Hell

michaelmynameIs said:

apologies Gardianshua - but you cannot say of a particular scripture that "it is irrelevant" .

i have not in any way attempted to discredit any scripture you have posted .but accept them as they are.

it states plainly,without ambiguity that- "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
and also those that receive the mark of the beast or worship him will also be cast there.

no where does that imply non existence .
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and for me -speaking only opinion now - to be trapped in a lake of fire which torments forever and ever ..in darkness separated from G-d Who IS LIFE .. is not living .

it is stated clearly that before we receive the messiah we are also dead in our sins - we are trapped in sin and evil and God considers us as already dead (yet while we were dead in sin the messiah died for us ) so this second death is not a state of non existence but a state of eternal separation from God .
we who are in the Messiah need not fear this second death for we will be clothed a new in an incorruptible body After the Lord Yeshua returns ..but those who are not in the Messiah ,whose names are not written i the lambs book of life will remain disembodied -they have no hope of being re-clothed they remain existing in death .we know this because when the spirit of man becomes separated from his body ..we look at his body and we say - he is dead .. there is n hope of those who do not have Christ to be resurrected into a new body - they remain without body and without life
and they DO know that .
as those who have returned from that place have often testified

since no where does it state that these UN-redeemed disembodied spirits will be clothed in an incorruptible body -the Resurrection they receive is back into their mortal flesh and then they and their flesh are cast into outer darkness (separated from God who is light ) thrown into that place with the beast and satan ..where the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever and they are tormented day and night.

this is why the lord is So very concerned that we preach the good news of the messiah to every person in every corner of the earth as he desired that none should perish but that all should believe and have everlasting life ..which is to be reconciled to G-d and KNOW him.
this last paragraph we all agree on and thus we should put our differing perceptions of other things aside and concentrate on this greatest of commissions .

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Revelation 22:5
urqa.com

Q: If the smoke of their torment “ascendeth up for ever and ever” and “they have no rest day nor night,” doesn=t this indicate eternal suffering?

A: Revelation 14:10, 11; 20:10; 22:5 contain words that have been corrupted and changed by traditional religious dogma. Those words are the Greek “basanizo/basanismos” and “aion.” By simply opening any Greek-English lexicon, you will see sizeable differences between the definitions of the Greek words I mentioned and the definitions of the English words that were used to translate those Greek words. However, to be thorough, I will discuss not only the differences between the Greek and English definitions; I will also use scripture to define these words.

Basanizo/Basanismos

In Revelation 14:10, the word “basanizo” is translated as “tormented” (past tense verb)

In Revelation 14:11, the word “basanismos” is translated as “torment” (noun)

In Revelation 20:10, the word “basanizo” is translated as “tormented” (past tense verb)

Both these words come from the root “basanos,” which is defined by Strong’s as “a touchstone.” Webster defines the word “touchstone” as: “1. A stone by which metals are examined; a black, smooth, glossy stone… 2. Any test or criterion by which the qualities of a thing are tried; as money, the touchstone of common honesty.”

This might strike you as interesting considering that the definition of the Greek word that was translated as “torment,” not only has nothing to do with eternal conscious torment, but it is actually a process that tests purity. So we can see that to be tormented in these verses is compared to being rubbed upon a touchstone.

A good contextual scriptural definition of the word “basanizo” can be found in II Peter 2:8:

“(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [basanizo] his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;”

This passage talks about Lot dwelling in Sodom. In this verse, we see that Lot, even though he is called “righteous,” receives the same “torment” that those in the “lake of fire” receive. Of course, as we can see, Lot’s righteous soul is only being tested, and is not receiving eternal conscious torment

You might be saying, “Ok, so even if they are being tested and not barbequed, this is still happening ‘for ever and ever’” That’s where the other word “aion” comes in.



Aion

The concept of “eternity” is something that can be expected to be confused by the human mind. There are many theories about what “eternity” is. Some theories say eternity is “never ending time” while some say the complete opposite; “timelessness.” Regardless what the theories say, when you find a concept that is so commonly misunderstood by the human mind in a book that was translated by humans, a giant red flag should go up in your head. You should immediately sit down and study this topic knowing that the translators weren=t superhuman, but that they were humans just like so many others that confuse the topic of eternity.

The word “ever” in Revelation 14:11; 20:10; 22:5 was translated from the word “aion.” “Aion” is defined by Strong as “an age.”

Does an age last forever? Let’s check the scriptures:

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world [aion] began” (II Timothy 1:9).

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world [aion] are come” (I Corinthians 10:11).

So we see that an age begins and ends. In fact, “smoke rising up for ever and ever” begins and ends in just one short chapter in Revelation.

In Revelation 18:10-17, the great harlot of Babylon is destroyed in just one hour:

Verse 17 : “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought...”

Verse 18: “And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning...”

Now, the smoke of Babylon=s burning was visible in verse 18, however, by Revelation 19:3, we see that the smoke rose in the past tense:

“And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.”

So, we see that unless there was an endless amount of time between Revelation 18:18 and Revelation 19:3, “for ever and ever” does not mean eternity.

Aaron Locker

Revelation 22:5

By the way, I do not believe in Universal Reconciliation.

Universal reconciliation

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Christian theology, universal reconciliation (also called universal salvation, Christian universalism, or in context simply universalism) is the doctrine that all sinful and alienated human souls—because of divine love and mercy—will ultimately be reconciled to God.

michaelmynameIs said:

@ Gaurdian shua

lol-- Glad you added that last part

.thank you for the text /translation explanations they are interesting and well worth considerations
remember i have maintained that i do not speak in the sense of saying what i believe is doctrine and try always to remain open to correction.
it really is a matter of perception we are dealing with and in our own way i do not think either of us is right OR wrong .. we speak of the same Lord ,the same salvation, the same mercy the same judgment,and i feel in my heart the same Love of the lord Jesus toward you all and rejoice that I do (of course having just returned from a service and having strongly been in the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit i cant feel anything but the love of God toward all beings right now lol )..
anyway we just perceive one aspect differently - but Since we are neither judge in the end - that differing perception does not matter too much methinks .

your onto it with the perception of "eternity ". kind of the same example .. i lean to an understanding (extremely limited) of a constant state of "now" .. time to me is a matter of this temporal state in which we now live -it has a beginning and it has a fulfillment but with God all things then now and next ... are one and the same to him ..but now its going to do my head in ,as these things are to much for me to presently contain .

and i have really been enjoying the discourse on it

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Thanks for the reply. Have a blessed day.

visionary said:

Yeshua entered heaven in the flesh

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Christ would have entered back in with his new body. Our flesh can not withstand being in the literal presence of God. That is why Moses was not able to see God's true form.

toolite said:

Meaning of death. Theres death of the flesh, death of the soul meaning the soul still knows suffering. A person can also be alive in flesh but the soul is spiritually dead. The soul never ceases to exist.
GTG

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Quote: "The soul never ceases to exist." Only those who are granted immortality by Yahwah. That is the gift of God, life immortal.