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Since you brought up universalists...Nonsense! One can post as many quotes from modern universalists and other false beliefs they want to but nothing can refute the historical evidence
I have presented from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud in post #4...............
*SNIP*
I've got a question about how Messianic Judaism views the idea of universalism. As you know, Christians, by and large, believe that salvation is through Christ alone, and that one must know Christ to know God.
This differs from Judaism, because Jews believe that all religions are means by which we can communicate with the divine. So what's the Messianic Jewish stance on this?
I didn't know that all jews believe that all religions are means by which we can communicate with the divine.
I believe that you need to know Yeshua [Christ] in order to know our Heavenly Father...and no one can come to Christ except through the Father... so it takes both..in fact it is almost impossible to separate the two they are so much alike...
Originally Posted by arunma
Well, there are of course some Jews who believe that Judaism is the only true religion. You know how it goes: two Jews, three opinions. But most Jews that I've talked to believe that other religions are true, insofar as they encourage righteous behavior.
By the way, I do not believe in universalism, just in case you were wondering.
I don't know about the Jewish folk with whom you have spoken......
But most Jewish people in today's world don't even necessarily believe there is a "real" G-d or an actual physical Messiah - most know very little of the bible and believe it mostly a cultural quasi-historical collection of object lesson stories...... it is quite popular among the "liberated and enlightened" to deny any uniqueness to the Jewish relationship to HaShem - the misperception of such special relationship being fertile fodder for much anti-semetism........
of the Jewish people who do believe the scriptures are the literal word and instruction of HaShem, the one true and Living G-d, I'd wager very few, if any, believe all "religions" lead to HaShem......
PART TWO
Okay, so we must be converted and become like children. Doesn't it make sense that if there are bad parts which act as a deterrent to an adult to become like a little child in the sense intended here, God needs only to remove that deterrent to restore the individual to the desired state? Childlike faith is something all humans possess very early in life. We lose it by being corrupted. When the corruption is removed, the original state prevails.
Another example of text barrage this example was used in its Mat 5:29-30 sister quote above and is repeated here, obviously to beef up the whole passage flooding scheme, and is apparently used a third time when were advised to access comments on Mark 9:43-48, a third passage of the same teaching.
Nothing here about humans suffering eternally in hell.
Nothing here about eternal suffering in hell, but the passages do provide yet another of the many examples in Scripture of a separation of good from bad elements.
Same as above. Nothing whatever to do with an eternal hell.
Same. No hell to be found here.
Same. No hell.
This is the ONLY place in the Bible the term everlasting punishment, which has been covered re Barclays observation in another post.
This interpretation is the only one which does not vioate Gods perfect justice, as explained in the link to the Gen 18 video provided earlier.
Part Three
Good example of the traditionalist forcing his doctrine on the Scriptures. There is no leaving hell because its an experience, not a place. Jesus warns us all about the unquenchable fire because those who reject Him will face its terrible purification without mercy, albeit in Gods greatest expression of love, for He will not lose a single one the Son draws to Him in His having been lifted up (Jn 12:32) And those portions of us which reject Him will be brought to the light of His fire and eliminated (1Cor 3:11-15). Hence, the change occurs when all the false elements are destroyed from the individual soul, restoring the person to right relationship with her Maker.
What? This is completely taken out of context as part of the text barrage.
Wheres the hell you champion? Not here.
Let's use intellectual honesty here. The rich man is not told he must remain there forever, only that there is a gulf between him and the place where no torment exists. You force eternal separation on a verse which clearly does not teach it.
These are manmade rules, not spiritual truth. Remember the control thing? Behold the beast. I could concede such a view if there existed any legitimate reason for placing it there. What basis is there for such a rule? It seems to me you're just trying to add some admittedly needed weight to your arguments by sticking in some sort of contrived linguistic rule to cement your position. Unless you can come up with a reasonable basis for this, it should be assigned to empty posturing.
It doesn't need to change. You're misreading it. Jesus isn't making a demand, He's showing us the standard he intends to impose upon all whom He decreed He will draw (Jn 12:32[/B]) The whole "when a person dies...etc" used above is not in the Bible, it's your doctrine being wrongly presented as truth. I understand that you believe this stuff, but the downfall of the harsh literalist is his inability to see that his beliefs, though they certainly hold truth, are not identicalto truth itself.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here or of this being an eternal set of circumstances.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here. Also, argument from silence, a conclusion based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence. Carries no weight.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here. Answer to your question is, they're burned until all the bad stuff is annihilated.
Since you brought up universalists...
What do you know of the Jews/Judaism and their view of Universalism?
I just happen to find a thread discussing that:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1309139/
Judaism and Universalism
You do not seem to know the difference between an interpretation and a translation. You also fail to understand that Christ came speaking in parables.
2 Clem 5:4 Jesus said unto Peter, Let not the lambs fear the wolves after they are dead; and ye also, fear ye not them that kill you and are not able to do anything to you; but fear Him that after ye are dead hath power over soul and body, to cast them into the Gehenna of fire.
Gehenna is parabolic for eternal destruction. Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge. Only Pagan Jews believe in Hell, Orthodox Jews do not. The word "grave" does not translate as "Hell." Believing in Hell supports what the Serpent says and makes God a liar.
The word "gehenna" is only mentioned 1 time outside the Jewish/Hebrew Gospels, and that is in James 3:6.Don't know. Don't care. What modern Jews/MJs believe about universalism is irrelevant.
What did the first century Jews believe about it and did Jesus preach/teach anything about it?
The word "gehenna" is only mentioned 1 time outside the Jewish/Hebrew Gospels, and that is in James 3:6.
Notice the mention of "tongue" and "geenna" in that verse and Luke 16:24. See any similarity?
Greek Lexicon :: G1067 (YLT)
Strong's Number G1067 matches the Greek γέεννα (geenna), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance
Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Ezekiel 39:12/Reve 14:11]
Jas 3:6
and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.
[FWIW, I view 1st century OC Jerusalem as that great City in Revelation]
http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire
Luke 16:24
And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the flame, this."
1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell
I'm not sure what the relevance of this is.
Notice the mention of "tongue" and "geenna" in that verse and Luke 16:24. See any similarity?
Other than the occurrence of the words "tongue" and "Gehenna" no. .
Don't know. Don't care. What modern Jews/MJs believe about universalism is irrelevant. What did the first century Jews believe about it and did Jesus preach/teach anything about it?
Do you want to believe that Yahuah will torture living beings for all eternity with out mercy?
I believe scripture. Never heard of Yahuah.
Jer 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the
...
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD [יהוה] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
I wonder exactly when יהוה will have pity, and mercy and undestroy them.
I believe scripture. Never heard of Yahuah.
Jer 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the
...
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD [יהוה] I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
I wonder exactly when יהוה will have pity, and mercy and undestroy them.
If He destroys them, then they have no life. If they have no life, then how is it that they are alive in Hell? As always you avoid giving an answer by twisting every scripture.
Quote: "Never heard of Yahuah."
I often hear Christians say they don't give a damn who Yahuah is, they only want to worship Jesus.
Rather than merely have me read it, let's post it here for every reader to see...Read the verse again. 10100 times 10100 eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "neither can they pass to us, that would come from there."
This is how the harsh literalist forces his pet doctrine on Scripture, telling God what He is allowed to say in His word.10100 times 10100 eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "neither can they pass to us, that would come from there."
Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
If He destroys them, then they have no life. If they have no life, then how is it that they are alive in Hell? As always you avoid giving an answer by twisting every scripture.
I'll only post one of your responses, which immediately reveals the degree of intellectual honesty you use in virtually all your responses:
Rather than merely have me read it, let's post it here for every reader to see...
DA said:And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.
This was in response to the rich man's request to allow Lazarus to bring him some relief from his suffering. Nowhere in the verse is duration mentioned or even referred to. The reference to an eternal punishment exists in the mind of the eternal tormentist/literalist who sees it there by virtue of having bought hook, line and sinker into his doctrine.
This is how the harsh literalist forces his pet doctrine on Scripture, telling God what He is allowed to say in His word.
DA, how can you not be ashamed of remarks like this?
On the bright side, your constant tirades and their lack of substance should be causing the minds of thinking Christians to rethink the legitimacy of the eternal punishment doctrine.
That is, until folks realize that the power of Scripture is in the allegoric structure God has woven into it, revealing that the annihilation of evil persons--spoken to in various ways in dozens of passages by various authors over many centuries--are actually consistent, self-affirming, metaphors representing how God saves every human being, by fragmentally removing bad parts from every human soul.
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)[/SIZE]
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God-YHWH.
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh (יהוה), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility (see Jehovah). This form has arisen through attempting to pronounce the consonants of the name with the vowels of Adonai (אדני = "Lord"), which the Masorites have inserted in the text, indicating thereby that Adonai was to be read (as a "keri perpetuum") instead of Yhwh. When the name Adonai itself precedes, to avoid repetition of this name, Yhwh is written by the Masorites with the vowels of Elohim, in which case Elohim is read instead of Yhwh. In consequence of this Masoretic reading the authorized and revised English versions (though not the American edition of the revised version) render Yhwh by the word "Lord" in the great majority of cases.
This name, according to the narrative in Ex. iii. (E), was made known to Moses in a vision at Horeb. In another, parallel narrative (Ex. vi. 2, 3, P) it is stated that the name was not known to the Patriarchs. It is used by one of the documentary sources of Genesis (J), but scarcely if at all by the others. Its use is avoided by some later writers also. It does not occur in Ecclesiastes, and in Daniel is found only in ch. ix. The writer of Chronicles shows a preference for the form Elohim, and in Ps. xlii.-lxxxiii. Elohim occurs much more frequently than Yhwh, probably having been substituted in some places for the latter name, as in Ps. liii. (comp. Ps. xiv.).
In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").
NAMES OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com
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