Hell

[SecularHumanist08]

We have? Who said anything about tradition? We are talking about translations.

And the Septuagint "resolved" Old Testament "contradictions?" Do tell.p

YEARS OF FAMINE
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Choose thee either three years' famine... I Chronicles 21:11
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Shall seven years of famine come unto thee... II Samuel 24:13
(NIV) Accurate: Take your choice: three years of famine... I Chronicles 21:11
(NIV) Accurate: Shall there come upon you three years of famine... II Samuel 24:13

Though the Masoretic text shows conflicting amounts between three and seven years, the Greek Septuagint reveals the possible accurate
length of three years in both verses.

HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BEGAN TO REIGN?
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign... II Chronicles 36:9
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign... II Kings 24:8

(NIV) Accurate: Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king... II Chronicles 36:9

Pre-Masoretic manuscripts record the presumably correct age as being 18 in both verses.

THE AMOUNT OF KING SOLOMON'S HORSES & STALLS
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots... I Kings 4:26
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots... II Chronicles 9:25

(NIV) Correct: Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses... I Kings 4:26
(NIV) Correct: Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots... II Chronicles 9:25

The Septuagint states the possible correct amount as being 4,000 in both verses.

quoted from devineevidence.com

Agreed.

Do tell.

i have above my friend

I seem to come across to many that way, but no worries, mate, you will get over it once you get to know me.

good


Continued...

 

[SecularHumanist08]

And what do you do with these poor souls during the Millennial Kingdom?

Because you would certainly have to embrace an amillennial view in order to skirt this issue.

I have no idea what amillenial means. I try not to bother with all this a-pre-post stuff and just go with what I read. I won't skirt the issue. They are people left over who didn't die. Its just like a whittling down, we are priests and ministers to them.

All who die from Adam to the last saint saved will endure Sheol/Hades until they are resurrected and stand before God at the Great White Throne.

Paul disagrees with you:

"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:51-2

this is obviously at the end of the tribulation - prior to the millennial kingdom, it indicates that some will survive through it all. If we survive then, its possible that providentially God keeps others he wants us to minister. Also lets not forget the sheep and goats - although I don't specifically know when that comes, it may be at the end of the kingdom or prior. probably just prior.

So now you switch up?

What happened to extinction? Expiring?

Either you believe men endure eternal punishment or not. You can't rest upon this fence, SH.

I have repeatedly said that I am not an annihilationist - i see death as the annihilation - I also think our vocabulary is struggling here. I believe men endure eternal punishment, but its physical I don't believe in NDEs, or that when you die your spirit consciously leaves your body and goes to heaven or hell. Extinction to me is death without resurrection.

The Bible teaches that men are spirit and body, which composition results in a soul.

The spirit of a man is not a life-force as some would teach, but represents the individual who is a personality that is unique.

Look, you can make understanding scripture much easier by simply discarding the beliefs that find you in contradiction with other teacings of scripture.

I don't feign complete understanding of scripture - but I think that believing that anything of us consciously survives death - short of others' memory of us - contradicts scripture. The spirit is the breath of God, God restores our life, and gives us a new body - including memory. If you wish to believe that the spirit contains our memories and personality thats fine - the issue is with consciousness. If you say that the spirit returns to God, and our memories and personality go with it [like an email] then yeah I suppose I would agree.

I don't want the context to be lost, so let me post this again:

Thanks for the authorization, lol.

Still ahve no idea what you are on about

Then you think that people cease to exist when they die physically. You can't have it both ways. And you see the obvious error in such a statement yourself, which is why you are sidetracking and backstepping.

I am not sidetracking or backstepping, perhaps you see something I don't, I am answering each statement individually. Like I said perhaps our vocabulary is struggling here.I do believe that at death people cease to exist - There is certainly no conscious awareness, no torment, and no glory. We are dead - thats what Ecclesiastes says anyway.

Can I quote you again?

Oh...never mind, you get the point. lol

I don't know why you keep saying this.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yes but he is alive, and thus he still exists, therefore sin exists - just as the blood of christian martyrs cries out from the ground because those who killed them have yet to be punished [the wages of sin is death, if they are alive in hell being tortured then they are not dead]

I am not the one suggesting that we will look upon corpses for eternity.

And one false premise is that the damned "are being "tortured." This suggests a torturer, and scripture does not provide one. THeir torment will be even as torment is seen in the Tribulation:


Revelation 9:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.



Do you also see a scorpion standing over it's victim...gloating?

The torment will be for the most part a product of shame, regret, and sorrow.

You don't know that and neither do I!

What I do no is that God's dwelling place will be with man. It says so in Revelation 21.

Not sure why I wouldn't know that, there is nothing in scripture that suggests that this universe was created for anything but to house man in. In a general sense, that is.

When this creation is destroyed it will be replaced by new heavens and a new earth. There is nothing about the Lord creating a new abode for Himself.

Also I was under the impression that the third heaven was outside our universe, but in traditional view Hell is at the centre of the earth [which is actually Sheol/Hades]

Your impression is, I believe...correct. I take the view that the third Heaven speaks about the abode of God.

I am not sure what traditional view places Hell in the center of the earth, but just as you go on to say later, Hades is what is in voew there.

And apart from trying to set up an imagined argument to make it easier to defeat, I can see no relevance to what I said.

Why are you bringing in spirit realms? Hell is not 'spiritual', it is physical!

So there is no physical aspect to the spiritual? Think about that, SH: is not the Lord, Who is glorified...in Heaven?

Now consider something about the resurrected/glorified body:


Luke 24:39

King James Version (KJV)


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



Now contrast that with what you are saying here.

The damned go into hell in resurrected bodies. Is there anything to suggest that they will not also have bodies suited for the punishment that is over and over said to be eternal?

The Lake of Fire is Gehenna, not Hades. Hades or Sheol is the closest thing to your idea of hell.

I have no mistaken notions about any of these. The only thing we cannot be too dogmatic about is Tartarus.

Hades/Sheol is the place of the departed dead. The Lord expressly uses the concept of Hades to describe the disposition of Lazarus and the rich man, though, I think that due to the fact that we have a Lazarus that dies in scripture it is, in my opinion (and it is just supposition, there is no scriptural evidence that I have seen yet), that both were the same man. Which might go a long way to explaining the interaction between the three characters. Lazarus, rather than having been placed in what was also called Paradise (the side of Hades for the just), was in transition.

Thank you KJV.

It's a good translation by many men I believe were sincere in their efforts.

Not according to scripture:

very much according to scripture@

"In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there." Ps 37:10

As in most Old Testament passages used to justify soul slepp and annihilation, there is an unmistakable temporal context to this Psalm.


Psalm 37

King James Version (KJV)


1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.



The exhortation refers to what the wicked do...in this life. The reference is to physical death, not eternal judgment.

"I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more. Though you be sought for, you will never be found again, declares the Lord GOD.” Ez 26:21

Ezekiel 26:19-21

King James Version (KJV)


19 For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.



It is in the land of the living they shall not be found again.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

YEARS OF FAMINE
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Choose thee either three years' famine... I Chronicles 21:11
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Shall seven years of famine come unto thee... II Samuel 24:13
(NIV) Accurate: Take your choice: three years of famine... I Chronicles 21:11
(NIV) Accurate: Shall there come upon you three years of famine... II Samuel 24:13

Though the Masoretic text shows conflicting amounts between three and seven years, the Greek Septuagint reveals the possible accurate
length of three years in both verses.

HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BEGAN TO REIGN?
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign... II Chronicles 36:9
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign... II Kings 24:8

(NIV) Accurate: Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king... II Chronicles 36:9

Pre-Masoretic manuscripts record the presumably correct age as being 18 in both verses.

THE AMOUNT OF KING SOLOMON'S HORSES & STALLS
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots... I Kings 4:26
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots... II Chronicles 9:25

(NIV) Correct: Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses... I Kings 4:26
(NIV) Correct: Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots... II Chronicles 9:25

The Septuagint states the possible correct amount as being 4,000 in both verses.

quoted from devineevidence.com




i have above my friend




good


Continued...

Just wanted to give a general answer to this post by way of question:

What does this have to do with the LXX?

Certainly there are translational issues concerning the KJV, but again, it is a good translation.

Concering the Septuagint, keep in mind that this also is a translation, and unless you are like some of my more "fundamental" brothers, lol, then perhaps you would agree that we look at the original on everything, rather than place a translation above the original?

Now...back to the original post:

" His winnowing-shovel is in His hand, and He will make a thorough clearance of His threshing-floor, gathering His wheat into the storehouse, but burning up the chaff in unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:12 [Notice burning UP, not burning, but burning UP]

Again we have a Tribulational context dealing with physical death.

You would have to ask yourself if the saved with also be baptized with the Holy Spirit at the Great White Throne. There are those that do believe one is not saved until then, but there is plenty of evidence in scripture to deny such a doctrine.

"Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame "consumeth" the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel"


[definition of consume:
4. to destroy or be destroyed by burning, decomposition, etc. fire consumed the forest
3. (tr) to use up; expend my car consumes little oil]

Again we see a modern meaning forced on the original.

Did you read any of my posts?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Revelation 14:9-11


King James Version (KJV)



9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,


10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Now, to be fair, I will cede the point that and they have no rest day nor night" could be said to refer to their time on earth, it makes little difference. However, it destroys your view that the Lake of Fire is destroyed when the universe is destroyed, because it could not then be said "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."

And with the metaphor employed here we would not think that there is not a source for the smoke, would we?"

forever and ever could be translated "Ages unto Ages [EBR]", or for an indeterminate period of time [from the definiton of the greek "Aionios"]"

When the vast sum of the bible refers to the wicked as "chaff driven away by the wind[Ps 1]" Its hard to accept a potentially shaky translation of an obscure greek word that is still under debate today.

We don't have to rely on scholars to tell us what it means, SH.

As mentioned before, the contrast is between two equally enduring states: life...and death.

The bible has to be taken as a whole from Genesis to Revelation, not just a couple of verses.

Agreed.

However, one also has to recognize that certain knowledge was withheld, such as a clear understanding of Messiah, for example.

Scripture has to be viewed as progressive in knowledge. Because it is.

His abode is Earth "The Dwelling place of God is with man", I don't know what he will do with the Heaven outside of the Universe. There is no sin in his abode anyway.

Acts 7:49

King James Version (KJV)


49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?



This is quoted from Isaiah 66:1:


Isaiah 66:1

King James Version (KJV)


66 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?



Now consider the temporal context as He goes on to say:

2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

We do not think that in the eternal state there will be a question as to obedience to the Lord, or evil-doing, do we?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

" Rev 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'"



Notice how it says there will be no more pain...thats a pretty categorical statement, its saying in general - no death, no pain, no crying, no mourning. Now if the wicked are all already dead- no more death thats cool. but if the wicked are burning in hell - spiritually or physically - then there is still crying, still mourning, and DEFINITELY still pain.

Again a misapplication: note carefully...this is in reference to the redeemed, not the wicked.

As it says in Isaiah, what difference is there? Its a quote from Isaiah, talking about the same thing. Cast into - means thrown into - Gehenna!
Its saying, "it is better two lose both your hands than to be thrown onto the rubbish heap, where you will be consumed vigorously by maggots and fire." We are viewing it from 2000 years of catholic tradition, Devils with pitchforks and other such graphic images.

While we consider the metaphor employed, that is essentially what is being said:


Mark 9:43

King James Version (KJV)


43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:



Does the Lord state that the fire, the judgment...never shall be quenched...or not?

Consider also:

Mark 3:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.



Not even the most vaunted of dictionaries can give damnation a meaning of extinction.
Not when the integrity of the context is left intact.

Of course the punishment is the same, its quality not quantity. People collected up by Angels and cast into the lake of fire. Inevitably it is up to God what happens next.

Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment, just there will be degrees of reward. Not a one-size-fits-all judgment.

Well what does quench mean? Does it mean never end, no, it means satisfied. to satisfy your thirst - to quench your thirst.

lol...your not really serious, are you?

Read it again:


Mark 9:43

King James Version (KJV)


43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

So basically it will be as if the fire wants more, it doesnt mean never ending - it means powerful.

Well, if anyone ever accuses of you of not having a sense of humor, SH, I promise you, I will come to your defense.

it means it will burn with an appetite, very powerfully and vigorously, without satisfaction. Let me put it like this, if it were a never ending fire, why doesn't it say fire that burns without end?

It does, lol.


Mark 9:43

King James Version (KJV)



43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:




Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Be careful not to judge your brother as you are, after all you shall be judged by that same standard.

I have not, and will not...judge you, my friend.

Your doctrine, however...that is an entirely different ballgame. I am commanded of God to do exactly that.

And this I will do according to the knowedge God has given thus far.

I have already answered the "quenched" debacle.

I would suggest you read it again.

It is a fire that will never be satisfied. A better book to look on that is "the fire that consumes."

Better than scripture?

C'mon man...lol.

As I have said, I am not an annihilationist.

You say that, but your doctrine denies this.

I am a conditionalist, I believe in the same God as you, but I have a different view on certain things.

So show me where scripture teaches the "conditionalist doctrine." I hope it is not what you have offered so far.

And my hope is that we worship the same God, really. One said you say you are an atheist, but from what I have read, this does not appear to be the case. My hope is that perhaps once this was your testimony but now you confess the Lord Jesus Christ.

Like: I don't believe anyone is in hell right now,

And I would agree with that. It will not be until the end of the Tribuation that Hell receives her first occupants. That would be the Antichrist and the false prophet.

I don't believe anyone who dies now is in heaven -

Then you would find yourself arguing with Paul:

2 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)



8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


And we know the Lord is in Heaven, right? That is made clear here:


Acts 7:56

King James Version (KJV)


56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

or actually ever will be, Theres absolutely no scriptural evidence on that [Rev 21].

What part of Revelation 21 makes you think no-one will ever go to Heaven?

I will give you my take, and this is just my opinion, for the record: The current heavens (which Stephen saw opened) and current earth will be dissolved, and there will be a new heaven and earth. Now some bicker about the word kainos, but again we look at the whole counsel as well as the present context, and we see that it seems pretty clear that the elements undergo a drastic property change, and completely new heavens and earth are in view.

"New Jerusalem" I believe to be upon this new earth, and that which should have been in the beginning (which is man existing in a state in which God could walk among them) will be at this time established.

That does not mean that God will be leaving His eternal abode to dwell on a physical plane at all time. God is spirit, and that will never change.

Its better to "enter into life" Than to be cast into hell - well, by your definition - the person in hell is a thinking, living being, undergoing torment.

Not my definition, but that of the Lord.

So both are alive. Or, that person has both hands, and is thoroughly incinerated and consumed in Gehenna - dead. there, the contrast, life or death, not a living death, but death.

Think about the statement of the Lord for just a minute: would cutting off one's right hand leave him incapable of sin? Would gouging out an eye keep him from using the one peft to further his sin?

It is, I believe, hyperbole. I will usually say I would rather be drug through mud than to ___________ (and I fill in the blank with the objectionable subject) but I do not mean that literally, because being drug through the mud doesn't appeal to me much either.

Consider:


Matthew 18

King James Version (KJV)


1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


This is part of the discussion in view, the disciples asking "Who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

Immediately the Lord calls a little child unto Him, and who is a better example of those that have "entered life?" Now I don't seclude this as the only point the Lord is making, for I do believe we have an eternal context merged with the temporal, as we see in many of the parables.

Why is it important not to offend "one of these little ones?" Who would do such a thing?


How about the disciples themselves?

Matthew 19:13-15

King James Version (KJV)


13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.





7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!


Those that offend are in grave peril.



8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.


I believe the Lord to be using hyperbole, primarily because if your hand or foot "offend thee," it would be necessary to cut off both to make sure it is not repeated, right? Here we see reference to both feet, and again we ask the question, "Would cutting off our feet...keep us from sin?

Again the answer is no, for sin is a heart issue, not a hand, eye, or foot issue.

And again we see the everlasting fire mentioned.


9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.


Would one eye removed keep the other from causing offense? Again, sin is a heart issue.

Here, it is hell fire which is mentioned.



10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.


We see another instance of "despising:"



Luke 18:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.



So it appears to me tht hyperbole is employed, though that does not mean that the exhortation negates the warning, which is all too clear.


11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


And we see here that the same word used here...


Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


...is used. It describes a state of being for the individual(s) in both verses, which does not mean extinction or expiration.


And just a few verses to conclude this response in regards to seeking that which is lost:


Ezekiel 34

King James Version (KJV)


1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.




A clear indictment upon the "shepherds" of Israel.



9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.


God Himself will seek after that which is scattered, His sheep.



22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.


Whole lot could be said here, and given the fact you probably already think I have tried to talk you to death (lol), I will just say that here we see prophecy concerning Messiah with a clear focus on the current "shepherds" of that time (which I personally believe to be clearly those in leadership, both kings and religious) and the sheep.

In a nutshell Christ will come and throw down all rule but His own, and at this time will the New Covenant be established. We see this fulfilled only partially, even as we see a double reference in some prophecy concerning judgment. Israel has not received Christ yet, but she will, of that we can be assured of. We that are in Christ have entered into covenant with God under provision and detail of the New Covenant. Now consider these statements again:


Matthew 18

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.



Matthew 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Both words translated "lost" are the same word used for destruction. In Ezekial 34 we see description of that destruction. In none of them do we see a context which supports annihilation, expiration, or extinction.

It is a conscious state in which as it is written their "house is left desolate unto them.

And I think that is it for the evening. I had the great fortune of being sick today which afforded me some time which otherwise I would not have had, and it will be back to the grind tomorrow.

Look forward to discussing this further.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Perhaps one more, lol.

Considering that this mentions Hinnom, its possible it refers to Gehenna. But its again unlikely that this refers to final judgment. Because there is something left for the birds to eat. Isaiah and Jesus refer to this as Worms that don't die, and Fire that isn't quenched. utter destruction. I only take Isaiah 66 because its quoted by Jesus. The implication is not my own but Jesus himself.

That is exactly what is in view, SH. This is why the Lord presents the image of a "landfill" that is continually burning.

What He makes clear is that the fire shall never be quenched. Going back to your analogy of being thirsty, you stop drinking when that thirst is quenched, right? WHich means the thirst is no more. In gehenna, for the fire to be quenched it would be equivalent to it going out. Keep in mind that the fire represents judgment, so the intent is that the judgment never ends.

Of course they are cast alive in there, thank you..this has helped, some will be destroyed by fire, others by beasts. I didnt know that. But even so, being eaten by birds is not exactly "hell", but you can't deny that the Lake of Fire is hell can you?

Wouldn't think of it.

So tell me brother - how does a remnant slain by Jesus and eaten by birds [evidently physical] and a lake of fire [evidently physical] compare to the traditional concept of hell? Its not spiritual, and it doesn't have any comparison to what is taught in churches to millions of people.

Unfortunately caricaturization is on both sides. Also just as unfortunate are those that teach only what they are taught. The Lord said it would be so. So the "tradtional" views on a number of subjects are themselves subject to scripture. One might be right on one point but butchers the word to prove his point. I think we are all guilty of that from time to time.

I try never to "prove" a point at the expense of scripture.

The "Supper of the Great God" comes at the end of the Tribulation, and we see that in ch.19. At the end of the Millennial Kingdom we see another temporal scene of the destruction of the wicked:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



This judgment is swift and sure. There is no calling to the fowls and beasts, for when this takes place, the earth itself will undergo that which Peter describes here:


2 Peter 3:10-13

King James Version (KJV)


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


And these are two entirely different events which are separated by the thousand years which is the Millennial Kingdom.

The Lord also spoke of this here:


Luke 17:34-37

King James Version (KJV)


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Evidently this is the Millennial rebellion.
[/quote]

No, it is the end of the Tribulation.

Consider for a moment that "one will be taken, the other left." We see that those taken are taken in judgment, whereas those that are left will enter into the earthly Kingdom promised of God to Israel (and ultimately the world).

We will see then prophecy such as this one...


Isaiah 65:25

King James Version (KJV)


25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.




Isaiah 11:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.



I look forward to seeing just such a day.

But you have just seen and quoted for yourself the Lake of Fire mentioned as a real physical Lake! How can you do mental gymnastics like that? The Great White Throne judgment is immediately after the rebellion - the Lake is right there ready and hot - do you not see the correlation? You could be thrown alive into lava - you would quickly be dead.

If we force a temporal context, rather than an eternal one.

Fire represents judgment. We are told that the mist of darkness and the blackness of darkness is the fate of the wicked and demons. Could we have fire and blackness at the same time? It is descriptive of the judgment itself. What form it takes is described with the term lake, but that it will be a burning lake or not I would not say, exactly. When this word is used to speak of the "lake" of Gennesaret, I believe that the sea of Galilee is in view.

The picture is, I think, of a (seemingly) endless expanse, much like we view space. I don't think there will be shores, waves, etc, which would normally be associated with a lake. For that matter, I tend to view this as simply an existence of separation from God, and believe it quite possible it will not be accessible from the New Creation, even as Hades is not today. And I do not think that the saints will forever be subject to viewing it.

Death speaks of separation, and this is the ultimate separation.

Resurrection - you will be revived, judged, executed. Something that people wish could be done today to people like Hitler. Its nothing short of tying up loose ends.

So why not just end it upon physical death?

I believe firmly because scripture teaches the eternality of damnation that when the dead are resurrected, though they are devoid of the LIFE which Christ gives, they will have bodies suited for the eternal punishment spoke about in scripture.

It is a horrible concept to be sure, but all the more reason to be about the Lord's work, that some might be spared this fate.

Judge not lest ye be Judged.

No judgment can be seen in my statement (or my question, for that matter), it is a fact. I could fill this thread with pages of just such accusations.

But, to be fair, it comes from both sides, right?

Have I accused you of not believing scripture? I've accused you of being arrogant, thanks to sentences like that.

lol...that's all right, I have been called worse.

Look, I don't like to have to seem harsh at times, but sometimes pointed questions have to be asked.

And it will always offend when some hig brow (lol) thinks he can speak authoritatively, but the fact is that scripture makes definite doctrinal statement and to repeat those statements should not make someone arrogant.

Not to mention, I won't hesitate to yank a chain now and then...forgive me for that...lol. You see, not only do I think I am right about this, but I also think I have a sense of humor, so it is doubly rough.

The fire won't be quenched, but quench does not mean stop it means feed to full. my thirst cannot be quenched. You don't put out thirst, you satisfy it.

Same thing.

Let's see this word used elsewhere:


Ephesians 6:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


1 Thessalonians 5:19

King James Version (KJV)


19 Quench not the Spirit.




The fiery darts are to be quenched, not satisfied.

We do not satisfy the Spirit if We Quench Him.



Matthew 12:20

King James Version (KJV)


20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.


Smoking flax will be quenched by the Lord at the appointed time, but...the fire (judgment) of Hell shall never be quenched.

Okay, Secular Humanist, I have enjoyed it thoroughly. You have actually brought to the table a few things which better helps us to consider this great debate.


Don't think too harshly of me, as in view is a topic that I for one believe that is discussed in great detail far too little. As we learn and grow our eyes are opened to scripture to encompass more of that which the Lord has taught. I get the impression that you are not one that will not consider what is being said, and more importantly will consider the word of God which is not familiar to you. I humbly suggest that before making a conclusion, that at the least you look into this a little further. There are a number of issues that have to be dealt with, among them distinguishing temporal from eternal context (as we have discussed concerning the difference between a Millennial context and a Tribulational); distinguishingbetween physical life and eternal life (possessed only those born again); and believe it or not...what exactly scripture means when it speaks of "the soul."

Just to name a few.

I would invite you to read here, as I have been discussing this very issue with some other fellows. Much is discussed there if you are interested.

Be back when I can, which, unless I am under the weather again tomorrow, will likely be this weekend.

God bless.

 

[DeaconDean]

For most of those 1500 years, Satan ruled in the form of the Roman Catholic Church. Are you sure that you want to defend your unbiblical position using Satan as your source?

Sure he does.

Sure he does, he is a well known anti-calvinist.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

You disregard the writings of godly men and say not only are they wrong, but you are right because God showed it to you. If their writings don't agree with you, they are wrong and you are a true messenger from God?

Bingo!

Sounds so much like another poster in the GT area, that was personally taught by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit so therfore, more learned men are wrong.

Heard this all before.

No need to confess Jesus as the Son of the Living God, died on a cross for our sins, just recognoze God in His creation, make a choice to follow after Him and Christ's redeeming death and blood will be applied to you and make you saved.

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


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