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Received

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I'm speaking of two variations: the one everlasting flames, the other a metaphorical "outer darkness" (where perhaps the sinners get their own sin for eternity, some pertinent to Lewis' statement that the doors to hell are locked from the inside).

Let's speak about the eternal fire one first. I see three reasons as to how a person could believe something so unutterably terrible and unjust as an everlasting punishment in fire. (It's bad enough dying in a fire once.)

1) The person is just a theological jerk, and probably the type who is impatiently waiting for the judgment day to reveal all the people he disagrees with and doesn't like get their fair reward. That is, his hatred for others he sees as outside his group blinds him to the reality of how terrible this type of suffering would inflict upon others.

2) The person just doesn't really think about what eternity or everlasting means. When I say "a long time," this has a much softer emotional weight than "forever," if I were able to fully grasp what this "forever" means. But not many people really put thought into words like "endless," "forever," "everlasting," "eternal". In a sense, no mind can, and instead substitutes the impression that any of these words are really just "a long time".

3) And most importantly, IMO, a person doesn't really know what suffering is. To really, truly suffer to a physical and psychological degree that an Auschwitzian experience can capture, where you're in so incredibly much pain and are doubtful that the pain would end -- this is a fraction of the stuff that an everlasting literal hell is made of. No single person, unless he's a theological jerk (see 1), can experience his own deepest suffering and then look and find an everlasting fire Hell as anything remotely close to justice or love.

Regarding the metaphorical perspective of Hell, it's no doubt a lot better and even logically sealed with God's goodness and human freedom. These folks aren't getting physically attacked in any type of way. But there is a lot of the psychological negativity of the type we know when we say, e.g., "that relationship was hell." In this hell, people are free to continue in their sin, and their sin becomes their own punishment. But you might be easily able to see so far in this description that it nowhere fits in exegetical terms what the New Testament says about Hell. All we have are phrases that don't sound pleasant, like "outer darkness," "fire", "gnashing of teeth," etc. These phrases don't offer enough detail to support this view of hell as a place where sinners do their thing, and Hell is Hell only from the perspective of Heaven.
 
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PsychoSarah

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It gets difficult to actually form a concept of hell from scripture alone (heaven also has this issue) because it just isn't described well in the bible. This is why literature such as Dante's Inferno matches up with popular ideas about hell than the bible does; writers and some religious officials attempted to fill in the missing detail the bible didn't have. Heck, there was a time period in which people described hell as cold, as it was deep underground and the light and warmth of the sun couldn't reach it.
 
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quatona

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2) The person just doesn't really think about what eternity or everlasting means. When I say "a long time," this has a much softer emotional weight than "forever," if I were able to fully grasp what this "forever" means. But not many people really put thought into words like "endless," "forever," "everlasting," "eternal". In a sense, no mind can, and instead substitutes the impression that any of these words are really just "a long time".
...but these people certainly can fathom "a long time", and " a long time" (needn´t even be years, but just a couple of weeks or days) should be enough for people to abstain from praising it as a just, good or positive.

3) And most importantly, IMO, a person doesn't really know what suffering is. To really, truly suffer to a physical and psychological degree that an Auschwitzian experience can capture, where you're in so incredibly much pain and are doubtful that the pain would end -- this is a fraction of the stuff that an everlasting literal hell is made of. No single person, unless he's a theological jerk (see 1), can experience his own deepest suffering and then look and find an everlasting fire Hell as anything remotely close to justice or love.
Or: "hell" is within, and those people who rejoice with the thought that others will suffer this inner state, are already suffering hell and know what they are talking about, quite fine.

In this hell, people are free to continue in their sin, and their sin becomes their own punishment.
Seems to me that (minus the religious baggage - "sin") this is a good summary of psychology.
Considering that the bible uses the literary technique of externalisation a lot, and considering that it also uses the tool of exaggeration a lot, I´m quite fine with leaving it at that.
 
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Paradoxum

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I agree. Once one tried to conceive of eternal pain, I don't see how it's possible to see it as anything less than the most evil thing imaginable... and nearly by definition, infinitely worse than anything any human could do.

No evil that humans do is infinite, so eternal punishment could never be just.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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I think that you also have to add the category of people who reach that conclusion because they believe that it's a necessary part of Christian theology. From a fundamentalist perspective, a lot of people reach the conclusion that it's better to accept the literal sense of the text than to not, given the fact that the literal interpretation was dominant for centuries. If your system of belief says that the Bible is absolutely literally true, that God is good, and that God punishes people in fire for all eternity, then believing those things is internally consistent with a system that you probably have an emotional attachment to and a fear of abandoning. Whether it's externally consistent doesn't matter from a psychological perspective.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Hell, as a physical place is indeed established in Bible text. Whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

There is some discussion about the literal nature of 'fire' and 'cold' and such. Jesus mentioned at least once that Hell is a place where the fire never goes out and the worm never dies. It can be argued this is metaphoric language. Frankly, the reality of it boils down to 'it's not a good place to be and no one will like it'.

The other point about Hell is that is was designed for the confinement of Satan and the 'fallen' or renegade angels. Further, the Bible teaches all those who reject God will spend eternity there. So the people who populate Hell are those who don't want to spend eternity with God. How unfair is that?

I suppose it's easier to dump all the blame on God. In that manner, no human has any culpability in the matter, right?
 
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quatona

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I suppose it's easier to dump all the blame on God. In that manner, no human has any culpability in the matter, right?
No, no. It´s way easier to dump all the blame on humans instead of the alleged author, creator and mastermind of everything. Way easier.
In oder to dump the blame on a God we´d first have to invent one, after all.
 
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Paradoxum

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Hell, as a physical place is indeed established in Bible text. Whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

The point is that hell is evil, so a good being couldn't have created such a place. We can be much more certain that hell is evil than that the Bible is trustworthy (or that a particular interpretation of the Bible is trustworthy).

The other point about Hell is that is was designed for the confinement of Satan and the 'fallen' or renegade angels.

That doesn't make it better. It's wrong to punish demons for eternity too, if their sins are finite (which they probably are).

Further, the Bible teaches all those who reject God will spend eternity there. So the people who populate Hell are those who don't want to spend eternity with God. How unfair is that?

If you just want to separate people from God, they could go to a limbo, rather than a hell. The unfair bit is the eternal punish... which is infinitely unfair and unjustified.

I suppose it's easier to dump all the blame on God. In that manner, no human has any culpability in the matter, right?

Well I'm not blaming God... I don't believe in God. I'm saying the idea is wrong.
 
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Standing_Ultraviolet

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Hell, as a physical place is indeed established in Bible text. Whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

There is some discussion about the literal nature of 'fire' and 'cold' and such. Jesus mentioned at least once that Hell is a place where the fire never goes out and the worm never dies. It can be argued this is metaphoric language. Frankly, the reality of it boils down to 'it's not a good place to be and no one will like it'.

The other point about Hell is that is was designed for the confinement of Satan and the 'fallen' or renegade angels. Further, the Bible teaches all those who reject God will spend eternity there. So the people who populate Hell are those who don't want to spend eternity with God. How unfair is that?

I suppose it's easier to dump all the blame on God. In that manner, no human has any culpability in the matter, right?

Honestly, whether the fire and/or cold are literal or not is very relevant to the discussion here. There are quite a few different views of Hell in Christian theology that are generally considered compatible with an overall orthodox viewpoint.

The first is the idea of Hell as a terrifying prison where physical punishments are inflicted on sinners who die in a state of final impenitence. In this view, the loss of God might be a profound part of the suffering (or even the dominant aspect of it), but God is portrayed as actively torturing the lost. In the second view, Hell is a necessary consequence of human freewill. The human intellect exists in such a way that attitudes become fixed at death, and so if you die in a state of final impenitence, then you will naturally want to be away from God, even though that state is unpleasant. God will allow you to do so, out of respect for your free will. The third view works as kind of a corollary to the second, but with the assumption that all souls go to meet and be with God after death. This view is more common with the Eastern Orthodox, because their view of sin is more of a state where you turn away from God, manifested in outward actions, than actions that are punished. In this view, though, the state of being with God and in full view of his divine glory is eternal bliss for those who want to be with him and eternal suffering for those who don't.

The first of those views paints God as a torturer. The fire/cold in Hell are literal, and they are literally punishments inflicted by God on the damned. This is the view that most people have a hard time squaring away with the idea of a loving God, no matter how it is explained.

With the second and third views, God isn't portrayed as a torturer. With the third view, the punishment is strictly because of the person's own mindset. God shows the same love to everyone, and the subjective experience of some people is different than the subjective experience of others. In the second view, while God does cast out sinners, it's seen as an act at least somewhat for their own benefit. If he didn't, then they would suffer even worse in Heaven than in Hell. People who hold this view tend to hold something similar to the third view as a logical consequence of being in "proximity" (whatever that term means in this sense) to God. Instead of inflicting even subjective suffering on sinners, God allows them to go their own separate way, and even though they suffer because of his absence, this is the lesser of two evils given their choices.

You can argue whether those two are ethical (after all, God created human nature and could have made it differently), but I can at least say that they can square away with the concept of a loving God. Those are intense theological discussions that my views might make it difficult for me to have in a way that wouldn't net me a warning from a moderator.
 
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woodpecker

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God created you and me, why?.....to love.

God is holy, definition:

Holiness means that God is transcendent (or unique and superior) in His greatness.

The second aspect of holiness (and the one we generally think of first) is the idea of purity.

God is good.

He does what is right and never does what is wrong. God is unstained by, and uncompromising with sin. God does not "bend a little" when it comes to wrong-doing. God always acts in a righteous manner because His nature is holiness. He is both great and good.

Hell was created for the fallen angels, not man or women.

None of you who are not born of a new spirit will understand heaven or hell.

When you really seek for Truth, and not philosophy's of man, the Holy Spirit will guide you to understanding.

the Holy Spirit opens your mind to your own sin, and how holy God is. When you are overwhelmed by this truth, you fall to your face in worship, and shame. You are not holy, only Jesus can cover you in holy righteousness.

Humans who submit to The Lord will spend eternity with God, HEAVEN, ....those who refuse to seek the the truth, being Jesus the Savior, can not be near a Holy God, you have made the choice....YOU....not God has condemned yourself to an eternity separated from a holy loving God.

There are many levels to hell, based on how you lived on this earth....the more selfish and evil, the more you suffer in hell.

You will have no excuse on judgment day, make a choice today, Jesus or spending eternity in regret
 
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Received

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"Everything that God does is good by definition" makes it possible to believe absolutely anything a person would otherwise consider evil or morally reproachable and attribute it to God. It also, because of this, makes God completely incomprehensible in terms of any standard of goodness we might have.

"The word good, applied to Him, becomes meaningless: like abracadabra. We have no motive for obeying Him. Not even fear. It is true we have His threats and promises. But why should we believe them? If cruelty is from His point of view 'good,' telling lies may be 'good' too. Even if they are true, what then? If His ideas of good are so very different from ours, what He calls Heaven might well be what we should call Hell, and vice-versa. Finally, if reality at its very root is so meaningless to us — or, putting it the other way round, if we are such total imbeciles — what is the point of trying to think either about God or about anything else? This knot comes undone when you try to pull it tight." -- C.S. Lewis
 
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Paradoxum

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Humans who submit to The Lord will spend eternity with God, HEAVEN, ....those who refuse to seek the the truth, being Jesus the Savior, can not be near a Holy God, you have made the choice....YOU....not God has condemned yourself to an eternity separated from a holy loving God.

There are many levels to hell, based on how you lived on this earth....the more selfish and evil, the more you suffer in hell.

You will have no excuse on judgment day, make a choice today, Jesus or spending eternity in regret

I don't refuse to seek God. I used to believe, but then I started having doubts. I tried to find solutions to those doubts, while seeking God, but it didn't help.

The fact that I don't believe isn't my fault. So my excuse is that I looked, and found nothing. I didn't know.
 
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Received

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A Grief Observed

I'm a lukewarm Lewis fan. He seems too much of a stylist in places, which makes his points appear grander than they are at times, but A Grief Observed is one of my very favorite books by anyone. All about his God-directed angst and at times near-atheistic wrath because of his wife's death. My favorite quote from that book (and one of my favorite quotes ever):

Sometimes, Lord, one is tempted to say that if you wanted us to behave like the lilies of the field you might have given us an organization more like theirs. But that, I suppose, is just your grand experiment. Or no; not an experiment, for you have no need to find things out. Rather your grand enterprise. To make an organism which is also spirit; to make that terrible oxymoron, a 'spiritual animal.' To take a poor primate, a beast with nerve-endings all over it, a creature with a stomach that wants to be filled, a breeding animal that wants its mate, and say, 'Now get on with it. Become a god.'​
 
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Nooj

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The Christian hope and promise is in a resurrection of the dead concomittant with a judgement. Our bodies are reunited with our spirit, and so we are us again. If we discount any idea of the soul as constituting who we are, which seems to me an un-Christian idea, then we are only 'us' when we are whole beings, bodily, mentally and spiritually.

If you believe in this, and in the judgement, as I do, then I believe the resulting suffering or happiness that comes from being with God or being separated from him isn't only a matter of our psychological and spiritual state, but our body as well. I do believe in a bodily kind of suffering in Hell.

1) The person is just a theological jerk, and probably the type who is impatiently waiting for the judgment day to reveal all the people he disagrees with and doesn't like get their fair reward. That is, his hatred for others he sees as outside his group blinds him to the reality of how terrible this type of suffering would inflict upon others.
One may believe in Hell - or rather, one may frolic in the thoughts of Hell, out of a deeply held ressentiment, a hatred of the other (which has no place in true justice!).

But what of the believer who believes he's burning in Hell already and this is just a foretaste of the Hell that awaits him after death? If we're speaking of the possible reasons why Hell has such a powerful grip on believers, I think it's far more likely that it comes from a deep personal insecurity and loathing of the self (consciousness of their sin) than a hatred of other persons. I know that's true of me. The only satisfaction I get from Hell is probably the unrepentant sinner's satisfaction with self-mortification (Christianity is supposed to be a happy religion).

As for eternity, here is what Wittgenstein says in Tractatus (6.4311):

If one understands eternity not as infinite duration but non-temporality, then one can say that he lives eternally who lives in the present. (original: Wenn man unter Ewigkeit nicht unendliche Zeitdauer, sondern Unzeitlichkeit versteht, dann kann man sagen, daß der ewig lebt, der in der Gegenwart lebt.)

I don't believe eternity is a day added on a day, or a million years added on a million years. I think of eternity as eternity because it's wholly removed from days, years, any units of time. Eternity is where time isn't. IMO it's just as (in)appropriate to compare Hell to a lengthy period of time as it is to compare it to a blink of an eye.
 
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Resha Caner

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It gets difficult to actually form a concept of hell from scripture alone (heaven also has this issue) because it just isn't described well in the bible. This is why literature such as Dante's Inferno matches up with popular ideas about hell than the bible does; writers and some religious officials attempted to fill in the missing detail the bible didn't have. Heck, there was a time period in which people described hell as cold, as it was deep underground and the light and warmth of the sun couldn't reach it.

Exactly. And what is the value of filling in those missing details except to create confusion? It seems more worthwhile to focus on what the Bible does say than what it doesn't say - maybe something like Matthew 22.
 
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seeingeyes

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A Grief Observed

I'm a lukewarm Lewis fan. He seems too much of a stylist in places, which makes his points appear grander than they are at times, but A Grief Observed is one of my very favorite books by anyone. All about his God-directed angst and at times near-atheistic wrath because of his wife's death.

Hands down the best one. I like C.S. Lewis for his clarity (even when I disagree with him!), but this book is what happens when you rip an Englishman's soul out and pour it on the table.

I read it for the first time a few months after my son died, and I raged and cried the whole way through it along with the author. Beautiful, horrible honesty. This is where the edifice crumbles to reveal the foundation.

This book (and the circumstances in which I read it) was integral to my reassessment of everything I believe, and the peace I have now, yet I can't find anyone else who's even heard of it! So thanks for bringing it up. (And a shout out to Clive, too!)
 
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