the other thing is the "lake of fire" which is also described as a possible place of punishment for the souls of those who had caused harm/suffering to their neighbor before the last day, where they can be punished in exactly the same way they caused harm/suffering to their neighbor while still living in this world

Blessings

I am feeling my way around with Light and Sound being God. I know He is a Spirit and the I AM. This is all just speculation on my part and not necessarily true. I was wondering if anyone here had some similar ideas about God and the nature of what the darkness is. I surely don't mean to be heretical or irreverent.

The part you wrote about the lake of fire being a punishment is not what I think of Christianity, but sounds like Karma, to me. Hell was never intended for man- but is the result of denying Christ. That is why I think of a separation rather than a literal fire. Maybe a separation from God would not sound so horrible to people who are not saved and do not love Christ- but to me, it would be worse.

 

[victorinus]

God hates everyone,

do you hate everyone?

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

do you hate everyone?

victorinus, you quoted me out of context. You ought to learn not to jump quickly to conclusions. Read first, then reply.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

I am feeling my way around with Light and Sound being God. I know He is a Spirit and the I AM. This is all just speculation on my part and not necessarily true. I was wondering if anyone here had some similar ideas about God and the nature of what the darkness is. I surely don't mean to be heretical or irreverent.

The part you wrote about the lake of fire being a punishment is not what I think of Christianity, but sounds like Karma, to me. Hell was never intended for man- but is the result of denying Christ. That is why I think of a separation rather than a literal fire. Maybe a separation from God would not sound so horrible to people who are not saved and do not love Christ- but to me, it would be worse.

It doesn't really matter what you think about Christianity. Your opinions are irrelevant and not important to anybody.
You need to understand that there is a right and a wrong a true and a false if you are not in the truth then you are deceived by the devil.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

do you hate everyone?

No. Just lovers of sin, blasphemers, Catholics, and the wicked.
Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5; Hosea 9:15; Malichi 1:2

 

[Galatea]

It doesn't really matter what you think about Christianity. Your opinions are irrelevant and not important to anybody

That's real friendly. You're right- it ultimately doesn't matter what I think, but what the Bible says. That's why I love my faith, it doesn't rest on me. I do believe God gives us a desire to know more and speculate, sort of like in the Middle Ages when the theologians debated how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Apparently a few people do not think my opinions are entirely irrelevant, or they would not post. My thoughts may not be important to anyone human, but they are immeasurably important to God, since He is my Father, he cares about what I think and the questions I have, and how I want to love Him more.

 

[victorinus]

victorinus, you quoted me out of context. You ought to learn not to jump quickly to conclusions. Read first, then reply.

when I see -
"God hates everyone"
-I stop reading

 

[victorinus]

No. Just lovers of sin, blasphemers, Catholics, and the wicked.

what about haters?

 

[smithed64]

Hell was not created for people. It was created for Satan and the fallen angels. People do not go to Hell for sinning. If that were the case, everyone would go to Hell. People only go to Hell for rejecting Christ. That is it, no other reason. I don't see Hell as punishment for sin, but as separation from God because people refuse to accept Him on His terms, through the sacrifice of Christ.

Please show me the scripture where it says this?

 

[smithed64]

What was Jesus really telling people when He warned of Gehenna? I maintain that He was contrasting two life choices:

1. Lose a body part, avoid the sin that body part might lead you to, and live a good life. Of course, it might be something besides a body part, such as lust, a love for strong drink, greed, etc .

2. Keep the body part (or tendency to evil), sin, commit crime, risk being judged by the Law and possibly being executed and having your body burned with the rubbish, and missing a decent burial. Eternal conscious torment was not mentioned...

I can't see any reason to insert "Hell" into what Jesus was saying, and anyway, Gehenna (for all of Der Alter's objections) was/is a place in the real world, while Hell is metaphysical.

Yes, Hell is mentioned in the Book, but there are many times it could have been mentioned and was not. Further, most (if not all) uses of the word "Hell" are mistranslations of other, less loaded, words. As for sin, God tells us in His Word that when you die, you are freed from sin (Romans 6:7).

Denying may not make it go away, but I just finished a 208-page survey of the use of Hell in the KJV, which proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that "Hell" is theological trickery.

If Hell is real, then Jesus' mission to save His people from their sins has failed. But Jesus does not fail.

So, your 208 page survey, who did you survey?

Christ spoke of Hell, yes he used a metaphor to help people to understand what happens to those who sin and don't repent.
Hell is real. or Jesus is a liar.
Which we know that not to be right. For He is God and He can't lie.

 

[Lazarus Short]

So, your 208 page survey, who did you survey?

Christ spoke of Hell, yes he used a metaphor to help people to understand what happens to those who sin and don't repent.
Hell is real. or Jesus is a liar.
Which we know that not to be right. For He is God and He can't lie.

My survey was of the entire Bible, every book, every chapter, every verse - to see and settle for myself a Question which came into my mind many years ago: Where did our ideas of Hell come from?

Post survey, I concluded that Hell is a theological trick by way of mistranslation. It is not a metaphor - Hell is a word from the ancient, pagan languages of northern Europe, inserted into the text of Scripture during the Middle ages. Check an Oxford English Dictionary if you doubt this. I could not even find any connection in the Bible between Hell and the Devil.

"Hell is real. or Jesus is a liar."? OTOH, if Hell is real, Jesus has failed in His mission to save His people from their sins. But Jesus does not fail. No, He cannot lie, therefore confirming theological trickery - words have been put into His mouth by those who mishandled Scripture. They will answer to God.

 

[smithed64]

My survey was of the entire Bible, every book, every chapter, every verse - to see and settle for myself a Question which came into my mind many years ago: Where did our ideas of Hell come from?

Post survey, I concluded that Hell is a theological trick by way of mistranslation. It is not a metaphor - Hell is a word from the ancient, pagan languages of northern Europe, inserted into the text of Scripture during the Middle ages. Check an Oxford English Dictionary if you doubt this. I could not even find any connection in the Bible between Hell and the Devil.

"Hell is real. or Jesus is a liar."? OTOH, if Hell is real, Jesus has failed in His mission to save His people from their sins. But Jesus does not fail. No, He cannot lie, therefore confirming theological trickery - words have been put into His mouth by those who mishandled Scripture. They will answer to God.

Don't you think that God, Himself would have noticed this so called trickery?
Why would He preach against false prophets, which this is what your declaring, that there is a false teaching in the Bible about Hell, Why would God let this continue?
Trickery denotes lying. And as you agreed, God doesn't lie. The Word is inspired by God, for reproof, teaching, guiding us in the way of God.
You can't say, the bible is both false and true at the same time and the same instance...that's a logical fallacy. Because Truth cannot contradict itself.

I fear your trying to come up with your own version, your not a lone. Many people don't like the idea of there being a Hell. But it's there, it's real. And those who sin and don't repent of their sins and place their trust in Jesus. And die in their sins. Will be judged by God and sent to Hell. Its scripture. It's the truth.

Plus, you should not come to God, in fear of Hell. But because of what He did for you. He came down in the form of a man, Died on the cross, took our sins to the cross, yet He was innocent and sinless. He shed His blood for us, to cleanse us from our sins and to save us from facing God, who is justifiably angry at our sins against Him. The Word tells us, wo to the man in the hands of an Angry God. It tells us, not to fear what people can do to our bodies, but fear the one who can send your soul to Hell.
Jesus Died for us, He took our place and faced the wrath of God on that cross. So that we could repent and place our trust in Him. So that we didn't have to face that wrath, which you will do, if you go before God with sin in you.

 

[sculleywr]

I have been thinking a lot about sound and light lately. I have been thinking of Hell as an absence of sound and light, being cast into the outer darkness without God. Just read the first few verses of John about in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Darkness is the absence of light, He is the Light and the Sound. I have been thinking for years that total separation from God would be much worse as a Hell than a literal fire. Torment would be without Christ, the absence of the Light and Sound.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm percolating some theories here. I believe the Bible is the inherent Word of God, but I don't know if we could really comprehend what Hell is- total annhilation of the soul (absence of sound and light) and perhaps describing it as fire is the only way himans can begin to understand the continuous torture of being without God. I think about the lines in the Bible about being cast into the outer darkness.

The obvious question: how can one ever be separate from He Who is everywhere present and filling all things?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Don't you think that God, Himself would have noticed this so called trickery?
Why would He preach against false prophets, which this is what your declaring, that there is a false teaching in the Bible about Hell, Why would God let this continue?
Trickery denotes lying. And as you agreed, God doesn't lie. The Word is inspired by God, for reproof, teaching, guiding us in the way of God.
You can't say, the bible is both false and true at the same time and the same instance...that's a logical fallacy. Because Truth cannot contradict itself.

I fear your trying to come up with your own version, your not a lone. Many people don't like the idea of there being a Hell. But it's there, it's real. And those who sin and don't repent of their sins and place their trust in Jesus. And die in their sins. Will be judged by God and sent to Hell. Its scripture. It's the truth.

Plus, you should not come to God, in fear of Hell. But because of what He did for you. He came down in the form of a man, Died on the cross, took our sins to the cross, yet He was innocent and sinless. He shed His blood for us, to cleanse us from our sins and to save us from facing God, who is justifiably angry at our sins against Him. The Word tells us, wo to the man in the hands of an Angry God. It tells us, not to fear what people can do to our bodies, but fear the one who can send your soul to Hell.
Jesus Died for us, He took our place and faced the wrath of God on that cross. So that we could repent and place our trust in Him. So that we didn't have to face that wrath, which you will do, if you go before God with sin in you.

Clever reply! I can only answer that I believe that God's Word was perfect in the original autographs, but we have copies of copies, and that's not so bad, for the Bible is the best preserved of all documents from antiquity, and by a good margin. OTOH, most of us read said Bible in translation, and therein lies the problem. The mindset of the translator should not affect the choices of words in translating, but it seems to have done so. In case you haven't noticed, I dug into the meanings of the few words from which "Hell" is translated. They are:

sheol

hades

Gehenna

Tartarus.

None of these imply a place of eternal, conscious torment, two of them come from pagan languages, and one of them is used once. That's NOT a firm foundation for the doctrine of Hell. I am not saying God lies, or that the Bible contains lies (except the lies of men and the Devil). I am not after making a new version, for versions already exist which do not contain the word "Hell."

We will not be judged by God and sent to Hell. Part of Damnationism is making things into Hell which are not Hell. Some are sent into the Lake of Fire, and I think this is what you are thinking about, but your KJV tells you that Death and Hell are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. They are not the same thing, and I think the Damnationists are not rightly dividing the Word of God.

 

[John Hyperspace]

As I'm lead to understand, "darkness" is figurative of "being without understanding" and subsequently, "without faith, hope and love" being "alienated from": Matthew 4:16, Ephesians 2:12: that is to be "without light" having no "lamp to their feet" no "guide": to be in "darkness" is to be "spiritually blind": Psalms 82:5, Ecclesiastes 2:14

Now, John is especially sure to speak of this in relation to the covenant of grace, and "unfeigned love" of the brethren: 1 John 1:6, 1 John 2:9, 1 John 2:11

So, looking at the passages about "outer darkness" and note that this "thrusting out" is not happening to people outside of the covenant, it is happening to people inside the covenant: the "profitless servant" is being thrust out: Matthew 8:11-12, Matthew 22:11-13, Matthew 25:30

Notice Matthew 8:11 is parallel to Luke 13:28: this "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is being caused by being rejected and expelled from the kingdom that they thought they were a part of, but were not, and were found in "offence": Matthew 13:41-42: and this "offence" is that their love is feigned: Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6 but those in "light" have an "unfeigned love": 1 Peter 1:22, 2 Corinthians 6:6 which is counterpart to "unfeigned faith": 1 Timothy 1:5, 2 Timothy 1:5

So what we have here are people who "honor the Lord with their lips" but whose hearts "are far from": such as this "Diotrephes": 3 John 1:9-11: which people are "rooted out" Matthew 5:13 and "cast out of the kingdom" and into "the nations": thus they are not counted "worthy": 2 Thessalonians 1:5: and this "expulsion" is the same as a being "found naked" and their "shame" is "exposed" before all: Revelation 16:15

The example being the church of Laodecia: Revelation 3:17-18: as prime for being "cast out" and having the candlestick "removed from its place": and when your "candelstick" is removed, then there is no giving of light anymore, as being "cut off" from the kingdom. Of the kingdom Jesus said: Matthew 5:14: and so only those in the kingdom are "light" to the world; and those that are "thrust out" go to join the people that are not "light" to the world; and such as to be numbered among the "outer darkness" found in those outside the kingdom of God.

None of this darkness and fire is taken literally, but is understood as the bible uses the words, and not as men attempt to understand the words according to their own fleshly, earthly understanding. Basically, when the "sons of God" are manifested to the world: Romans 8:19: there will be a great multitude of people professing to be inside the kingdom, or, the covenant of grace, who are not manifested as the children of God. Thus, this failure is made manifest to all, and this causes their "shame" and "weeping" and "gnashing" and "torment" and "casting into darkness" when the truth is revealed in such a way that many who made their boast in God, were found to be "feigning" their faith and love, and are "exposed" in the sight of those, outside of the covenant: this is what the saying "depart from Me, I never knew you" is meaning. They thought they were known of Him, but were not. Thus the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and such things.

But trying to understand the spiritual concepts taught by the Word of God, as literal, is always going to end up missing the mark of the truth, and is going to end up creating silly pictures of things that do not literally happen or exist, and actually do harm to others in that, now the mind of the hearer becomes filled which such silly pictures; and often in cases like "fire" causing terribley unethical pictures of God to be put into the mind of the hearer. The people of Galilee did not actually sit in literal "darkness" (Matthew 4:15-16), the church is not actually a literal "light" (Matthew 5:14), and Jesus did not come to send literal fire in the earth (Luke 12:49); to teach others these words as literal creates silly pictures, and this holds true for teaching these concepts literally. When doing so, true religion of the spirit becomes a silly picturing of the nonsensical religion of the world; and it hinders people from entering into the understanding of the kingdom of heaven: Luke 11:52.