• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Status
Not open for further replies.

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
710
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟147,883.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Here is my problem with the whole theory of annilationism.

The same doctrine proposed and supported by such groups as the JW's.

If the doctrine is true, why be saved in the first place?

If it is true that after a certain amount of time burning and paying for your sins, you burn up into nothing, you have essentially escaped eternal damnation.

So why be saved in the first place.

And it breeds complacency. If your gonna be annilated in the end, why not just live any way you wish, there will be no eternal penalty?
Why be saved in the first place? Because Heaven is WAY BETTER than annihilation. I'll choose Heaven anytime when compared with the obliteration of annihilation.

Thankfully annihilation is not a biblical doctrine, but even evangelical stalwart, John Stott, was agnostic concerning annihilation as he thought some Scriptures could point in that direction - but he was not dogmatic about it.

He's in the Lord's presence now so he will know the truth about his agnostic position concerning annihilation.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am doing a message this weekend on Hell. the more I think about it the more disturbing it is -- everlasting torture? I am a Bible believing Christian. It just seems so harsh -- everlasting punishment for temporal crimes. What am I missing?

The only reason people go to Hell is for rejecting God's plan of salvation. All other sins are forgivable.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
710
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟147,883.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
The only reason people go to Hell is for rejecting God's plan of salvation. All other sins are forgivable.
Is this an indicator that you are not a TULIP supporter? The reason I ask is because if people are irresistibly drawn to Christ and are unconditionally elected, how can they reject God's plan of salvation? Only those who are "in" will come. The rest are doomed.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is this an indicator that you are not a TULIP supporter? The reason I ask is because if people are irresistibly drawn to Christ and are unconditionally elected, how can they reject God's plan of salvation? Only those who are "in" will come. The rest are doomed.

Oz

That "elected" thing is a bunch of horse manure. Anyone is free to accept or reject God's plan of salvation. John 3:16 "...whosoever..." anyone.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
710
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟147,883.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
That "elected" thing is a bunch of horse manure. Anyone is free to accept or reject God's plan of salvation. John 3:16 "...whosoever..." anyone.
I think that you are way too harsh with this kind of language. However, I'm with you on the human responsibility (free will) associated with salvation. Here's a brief article,
'The Common Ground of Lutherans and Arminians With Regard to the Free Will of Men'

I have written a brief article, 'Is prevenient grace still amazing grace?'

In Christ, Oz
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That "elected" thing is a bunch of horse manure. Anyone is free to accept or reject God's plan of salvation. John 3:16 "...whosoever..." anyone.

John 3:16 doesn't say everyone, just whosoever. There is a big difference. And, God is still in charge of how His Universe works, regardless of how man wants it to work. If God elects a person for salvation, that person will fit into John 3:16 and Whosoever. Mankind is still responsible as he or she was born into sin and will continue in sin unless God calls that person to salvation. God doesn't condemn a person needlessly. He does save those whom He wishes. God has that prerogative.

Romans

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me
thus?

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction:

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not
my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,553
710
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟147,883.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
John 3:16 doesn't say everyone, just whosoever. There is a big difference. And, God is still in charge of how His Universe works, regardless of how man wants it to work. If God elects a person for salvation, that person will fit into John 3:16 and Whosoever. Mankind is still responsible as he or she was born into sin and will continue in sin unless God calls that person to salvation. God doesn't condemn a person needlessly. He does save those whom He wishes. God has that prerogative.
God so loved "the world" and "whoever" make salvation available to all.

On what basis does God elect? 1 Peter 1:1-2 is very clear, "To those who are elect exiles ... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

Human beings cannot be responsible for accepting or rejecting salvation if they are unconditionally elected, atonement is limited, and they are irresistibly drawn by God. Human responsibility is thrown out the window with that kind of theology. "Choose this day whom you will serve" (Josh 24:15) is not in that kind of theology.

If God chooses to "save those whom He wishes. God has that prerogative" (your language), then God is the one who sends people to hell. That's the logical conclusion because he chose to reject a large hunk of humanity down through church history.

God's choice is based on his foreknowledge. Jesus died for the world (not the world of the elect) and whosoever may come. That's Bible.

Oz
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God so loved "the world" and "whoever" make salvation available to all.

On what basis does God elect? 1 Peter 1:1-2 is very clear, "To those who are elect exiles ... according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

Human beings cannot be responsible for accepting or rejecting salvation if they are unconditionally elected, atonement is limited, and they are irresistibly drawn by God. Human responsibility is thrown out the window with that kind of theology. "Choose this day whom you will serve" (Josh 24:15) is not in that kind of theology.

If God chooses to "save those whom He wishes. God has that prerogative" (your language), then God is the one who sends people to hell. That's the logical conclusion because he chose to reject a large hunk of humanity down through church history.

God's choice is based on his foreknowledge. Jesus died for the world (not the world of the elect) and whosoever may come. That's Bible.

Oz

Perhaps, you should read the quoted verses in my post again. They say the opposite of your chosen understanding of them. I will go with Paul's understanding of God's Will. That's Bible.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
John 3:16 doesn't say everyone, just whosoever. There is a big difference. And, God is still in charge of how His Universe works, regardless of how man wants it to work. If God elects a person for salvation, that person will fit into John 3:16 and Whosoever. Mankind is still responsible as he or she was born into sin and will continue in sin unless God calls that person to salvation. God doesn't condemn a person needlessly. He does save those whom He wishes. God has that prerogative.

Romans

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me
thus?

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction:

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the
vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the
Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not
my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

How sad for you that you live and propagate a lie discouraging others in the process. You will have to answer to God for that.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, there are many godly men in that same boat with me.

Oh, you do realize that I simply posted verses from the Holy Scripture, right? So, who is misquoting God?

You are putting a wrong meaning on those verses. God will save anyone who comes to Him. He does not pre-select those who will be saved. A number of "Godly men" are propagating that same lie as you.
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are putting a wrong meaning on those verses. God will save anyone who comes to Him. He does not pre-select those who will be saved. A number of "Godly men" are propagating that same lie as you.

Paul is one of those in that boat with me.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We are called according to God's purpose, not ours. No one can boast that they were so good that God had to save them. Well, I am in good company with my beliefs. If you are quite comfortable with yours, that is fine. Live your life in accordance with your beliefs.



 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Paul is one of those in that boat with me.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We are called according to God's purpose, not ours. No one can boast that they were so good that God had to save them. Well, I am in good company with my beliefs. If you are quite comfortable with yours, that is fine. Live your life in accordance with your beliefs.




"Purpose" means service for Him. No one is save because they believe they are good. They are saved by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus when they choose to follow God. Have you never been told this?
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
"Purpose" means service for Him. No one is save because they believe they are good. They are saved by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus when they choose to follow God. Have you never been told this?

Well, yeah, I have heard about people choosing God. Normally, it is after the Grace of God enables the person to choose Him rather than the world. Until that time, people are slaves to the god of this world and they cannot choose God without God choosing them first. If this is the first time you are hearing this, you might want to give it some thought.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, yeah, I have heard about people choosing God. Normally, it is after the Grace of God enables the person to choose Him rather than the world. Until that time, people are slaves to the god of this world and they cannot choose God without God choosing them first. If this is the first time you are hearing this, you might want to give it some thought.

No, it's not the first time. I've been a Believer since 1949 and heard this lie many times. God does not cause people to choose Him. They choose Him in response to the Gospel or because they see Him in His creation.
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, it's not the first time. I've been a Believer since 1949 and heard this lie many times. God does not cause people to choose Him. They choose Him in response to the Gospel or because they see Him in His creation.

Ok, I have a question for you. Do you think that Paul knew what he was talking about when he wrote his books under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Ok, I lied. I have two questions for you. What was God saying in these verses?

Romans
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom​
he will he hardeneth.
 
Upvote 0

Skala

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Mar 15, 2011
8,964
478
✟42,869.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are putting a wrong meaning on those verses. God will save anyone who comes to Him. He does not pre-select those who will be saved. A number of "Godly men" are propagating that same lie as you.

The only ones that are willing to come to Him are the ones he chooses and draws to Christ.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok, I have a question for you. Do you think that Paul knew what he was talking about when he wrote his books under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Ok, I lied. I have two questions for you. What was God saying in these verses?

Romans
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom​
he will he hardeneth.

Those Scripture are talking about God's love and mercy not resurrection. You might want to find a Bible that is printed in our language.
 
Upvote 0

phoenixdem

Newbie
Nov 28, 2010
1,158
34
South Dakota
✟24,080.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Those Scripture are talking about God's love and mercy not resurrection. You might want to find a Bible that is printed in our language.

Bob, I can tell that your buttons are being pushed. It does little good for you to become angry and please don't try to say that you aren't. You last sentence shows your anger.

You said above that people can choose God by seeing Him in nature. That is most unbiblical, Bob. Christ is the one, the only one, way to God. It isn't nature, it isn't man's inherent goodness, it is only Christ. So let me just tell you that Christ is the one true way to salvation.

He is the shepherd and we are His sheep. Christ took on our sins on the Cross and died as the ultimate blood sacrifice for our sins. It is only when we come to realize that we cannot save ourselves. and we must accept Christ as God's sacrifice for our sins and ask Him to forgive us our sins and live within us as He has promised to do when we do that. But, it is God's calling, His predestination of us, that can bring us to that point.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
94
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟36,005.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Bob, I can tell that your buttons are being pushed. It does little good for you to become angry and please don't try to say that you aren't. You last sentence shows your anger.

You said above that people can choose God by seeing Him in nature. That is most unbiblical, Bob.

No it's not. Read Romans 1:19,20.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.