Hell

[createdtoworship]

I think its fine to critique each others discussion style to an extent, especially as matters of style can sometimes impede the substantive discussion.

I do think its wrong to critique in a truly mean way though.

I dont even know what it means for flaming generally to be "illogical". Do you mean maybe "counterproductive" instead? or "unkind"? Flaming, insult, etc, arent even playing a reasoning game, so I'm not sure in what fashion they are generally illogical.

I disagree that an argument needs to be present for their to be fallacies, I believe that all that is required is a statement, either positive or negative. So in this case simply replying to a comment, granted it is a statement, can be fallacious. Now at this point you may find some blog somewhere that states you need to have an argument, but that is because they wish the argument to have some premises. But premises are not needed to have a fallacy, as you can commit a fallacy of begging the question when you offer no premises, a fallacy of assuming your conclusion without evidence. Since you don't need premises to commit that fallacy, you don't need an argument either. So thus all that is needed is either a negative or positive statement.

 

[durangodawood]

I disagree that an argument needs to be present for their to be fallacies, I believe that all that is required is a statement, either positive or negative. So in this case simply replying to a comment, granted it is a statement, can be fallacious. Now at this point you may find some blog somewhere that states you need to have an argument, but that is because they wish the argument to have some premises. But premises are not needed to have a fallacy, as you can commit a fallacy of begging the question when you offer no premises, a fallacy of assuming your conclusion without evidence. Since you don't need premises to commit that fallacy, you don't need an argument either. So thus all that is needed is either a negative or positive statement.

So if I say to you "wow gradyll, you are just a great guy and a pleasure to chat with", am I assuming the conclusion?

 

[createdtoworship]

So if I say to you "wow gradyll, you are just a great guy and a pleasure to chat with", am I assuming the conclusion?

Yes, because you don't support your comment with evidence. I may in fact be a great guy to you but that is meaningless to the whole if not supported in a way that does not replicate mere opinion. At least in a debate setting, casual conversation makes many assumptions all the time. Because we become lazy in every day talk, and that is ok. But in a debate setting switching between casual and debate, just to get a pot shot in is not honest, nor right.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes, because you don't support your comment with evidence. I may in fact be a great guy to you but that is meaningless to the whole if not supported in a way that does not replicate mere opinion. At least in a debate setting, casual conversation makes many assumptions all the time. Because we become lazy in every day talk, and that is ok. But in a debate setting switching between casual and debate, just to get a pot shot in is not honest, nor right.

Evidence doesnt matter because its my opinion. If I find you agreeable, then thats a baseline fact that no one can contend.

Or are you asking for brain-scan charts showing how my "agreeable!" brain zones light up at your name?

 

[gaara4158]

Yes, because you don't support your comment with evidence. I may in fact be a great guy to you but that is meaningless to the whole if not supported in a way that does not replicate mere opinion. At least in a debate setting, casual conversation makes many assumptions all the time. Because we become lazy in every day talk, and that is ok. But in a debate setting switching between casual and debate, just to get a pot shot in is not honest, nor right.

I think you are misinterpreting the intent of the personal impressions people are expressing with regards to your style of argumentation. They’re not doing it to take potshots at you or harass you, and they’re not attempting to dismiss your arguments based on their impressions. They’re letting you know that the way you are coming across is ignorant and ineffective. It may sting to read those words, but they’re actually kind to tell you so. If you actually hope to influence people here, you have to take the time to understand where they are coming from and why they aren’t responding to your arguments the way you’d like them to. They’re telling you how to influence them. You should listen.

And if you just respond to this by pointing out fallacies you think I’m committing, I’ll know you didn’t listen.

 

[createdtoworship]

I think you are misinterpreting the intent of the personal impressions people are expressing with regards to your style of argumentation. They’re not doing it to take potshots at you or harass you, and they’re not attempting to dismiss your arguments based on their impressions. They’re letting you know that the way you are coming across is ignorant and ineffective. It may sting to read those words, but they’re actually kind to tell you so. If you actually hope to influence people here, you have to take the time to understand where they are coming from and why they aren’t responding to your arguments the way you’d like them to. They’re telling you how to influence them. You should listen.

And if you just respond to this by pointing out fallacies you think I’m committing, I’ll know you didn’t listen.

that is just your opinion. But If I said that your views are like mythology and called you Zeus, you would find it offensive. This is an example of a quote from you in another thread: "you're doing a Deepak Chopra with a bunch of terms no one understands and hoping it sticks" from this link: The Moral Argument (revamped)

I don't tolerate flaming in any sense, because if it is tolerated it becomes the "go to" style of debate for the losing party.

 

[createdtoworship]

Evidence doesnt matter because its my opinion. If I find you agreeable, then thats a baseline fact that no one can contend.

Or are you asking for brain-scan charts showing how my "agreeable!" brain zones light up at your name?

Because I agree with it, it is fact? The definition of a fact if you didn't know is "A thing that is known or proved to be true" oxford dictionary: fact | Definition of fact in English by Oxford Dictionaries . So nowhere in that definition is there my opinion or your opinion it is something that is proven.

 

[durangodawood]

Because I agree with it, it is fact? The definition of a fact if you didn't know is "A thing that is known or proved to be true" oxford dictionary: fact | Definition of fact in English by Oxford Dictionaries . So nowhere in that definition is there my opinion or your opinion it is something that is proven.

Yeah I could be lying.

But to me, my state of mind is "known".

For you, the best course is just to trust me. Its not like my impression of you, or any other sideline matter, is decisive regarding the actual discussion topic.

 

[gaara4158]

that is just your opinion. But If I said that your views are like mythology and called you Zeus, you would find it offensive. This is an example of a quote from you in another thread: "you're doing a Deepak Chopra with a bunch of terms no one understands and hoping it sticks" from this link: The Moral Argument (revamped)

I don't tolerate flaming in any sense, because if it is tolerated it becomes the "go to" style of debate for the losing party.

Of course it’s my opinion, and if you don’t value the opinions of your interlocutors I don’t know what you’re doing here. Again, it’s important to note how you are coming across to the people you hope to influence. You cannot change someone’s mind if they don’t see any reason to take you seriously, and they will not take you seriously if you don’t show that you value their opinions.

I am sorry you feel flamed when people are too candid with you. I will take that into account in our future interactions. For the record, I do not appreciate being threatened with an ignore button as though I’m a troll just trying to get a rise out of you. I genuinely believe you’re capable of having a fruitful discussion about the topics at hand, but you’ll need to let your guard down. We won’t bite if you don’t attack us for being honest.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yeah I could be lying.

But to me, my state of mind is "known".

For you, the best course is just to trust me. Its not like my impression of you, or any other sideline matter, is decisive regarding the actual discussion topic.

it sounds like debate is not your thing. If you honor opinion over fact. I know this may be hard to take, but I'll just be honest. There are plenty of threads you can go to to find what your looking for but this thread is a debate thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Of course it’s my opinion, and if you don’t value the opinions of your interlocutors I don’t know what you’re doing here. Again, it’s important to note how you are coming across to the people you hope to influence. You cannot change someone’s mind if they don’t see any reason to take you seriously, and they will not take you seriously if you don’t show that you value their opinions.

I am sorry you feel flamed when people are too candid with you. I will take that into account in our future interactions. For the record, I do not appreciate being threatened with an ignore button as though I’m a troll just trying to get a rise out of you. I genuinely believe you’re capable of having a fruitful discussion about the topics at hand, but you’ll need to let your guard down. We won’t bite if you don’t attack us for being honest.

if you want to continue the debate on hell, by all means proceed. But there is nothing in this statement about the topic of this thread. And by the way I know that you will never believe. I don't post for you guys, I post for other christians struggling with these issues that may fall to your recruitment tactics.

 

[durangodawood]

it sounds like debate is not your thing. If you honor opinion over fact. I know this may be hard to take, but I'll just be honest. There are plenty of threads you can go to to find what your looking for but this thread is a debate thread.

For a "logic guy" this post^^^ is dripping with attitude.

Its fair to call people out on matters of style when they are impeding the discussion. You are capable of separating that issue from the original topic. You can do this. I know it!

 

[createdtoworship]

For a "logic guy" this post^^^ is dripping with attitude.

Its fair to call people out on matters of style when they are impeding the discussion. You are capable of separating that issue from the original topic. You can do this. I know it!

if you don't like the rules that people use for debate, all I am saying is that this is probably not the right place for you. I am trying to help you. I didn't mean to be rude or have attitude. But yes, it is frustrating trying to explain basic rules of logic over and over to someone who apparently doesn't like it.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

if you want to continue the debate on hell, by all means proceed. But there is nothing in this statement about the topic of this thread. And by the way I know that you will never believe. I don't post for you guys, I post for other christians struggling with these issues that may fall to your recruitment tactics.

Believe me, your "torture is moral"-shpiel has alienated more struggling Christians from your brand of Christianity than any non-theist argument ever could. Your quest for rationalisations has brought you so far from the spirit AND letter of the gospel that you basically peddle an anti-Christian ethos where torturing people is good.

 

[gaara4158]

if you want to continue the debate on hell, by all means proceed. But there is nothing in this statement about the topic of this thread. And by the way I know that you will never believe. I don't post for you guys, I post for other christians struggling with these issues that may fall to your recruitment tactics.

The thing is, to anyone on the fence or struggling with their faith, failing to address legitimate criticism for your arguments and focusing on who hurt your feelings instead isn’t going to help their confidence that what you’re saying is correct. Just food for thought.

As for Hell as described by the OP, I think it’s a boogeyman threat tacked on to religions that want to discourage apostasy.

 

[createdtoworship]

The thing is, to anyone on the fence or struggling with their faith, failing to address legitimate criticism for your arguments and focusing on who hurt your feelings instead isn’t going to help their confidence that what you’re saying is correct. Just food for thought.

As for Hell as described by the OP, I think it’s a boogeyman threat tacked on to religions that want to discourage apostasy.

so far I haven't seen you post on the topic of the thread. And I apologize but I can't debate you any more. It has resorted to fighting and name calling ever since you were blocked originally. All I can say is "nice words turn away wrath." It's in the Bible.

you can reply to my posts as usual, I just won't see them to repond. So take care.

I do wish you the best in life. And I pray you find Jesus, not for my sake, but for yours.

 

[createdtoworship]

Believe me, your "torture is moral"-shpiel has alienated more struggling Christians from your brand of Christianity than any non-theist argument ever could. Your quest for rationalisations has brought you so far from the spirit AND letter of the gospel that you basically peddle an anti-Christian ethos where torturing people is good.

So a non christian is saying how a post affects christians?

 

[gaara4158]

so far I haven't seen you post on the topic of the thread. And I apologize but I can't debate you any more. It has resorted to fighting and name calling ever since you were blocked originally. All I can say is "nice words turn away wrath." It's in the Bible.

you can reply to my posts as usual, I just won't see them to repond. So take care.

I do wish you the best in life. And I pray you find Jesus, not for my sake, but for yours.

Guys, help me out. Was I rude? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Guys, help me out. Was I rude? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Not at all. I had forgotten until after my post in this thread that I had given up on interlocution with this individual. And, now I remember why.

 

[createdtoworship]

Not at all. I had forgotten until after my post in this thread that I had given up on interlocution with this individual. And, now I remember why.

If you guys want to debate hell, like the thread states. By all means go ahead. And if you wish to be blocked by me and not to debate with me. I will honor your requests and ignore anyone who does not wish to talk to me. I would rather offer that option than have conversations become rude or offensive to everyone involved.