Galatea

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I have been thinking a lot about sound and light lately. I have been thinking of Hell as an absence of sound and light, being cast into the outer darkness without God. Just read the first few verses of John about in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Darkness is the absence of light, He is the Light and the Sound. I have been thinking for years that total separation from God would be much worse as a Hell than a literal fire. Torment would be without Christ, the absence of the Light and Sound.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm percolating some theories here. I believe the Bible is the inherent Word of God, but I don't know if we could really comprehend what Hell is- total annhilation of the soul (absence of sound and light) and perhaps describing it as fire is the only way himans can begin to understand the continuous torture of being without God. I think about the lines in the Bible about being cast into the outer darkness.
 
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eartheart

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Someone once told me about how demons cannot feel for example, sand between the toes, grass etc. That they are completely cut off from Gods material creation, even smell, they are in league with the devil and against the material world. My guess is that your right, they thrive solely on negative energy and nothing else. Pure evil
 
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Lazarus Short

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My research found that Hell, hellfire and all that, came from various pagan religions. As for Outer Darkness, we can make theories all day, but the Bible tells us little:

it is outside
it is dark
people weep there
people gnash their teeth there
it represents a loss of status.

We are not told that being given the bum's rush into Outer Darkness is forever.
 
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smithed64

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we can't be separated from God just as you can't separate your little finger
-
it will die

If you sin, you are separated from God. He won't tolerate sin, he hates it.
And your right, sin leads to death and Hell.
 
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victorinus

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If you sin, you are separated from God. He won't tolerate sin, he hates it.
And your right, sin leads to death and Hell.
sin is something that we do
-and-
we all do it
-
it is not what we are
-and-
God loves the sinner
 
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eartheart

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Its scary to think about the moment of death for someone of mass wealth who has a hard time separating from their bodies or ego, I believe the ego can become a dragon you must face, those who cannot let go are doomed to remain in despairing limbo for not returning your soul back to God. Just a thought, that maybe this is why its hard for the rich to get into heaven if they have not humbled themselves before the lord.
 
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smithed64

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I have been thinking a lot about sound and light lately. I have been thinking of Hell as an absence of sound and light, being cast into the outer darkness without God. Just read the first few verses of John about in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Darkness is the absence of light, He is the Light and the Sound. I have been thinking for years that total separation from God would be much worse as a Hell than a literal fire. Torment would be without Christ, the absence of the Light and Sound.
Does this make sense to anyone? I'm percolating some theories here. I believe the Bible is the inherent Word of God, but I don't know if we could really comprehend what Hell is- total annhilation of the soul (absence of sound and light) and perhaps describing it as fire is the only way himans can begin to understand the continuous torture of being without God. I think about the lines in the Bible about being cast into the outer darkness.

It's not total annihilation. Those in Hell are conscious that they are there.

The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire
Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Christ describes Hell as like burning of the vines of those who don't produce the fruits of the spirit
 
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smithed64

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sin is something that we do
-and-
we all do it
-
it is not what we are
-and-
God loves the sinner

He loves His creation. He hates the Workers of iniquity

Psalm 5:5King James Version (KJV)

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

He tries the righteous and hates the soul of the wicked and violent

Psalm 11:5King James Version (KJV)

5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Remember. He is pure and Holy. Righteous and Just.
 
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victorinus

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He loves His creation. He hates the Workers of iniquity
d hates the soul of the wicked and violent
I heard a sermon where the priest taught that God even loved the devil
-and-
he made a good argument
 
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smithed64

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reason, logic, and common sense

No, God does not love Satan, and neither should we. God cannot love that which is evil and unholy, and Satan embodies all of that. He is the enemy (1 Peter 5:8); the evil one (Matthew 6:13); the father of lies and a murderer (John 8:44); the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10); the tempter (1 Thessalonians 3:5); proud, wicked and violent (Isaiah 14:12-15); a deceiver (Acts 13:10); a schemer (Ephesians 6:11); a thief (Luke 8:12); and many more evil things. He is, in fact, everything that God hates. The heart of Satan is fixed and confirmed in his hatred of God, his judgment is final, and his destruction is sure. Revelation 20 describes God’s future plan for Satan, and love for Satan has no part in it.

Since Satan is everything that is antithetical to the God we love, we cannot love Satan. If we loved Satan, we would be forced to hate God, because holiness is the opposite of sin.

God has already determined that there will be no forgiveness for Satan; we are the objects of God’s sacrificial love, shown on the cross. As God was lovingly redeeming mankind, He was putting Satan “to open shame” (Colossians 2:15). God’s judgment of Satan will be part of His great love for us.

Those are fine to use. But aren't scripture. We live by the Word and the Spirit of God.
His reasoning could have been flawed.
His logic could have been fallible
And His common sense could have been lacking.

Of course I don't know this person. But because He is human...he's fallible and therefore can be wrong.
 
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Lazarus Short

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reason, logic, and common sense

Yes - recall that Genesis 1:1 records that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." There is no mention that He made Hell, so I conclude that the Cosmos, the Earth and the people (souls) who live there are not a prey between Heaven/Hell, God/Satan. It's all a hierarchy, not a dualism.

Further, if we look at the only interaction between God and Satan, in the book of Job (if there are others, let me know), God does not seem to treat Satan as an enemy. I also found that the Bible nowhere makes a connection between Satan and Hell.
 
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smithed64

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Yes - recall that Genesis 1:1 records that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." There is no mention that He made Hell, so I conclude that the Cosmos, the Earth and the people (souls) who live there are not a prey between Heaven/Hell, God/Satan. It's all a hierarchy, not a dualism.

Further, if we look at the only interaction between God and Satan, in the book of Job (if there are others, let me know), God does not seem to treat Satan as an enemy. I also found that the Bible nowhere makes a connection between Satan and Hell.

There is no mention of Him creating the elements and their names either. But we know they are there.

Everything that ever was or is or will be is created by God, including hell (Colossians 1:16). John 1:3 says, “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” God alone has the power to cast someone into hell (Luke 12:5). Jesus holds the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18).

Jesus said that hell was “prepared” for Satan and the demons (Matthew 25:41). It is a just punishment for the wicked one. Hell, or the lake of fire, will also be the destination for those who reject Christ (2 Peter 2:4–9). The good news is that people can avoid hell. God, in His infinite mercy and love, has made a way of salvation for everyone who trusts in God’s Son, Jesus Christ (John 3:16, 36; 5:24).
There's no mention of DNA. He created that also...we know it's there.

Christ speaks more about Hell in the NT. Than any other person in the Bible.
He was there before, during and will be after the creation.

Ignoring Hell. Doesn't make it go away. It's there, it real and it's scriptural.
 
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Der Alte

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My research found that Hell, hellfire and all that, came from various pagan religions. As for Outer Darkness, we can make theories all day, but the Bible tells us little:
it is outside
it is dark
people weep there
people gnash their teeth there
it represents a loss of status.
We are not told that being given the bum's rush into Outer Darkness is forever.
Your research seems to be lacking.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son,
hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and
that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of
how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223,)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in
Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
 
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Galatea

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Someone once told me about how demons cannot feel for example, sand between the toes, grass etc. That they are completely cut off from Gods material creation, even smell, they are in league with the devil and against the material world. My guess is that your right, they thrive solely on negative energy and nothing else. Pure evil
That's not what I meant, I am talking about people who go to Hell for not accepting Christ. I've been thinking about sound and light, energy- and God being sound and light, and Hell being separated from God and thus separated from sound and light, and wonder if this is what Hell will be, but the Bible expresses it as fire because we can't understand an existence devoid of sound and light.
 
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