Hell?

[Dharma Wheel]

raze,

I remember from my own ancient fundamentalist days, asking one of the more elder of the brethren, "how can we be happy in heaven when we know that others we have loved are suffering in hell?". He said something like...."When I want any sort of answer I turn to the Bible. It says that He shall wipe every tear from the eye. I don't know how He's going to do it, but I believe it."

Yeah, they use that to try to make the fact that thousands would be suffering in hell, including family and friends, sound nice. But it would make their god a thought criminal as NO ONE would naturally be happy in heaven knowing that, say, their faithful and loving non-Christian wife or father or brother is being tortured eternally. So either their will be despair in heaven or god would be brain-washing people into feeling joy and forgetting their non-Christian loved ones. It just strikes me as exceptionally cruel and totalitarian. And I mean no offense, but the only reason Christians seem to agree with it is because it is the act of god. If a dictator acted in such a way he would get their scorn, even if he was acting in the name of their god.

Of course, not all Christians believe in such views

 

[Dharma Wheel]

Thought I would just leave the "agreed" in, so I can chalk up another success!!

OK

But we do seem to agree.

Another point is the verse in Ephesians, where it is declared that the elect are "chosen before the foundation of the world." I would just ask....can even an omnipotent God forsee the totally free choice of a being not yet created?

I think that the idea that he is omnipresent means that he exists in all time-streams, or outside of time if you will, and thus can see everything and be anywhere. It is similar to in Hinduism.

That sort of question does my head in, just not up to it! But over to the logicians......

Religion can be like that!

 

[Robban]

Forgive and forget. We have heard and we have read that we are to forgive, but in most cases it is a case, not so much, of should forgive, but can we?
Forget, is not possible.
Our memory is an enormous wonder, we do not forget one iota of all we have seen, heard,thought, said or done. So that we are able to function, there is a filter in place.
But then comes a time when the filter is removed, and all is revealed.
It is not like there is someone up there in the sky, with a notebook in his hand. It will be a time of much shame, in varying degrees.
That is the whole point of repentence, the recording tape can be wiped clean. But don,t come and say God is unjust.

 

[JJWhite]

Forgive and forget. We have heard and we have read that we are to forgive, but in most cases it is a case, not so much, of should forgive, but can we?
Forget, is not possible.
Our memory is an enormous wonder, we do not forget one iota of all we have seen, heard,thought, said or done. So that we are able to function, there is a filter in place.
But then comes a time when the filter is removed, and all is revealed.
It is not like there is someone up there in the sky, with a notebook in his hand. It will be a time of much shame, in varying degrees.
That is the whole point of repentence, the recording tape can be wiped clean. But don,t come and say God is unjust.

Y'know what you just reminded me of, Robban? A talk on two of the Names of Allah mentioned in the Qur'an that I had attended a few years ago.

Al-Ghafoor: The Forgiving and Al-'Afuww: The Pardoning

The speaker was mentioning how in the Arabic language, if I remember correctly, the root of the first means to blot something out, where it still technically exists, but can no longer be seen, where as the second means to erase something completely so it is no longer in existence.

One of 'Aa'ishah's favorite prayers was: "Allaahumma innaka 'afuwwun tuhibbul-'afwa fa'fu 'anee"

"Oh, God. You are the One Who Pardons, and You Love Pardoning, so Pardon me."

I love that prayer.

 

[Robban]

Y'know what you just reminded me of, Robban? A talk on two of the Names of Allah mentioned in the Qur'an that I had attended a few years ago.

Al-Ghafoor: The Forgiving and Al-'Afuww: The Pardoning

The speaker was mentioning how in the Arabic language, if I remember correctly, the root of the first means to blot something out, where it still technically exists, but can no longer be seen, where as the second means to erase something completely so it is no longer in existence.

One of 'Aa'ishah's favorite prayers was: "Allaahumma innaka 'afuwwun tuhibbul-'afwa fa'fu 'anee"

"Oh, God. You are the One Who Pardons, and You Love Pardoning, so Pardon me."

I love that prayer.

, Two smilies JJ, have a pleasant weekend, and all folks everywhere.

 

[Tariki]

Always liked the story.......

A man was looking for a good church to attend and he happened to enter one in which the congregation and the preacher were reading from their prayer book. They were saying..."We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done." The man dropped into a seat and sighed with relief as he said to himself, "Thank goodness, I've found my crowd at last."

 

[Rationalt]

Y'know what you just reminded me of, Robban? A talk on two of the Names of Allah mentioned in the Qur'an that I had attended a few years ago.

Al-Ghafoor: The Forgiving and Al-'Afuww: The Pardoning

The speaker was mentioning how in the Arabic language, if I remember correctly, the root of the first means to blot something out, where it still technically exists, but can no longer be seen, where as the second means to erase something completely so it is no longer in existence.

One of 'Aa'ishah's favorite prayers was: "Allaahumma innaka 'afuwwun tuhibbul-'afwa fa'fu 'anee"

"Oh, God. You are the One Who Pardons, and You Love Pardoning, so Pardon me."

I love that prayer.

That bolded portion is hilarious.The Quran says otherwise.

The One who disbelieves in muhammad is in deep trouble.Keeping aside the murder verses the following is a glimpse of Allah's tirades against disbelievers.

One fellow named Abu lahab incurred Anger of Muhammad while he was in mecca.The wrath of Muhammad cames pouring down;In Allah's words.

Quran Chapter 111:

1.Perish the two hands of Abû Lahab (an uncle of the Prophet), and perish he!
2. His wealth and his children (etc.) will not benefit him!
3. He will be burnt in a Fire of blazing flames
4. And his wife too, who carries wood (thorns of Sadan which she used to put on the way of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) , or use to slander him
5. In her neck is a twisted rope of Masad (palm fibre)

The Surah 111 was a meccan surah when muhamamd did'nt gather any fighters.

8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe..
7:182 And those who deny Our revelations - step by step We lead them on from whence they know not.

Unbeliever dogs:

007.176 And had We willed We could have raised him by their means, but he clung to the earth and followed his own lust. Therefor his likeness is as the likeness of a dog: if thou attackest him he panteth with his tongue out, and if thou leavest him he panteth with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of the people who deny Our revelations.

There are verses like this in every chapter of Quran.

 

[Meepy]

A recurring theme here has been the injustice of a temporary offense receiving eternal punishment. Here's the summary of an exhaustive study of the Bible's original languages:

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

you don't believe the eternalness of hell razor?

oh by the way, you forgot Tartarus in that list.

 

[kivi]

GO STEELERS

razeontherock>>
Is that the same as Nineveh, as in with Jonah?

Yes.

 

[razeontherock]

If god is truly just and merciful, he would not allow people to eternally testify, and not learn any lesson from their punishment. And, of course, he would not have allowed man to have free will unless he was not going to eternally punish those who do not choose him.

And you know this how?

YHWH is, according to Judaeo-Christian theology, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. It means he knew that man was going to fall before he had even started his acts of creation, and he would also have been able to stop it. It is illogical to hold such a being accountable for falling, when it is the creators fault for creating an imperfect specimin that he could have fixed easily. It seems petty and cruel (''a good work man never blames his tools (or creations''). If, however, you do not believe in an eternal hell and believe that hell is a lesson in goodness or eternal knowledge, then it deals with many problems in the YHWH story.

False dilemma. Christ removes all these problems! If you understood how, you wouldn't have written this.

 

[razeontherock]

Another point is the verse in Ephesians, where it is declared that the elect are "chosen before the foundation of the world." I would just ask....can even an omnipotent God forsee the totally free choice of a being not yet created?

That sort of question does my head in, just not up to it!

That's my mind-boggling G-d!

 

[razeontherock]

You are misunderstanding terminology. Utilitarian - punishment that serves to reform. Retributive - punishment without reform. Karma is quite clearly Utilitarian, so do not presume that I, a Buddhist, do not know something within MY own faith, please. Why do you Christians think you have a right to insult and denigrate non-Christians in such a way?

You are choosing to feel insulted and denigrated. Even if that were really there in my words, (which it's not) this would violate the profession of your own Faith, in favor of practicing being thin-skinned.

When you say "spare me your quotes!" Which explain the very things you ask about, you prove your questions to be insincere. Such as:

Why can he not be moral and kind, to counter the cruelty of the world of the living?

This is accomplished, past tense, effective NOW. Sorry you can't see that.

 

[razeontherock]

you don't believe the eternalness of hell razor?

You missed my previous post where I declined to opine, but merely lamented this information being buried.

 

[Tariki]

You missed my previous post where I declined to opine, but merely lamented this information being buried.

Read all about it folks, in the "Inescapable Love of God" by Thomas Talbot.....available at all good bookstores (as the saying goes)

Alternatively, google "Thomas Talbot", track down a "put down", and rest easy!

"But there are not a few who would be indignant at having their belief in God questioned, who yet seem greatly to fear imagining Him better than He is" (George MacDonald)

 

[Meepy]

You missed my previous post where I declined to opine, but merely lamented this information being buried.

why did you decline

 

[Dharma Wheel]

You are choosing to feel insulted and denigrated. Even if that were really there in my words, (which it's not) this would violate the profession of your own Faith, in favor of practicing being thin-skinned.

Not really, I read things how they are meant. How would a Christian feel if they were told they didn't know something in their own faith?

No, I am not insulted or denigrated, personally, though often people like you TRY to make non-Christians feel that way, I am just annoyed at your anti-non-Christian arrogance, the fact you tried to insult me rather than to discuss things rationally.

When you say "spare me your quotes!" Which explain the very things you ask about, you prove your questions to be insincere. Such as:

I never ASKED for any quotes from the Bible at all. Infact, though I might be wrong, I do not recall asking you anything. I gave my opinion that the hell of the fundamentalist is incompatible with logic, that is not a question at all, and I do not see how claiming that I know nothing about karma and your misunderstanding of utilitarian justice and karma, is any sort of polite answer at all. I see a ditch forming around your feet, I am afraid to say.

This is accomplished, past tense, effective NOW. Sorry you can't see that.

Now is the time for you to provide real proof that the wickedness of the world is actually being countered by your god. Have fun with that.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

And you know this how?

Because I am basing it on logic and not what an old (and admittedly important, in some ways) book tells me.

False dilemma. Christ removes all these problems! If you understood how, you wouldn't have written this.

No, it is not a false dilemma. Jesus doesn't clear up any of the problems with your reading of the Bible, he adds new ones. Apparently man is blamed for the fall of Adam, a being created imperfect by a god who could have made him perfect and stopped him for falling. To appease himself, your god sacrifices himself to himself so he can allow believers to enter heaven by asking ''Jesus'' for forgiveness. If you choose to follow Jesus, who has no real evidence to support his deeds or even existence, you will go to heaven, if not you will go to hell and suffer eternally, learning no lesson that could improve you. This would mean that you do not reap what you sow (e.g. even if you do good deeds, you go to hell if you are a non-believer) nor do you have any real free will. And worst of all, you have no chance to learn from your ''mistake'' when you die.

 

[razeontherock]

Again, if you understood how Christ has already solved all these problems, you wouldn't have written this. Sorry you can't see how He has, but understanding it is not something that comes cheap.

 

[Tariki]

In some ways I feel much of the counterclaims here come down to the ways in which different faiths "operate", in this case Christianity and Buddhism. I'll put it from a Buddhist perspective.

Christianity claims to have a revelation that would be unknowable by the unaided human intellect. From a Buddhist perspective, this creates all manner of problems.

The Bible begins "In the beginning God........" and - in the words of the Theravada Elder Nyanaponika Thera - thus leads away into an imaginery beyond. The Buddhist scripture, the Dhammapada, begins......Mind precedes all things, dominates them, creates them......

Imaginery how? By positing that which is unverifiable. It sets its "questions" to "man" based upon theological statements......."man has fallen"........"God is Holy"........."God cannot look upon sin"........" to forgive God must find some way to do so while allowing for his justice".....etc etc.............Until the questions are such that only Christianity itself can provide the answer.

So "twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved"....Just so! Christianity thus creates the "fear", then "relieves it". Perhaps why so many have abandoned it, now it no longer has the clout to create the fear.

No doubt this all seems unfair. So be it. No doubt many can claim some existential reality to their "fallen state". So be it. I don't doubt it.

Yet to a certain extent, this is where Buddhism starts. With the existential reality of suffering. It builds from there. Not from unverifiable truths that have the need of a theological interpretation of a "holy" book to take effect. And of course, since sola scriptua was declared, the book is now interpreted in many ways, causing even more confusion to the unbeliever.

Perhaps I've said enough.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

Again, if you understood how Christ has already solved all these problems, you wouldn't have written this. Sorry you can't see how He has, but understanding it is not something that comes cheap.

That seems like the usually Christian rhetoric, I am afraid, but I belief man should judge the Bible based on the rules and morality of man. Jesus Christ solved none of those problems if men are still to be caste into hell for an eternity, his sacrifice (to himself, apparently) would be pointless. He would only offer salvation to those that believe in him, and thus he would not be saving mankind. What is the point of dying for the sins of mankind, if many of mankind still has to suffer because of it? He adds nothing new (apart from a new focus to salvation), unless you believe that Jews all went to hell because they didn't have Christ.