Hell.....

We all have our favorite heresies, otherwise what would internet forums be for?

I'm partial to universalism. Or at least the position of Karl Barth, who stated that we may at least permit ourselves to hope that hell is empty.

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Hieronymus said:

There is a difference between eternal punisment and eternal punishing.
In Greek the difference is bigger than in English.

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In either case, consciousness is required. The moment a person is annihilated they escape all punishment. When one does not exist, one cannot care if one does not exist, and cannot suffer non-existence. Eternal punishment is only punishment so long as the one being punished is conscious of the punishment they are suffering.

Selah.

aiki said:

In either case, consciousness is required. The moment a person is annihilated they escape all punishment. When one does not exist, one cannot care if one does not exist, or suffer non-existence. Eternal punishment is only punishment so long as the one being punished is conscious of the punishment they are suffering.

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You apparently missed the explanation you just quoted...

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Dear topcare. Hell is in Outer Space, a place without God`s Love, or Joy, or Compassion. We can choose to follow Christ back to God, or choose to go our own Way, which will lead into OUTER SPACE, where can be heard loud crying and gnashing of teeth. God is Love and wants loving men and women. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: "The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40 we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends)
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. God sees our loving efforts, and God will Bless us. We keep asking and thanking God, then share all love and joy with our neighbour. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring, being kind and always friendly. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. Christianity is Love and Compassion, Let us follow Jesus and keep praying for our lost loved ones and neighbours. Hell is only for those who choose it, God is Love and God wants our love. Love is also very catching, and love changes all things. I say this with love, topcare. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

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sculleywr said:

God is the Father of Adam, making Him Father of all who come from Adam.

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God is the Creator of Adam, but that doesn't automatically make Him Adam's Father. When a potter makes a pot, is he the pot's father, or merely its creator? It seems obvious to me that making a pot does not necessarily entail any parental bonds to it. So, too, with God and Adam. God made Adam but that by itself does not make Adam His child. God also made dinosaurs, and insects, and fish. Are they, too, children of God? I don't think so.

sculleywr said:

It changed whether he could call upon the authorities and responsibilities of sonship. Before we came to our senses, we were the prodigal.

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If you mean by "come to our senses" that we were unsaved and come to realize it, then I don't agree. Not being saved is not parallel to being a prodigal son. The Prodigal Son is not a picture of the non-believer. As you say, there was a relationship of father to son in the parable that pre-existed the prodigal's choice to live independently of his father. No matter how awfully the son lived, he was always his father's son. Can the unbeliever say the same? I don't think so. Consider the following verses:

Romans 8:9-15
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

Galatians 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

All of these passages clearly indicate two states in which a person may exist: An adopted state, or an un-adopted one. A person has either been redeemed, and adopted by God, and indwelt by His Spirit, or they have not. Not all people that live, then, are adopted into God's family. And those that aren't are not His children and have no part in His kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Again, two states of the human person are described: An unrighteous state outside of God's kingdom, or a washed, sanctified and justified state inside of God's kingdom. It seems pretty plain to me that the Bible does not teach a universal family of God.

sculleywr said:

Doesn't make our sin infinite. Without God ADDING to our sin that which we could never add, there is no infinite nature to our sin. Our sins have distinct beginnings and ends. God does not.

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You make my case for me here. It is because our sin is against an infinite God that our unconfessed and unrepented-of sin never ceases to be a violation of His will. So long as God exists our sin against Him continues to exist.

The other eternal problem with our sin is that we can't, in and of ourselves, make perfect restitution for it, which is the only kind of restitution that will fully expunge our sin. We must atone for our sin until the atonement is fully and perfectly made. But we are flawed, sin-corrupted creatures incapable of such atonement. This is why Jesus, the perfect, sinless Lamb of God, was sent to "take away the sin of the world." If we do not avail ourselves of his gift of salvation, then we must atone for our sin ourselves, which, because of our own imperfection, results in an endless process of restitution.

sculleywr said:

How does finite beget infinite? It doesn't.

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Quite right. But you stipulated in your last post to me that "infinite begets infinite" and "finite begets finite." As I pointed out, this is obviously not the case. The Infinite has begotten the finite.

sculleywr said:

Sure, God is the judge of my sin, but if my sin were infinite, then it would be equal to God.

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Let me clarify terms, then: instead of infinite, which describes something without beginning or end, without boundaries, our sin is eternal, which means that it may have had a beginning a finite time in the past but goes on from that point without end. For the reasons I have outlined above, our sin is better described as eternal in its consequences than infinite.

sculleywr said:

Considering that I have a miniature pharmacy in my bedroom with enough drowsy drugs to knock most people out for a week that I have to take every day, on top of the lesions of psoriasis and stricture in my colon combined with bleeding in my intestines, I'm pretty well accustomed to pain. I used to be able to lift a good 40 pound weight in hammers and curls, but now I'm struggling doing twenty reps with a five pound weight.

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I'm very sorry to hear it! I have my own physical problems, too. I'll keep praying for you.

sculleywr said:

Pain that is borne out of love is not truly pain. Not in the same way as the pain of torture.

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You've skirted the point I made about pain. Whether or not it is related to our love of a thing, pain is necessary. Without it - as leprosy horribly illustrates - deformity and death result. Pain protects us. It warns us of our limits and provokes us to change our behaviour when it is pain-producing. Enduring a modicum of pain is also necessary to high achievement. Not all pain, then, is bad.

In any case, the pain of Hell is not supposed to be anything but penal suffering. It is not intended to be the same sort of pain our love for something may produce.

sculleywr said:

If it is caused by God, then God is nothing more than a sadistic torturer, and I could not bring myself to compliment, much less worship, such a being.

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The eternal torment of Hell does not make God a "sadistic torturer" but a holy and just punisher of the unrepentant wicked. As I have said, you make too little of your sin and too little of God's purity and justness and that is why you describe the Maker of Hell as you do.

Selah.

Your "redefinition" of Hell is actually what the Orthodox Churches have always believed, if I'm not mistaken.

aiki said:

The higher the power or authority, the greater the consequences when you contravene the laws of that authority.That is true when breaking human laws and true also when breaking God's laws. Break the laws of the Ultimate Authority and you suffer ultimate consequences.

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I think you simply assume this. If you are arguing that since God is the ultimate authority, to break God's laws must mean the ultimate punishment. And what could be more ultimate than an eternity in torment.

If this is your argument, it is mere speculation - there is nothing in scripture that sets forth such a general principle.

aiki said:

You make my case for me here. It is because our sin is against an infinite God that our unconfessed and unrepented-of sin never ceases to be a violation of His will. So long as God exists our sin against Him continues to exist.

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But this does not make our sin infinite, and the poster to whom you are responding was pointing out that our sin is not infinite.

aiki said:

If we do not avail ourselves of his gift of salvation, then we must atone for our sin ourselves, which, because of our own imperfection, results in an endless process of restitution.

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I do not follow the logic here. Why would atoning for our clearly finite sin require an endless process of restitution?

aiki said:

The eternal torment of Hell does not make God a "sadistic torturer" but a holy and just punisher of the unrepentant wicked.

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This is a very difficult case to make, especially in light of how Jesus teaches us to deal with sin - by forgiveness. If it is holy and just to punish, does that not mean that we - who presumably should be seeking to be holy and just - should violently punish evildoers.

The whole notion that a loving God would punish people forever in torment is, frankly, absurd. And its' not really supported Biblically anyway - as has been shown (perhaps in another thread) there is clear Biblical precedent for the language of "eternal destruction" being used as a kind of poetic device to actually describe a judgment event that is finite in duration. Example: Isaiah's prediction of the judgment of Edom.

I will go with the Biblical precedent and not these handwaving, vague, and ultimately incoherent arguments that God is somehow "just" in inflicting eternal torment on people.

expos4ever said:

I think you simply assume this. If you are arguing that since God is the ultimate authority, to break God's laws must mean the ultimate punishment. And what could be more ultimate than an eternity in torment.

If this is your argument, it is mere speculation - there is nothing in scripture that sets forth such a general principle.

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I think it stands to reason. You are quite free to disagree, but simply saying "it isn't in the Bible" doesn't void my reasoning. Besides, I never asserted that what I was saying in this regard was in the Bible.

expos4ever said:

But this does not make our sin infinite, and the poster to whom you are responding was pointing out that our sin is not infinite.

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I clarified my terms. I think it is more accurate to say our sin has eternal consequences. See my last post.

expos4ever said:

I do not follow the logic here. Why would atoning for our clearly finite sin require an endless process of restitution?

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Explained in my last post.

expos4ever said:

This is a very difficult case to make, especially in light of how Jesus teaches us to deal with sin - by forgiveness.

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Forgiveness does not always necessitate the alleviation of consequences. I have seen a murderer forgiven but he still went to jail for forty years. God has instituted the governments of nations that enforce a penal system of law:

Romans 13:1-4
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We are to forgive, but in light of what is written here, justice is the domain of governments and is separate from our acts of forgiveness. Human justice is a shadow of the just wrath of God upon evildoers. It exacts, institutionally, vengeance and just wrath upon lawbreakers, which is what God does in a more perfect and full way through the punishment of Hell. I don't, therefore, see the incongruity you say exists between forgiveness and God's justice.

expos4ever said:

If it is holy and just to punish, does that not mean that we - who presumably should be seeking to be holy and just - should violently punish evildoers.

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This is - as the passage above explains - precisely what the institutional, governmental authorities of a society are intended by God to do. They are to "avenge and execute wrath on him who practices evil."

expos4ever said:

The whole notion that a loving God would punish people forever in torment is, frankly, absurd.

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Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

expos4ever said:

And its' not really supported Biblically anyway - as has been shown (perhaps in another thread) there is clear Biblical precedent for the language of "eternal destruction" being used as a kind of poetic device to actually describe a judgment event that is finite in duration.

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And I think such an interpretation plays fast and loose with the word of God.

expos4ever said:

I will go with the Biblical precedent and not these handwaving, vague, and ultimately silly arguments that God is somehow "just" in inflicting eternal torment on people.

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Again, you are free to hold whatever view you like. I shall go with the plain declaration of Scripture on this matter.

Selah.

aiki said:

And I think such an interpretation plays fast and loose with the word of God.

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All right, let's deal with the specifics.

Here is a text from the Old Testament

Isaiah 34:9-10
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

This prophecy was fulfilled - Edom was indeed defeated.

Question: Is smoke rising from Edom today? No it is not. So we have clear Biblical precedent of the image of "forever" being used to denote a time interval that is, in fact, not really forever at all.

What is your response?

Was Edom not defeated after Isaiah wrote these words?

If "forever" really always mean "forever", why do we not see smoke rising from Edom today?

expos4ever said:

All right, let's deal with the specifics.

Here is a text from the Old Testament

Isaiah 34:9-10
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

This prophecy was fulfilled - Edom was indeed defeated.

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That is true - but it is unclear that we can say more about it and still keep to the rules of GT section of the board.