Hell?

[Tariki]

Can you imagine darkness. Aloneness. Just you and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. But there is a remedy for those who believe themselves their own god. Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another? I doubt it.

There is a passage in one of the Theravada Texts that describes the Buddha going down into the depths of hell, carrying a lamp. By its light there are those dwelling there who are heard to exclaim..."Ah, there are others here besides myself!" I've often reflected upon this, and think that maybe such a revelation is the beginning (well, at least, one possible beginning) of the moral sense, the developement of empathy.

 

[Robban]

"By the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil." Proverbs 16:6

Or in a more fun version, the first 5 seconds:

YouTube - Petra - Judas' Kiss

Ray, "Fear of the Lord" means also, Awe, Respect, Reverence, the way I understand it is that, even if we are completely alone, we should know that we are not. . Re the vid, didn,t quite understand it, I wish I knew how to send a vid onto a forum.

 

[b&wpac7]

But there is a remedy for those who believe themselves their own god.

So, if I understand you...

I'm either a Christian or I've made myself my own god?

Aromimcha Elohai haMelech, vavarchah
shimcha l’olam vaed.
B’chol yom avarcheka, vaahal’lah
shimcha l’olam vaed.

Hmmmm

 

[Tariki]

So, if I understand you...

I'm either a Christian or I've made myself my own god?

Well, I never saw it that way, but DN will have to answer for himself.

For myself, rather than....

Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another? I doubt it.

......I would see it more as being lifted up, and being loved BY another.

That is the heart, at least for me. How it actually works in practice, in individual lives, is infinite in expression.

 

[b&wpac7]

Well, I never saw it that way, but DN will have to answer for himself.

Perhaps I'm projecting, but that is something typically said in Evangelical circles.

 

[Zoness]

A recurring theme here has been the injustice of a temporary offense receiving eternal punishment. Here's the summary of an exhaustive study of the Bible's original languages:

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

There's no way this flies in evangelical circles. Back when I was a Christian I was an annihilationist on the subject of hell ('the wages for sin is death' and all) but I knew that I was more or less rejected for that belief.

tl;dr: Noble thought but good luck convincing any evangelical Christians to accept it.

 

[razeontherock]

raze,

I remember from my own ancient fundamentalist days, asking one of the more elder of the brethren, "how can we be happy in heaven when we know that others we have loved are suffering in hell?". He said something like...."When I want any sort of answer I turn to the Bible. It says that He shall wipe every tear from the eye. I don't know how He's going to do it, but I believe it."

Yes, the really interesting question here is, why were there tears in heaven in the first place? And this speaks to a great evil within Christianity: so many focus on the heaven / hell distinction, and lose all focus of what matters. whatever is meant by this distinction, it is only the first step ...

 

[razeontherock]

For myself, rather than....

Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another? I doubt it.

......I would see it more as being lifted up, and being loved BY another.

That is the heart, at least for me. How it actually works in practice, in individual lives, is infinite in expression.

Speaking of "Evangelical circles," what you express here is in basically THE hokiest old-time Southern Gospel song:

"May the circle be unbroken"

It's still the Gospel, and it's still relevant. No matter what background

 

[razeontherock]

There's no way this flies in evangelical circles. Noble thought but good luck convincing any evangelical Christians to accept it.

Wait, are you trying to call me a reformer? As long as I don't go killing people like Calvin or Luther ...

Myself, I honestly don't know what to make of any of this stuff. I do think the info ought to be presented, and am amazed it took this long for it to surface. Especially the part about 4 out of 6 of the first Christian schools taught no eternal torment.

The best thing to do is to be sure we are headed AWAY from hell, with the exact opposite in view!

 

[Tariki]

Speaking of "Evangelical circles," what you express here is in basically THE hokiest old-time Southern Gospel song:

"May the circle be unbroken"

It's still the Gospel, and it's still relevant. No matter what background

Yes, I know that old song, and sometimes try to strum it on my guitar.........which at least gets rid of the cat.

One of the most relevant passages in a Pure Land book, at least for me, was a sentence that spoke of a "necessary" step on the path being to recognise that what we had experienced and understood as "self power", was in fact "Other Power". So, not so much "acceptance", which we can certainly experience it as, but recognition of that which has always been, that - in Pure Land terms -we are "grasped, never to be abandoned". I've found that it is this insistence on "acceptance" among evangelicals (perhaps a necessary thing to insist upon in some ways) that always divides people, and also leads to judgement of others by those who hold to their "work" of acceptance.

So Rennyo, a Pure Land guy from days gone by.....

Faith does not arise
Within oneself.
The Entrusting Heart
Is itself given by the Other Power.

I'd better not say anymore, the moderators may step in and say I am seeking to propagate another faith!

 

[Robban]

Yes, I know that old song, and sometimes try to strum it on my guitar.........which at least gets rid of the cat.

One of the most relevant passages in a Pure Land book, at least for me, was a sentence that spoke of a "necessary" step on the path being to recognise that what we had experienced and understood as "self power", was in fact "Other Power". So, not so much "acceptance", which we can certainly experience it as, but recognition of that which has always been, that - in Pure Land terms -we are "grasped, never to be abandoned". I've found that it is this insistence on "acceptance" among evangelicals (perhaps a necessary thing to insist upon in some ways) that always divides people, and also leads to judgement of others by those who hold to their "work" of acceptance.

So Rennyo, a Pure Land guy from days gone by.....

Faith does not arise
Within oneself.
The Entrusting Heart
Is itself given by the Other Power.

I'd better not say anymore, the moderators may step in and say I am seeking to propagate another faith!

Deep water fish have to have a certain amount of pressure,

 

[kivi]

GO STEELERS

I think that the New Testament is pretty clear on the matter of the punishment for sin. While I have no definitive idea where its description of Hell came from, it most definitely does not come from Judaism.

The Torah is very clear on the matter. All sins/averiahs are finite. Therefore, all punishments, either in this world or in the World to Come, are finite. All humans, Jew and righteous Gentile, have a portion in the World to Come. No one is exluded based on race, sex, aga, etc. Judaism has a form of re-incarnation, allowing a person several 'chances' on 'getting it right'. S'tan is not a fallen angel in revolt against G-d. S'tan is an angel, just like every other angel, who is perfect and, as such, as no free will, and only does what G-d directs it to do.

In the view of Torah, the Pharaoh of the Exodus is the most evil human in the history of mankind [and yes, that includes Hitler]. The Torah also recounts that the King of Niverah was the same person as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, either because he lived that long or his soul was re-incarnated in the King of Niverah. And the King of Niverah repented when called upon to do so by Job, becoming a holy enough vessal to do G-d's work when called upon with the destruction of the Southern Kingdom.

All of the popular depections of Hell, the Devil, demons, witches, etc etc etc withn the tradition of Chtristendom have no place in Judaism. However, it is my opinion that Jews have suffered for the last two thosands years as a direct result of them.

A recurring theme heve has been the injustice of a temporary offense receiving eternal punishment. Here's the summary of an exhaustive study of the Bible's original languages:

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

 

[GuardianShua]

GO STEELERS

I think that the New Testament is pretty clear on the matter of the punishment for sin. While I have no definitive idea where its description of Hell came from, it most definitely does not come from Judaism.

The Torah is very clear on the matter. All sins/averiahs are finite. Therefore, all punishments, either in this world or in the World to Come, are finite. All humans, Jew and righteous Gentile, have a portion in the World to Come. No one is exluded based on race, sex, aga, etc. Judaism has a form of re-incarnation, allowing a person several 'chances' on 'getting it right'. S'tan is not a fallen angel in revolt against G-d. S'tan is an angel, just like every other angel, who is perfect and, as such, as no free will, and only does what G-d directs it to do.

In the view of Torah, the Pharaoh of the Exodus is the most evil human in the history of mankind [and yes, that includes Hitler]. The Torah also recounts that the King of Niverah was the same person as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, either because he lived that long or his soul was re-incarnated in the King of Niverah. And the King of Niverah repented when called upon to do so by Job, becoming a holy enough vessal to do G-d's work when called upon with the destruction of the Southern Kingdom.

All of the popular depections of Hell, the Devil, demons, witches, etc etc etc withn the tradition of Chtristendom have no place in Judaism. However, it is my opinion that Jews have suffered for the last two thosands years as a direct result of them.

I agree that Hell is not a original teaching in Judaism. And neither do I believe in Angels. The word "messenger" should always be translated as such. There are many Satan's, so therefore the word is parabolic.

 

[razeontherock]

No one is exluded based on ... aga

Good to know! Does that include Lady Gaga?

The Torah also recounts that the King of Niverah

Is that the same as Nineveh, as in with Jonah?

All of the popular depections of witches, withn the tradition of Christendom

Actually that's not part of Christian tradition, just a left turn in the dark ages

 

[razeontherock]

There are many Satan's, so therefore the word is parabolic.

Is that like an equation you can factor?

 

[GuardianShua]

Is that like an equation you can factor?

Since the words Devil and Satan applies to different people and situations, then yes, it is an equation you can factor.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

The point is that the damned eternally testify to the "justice" of God, the "blessed" to His mercy and grace. At least, this is how I understand the teachings and beliefs of St Augustine, one of the great pillars of the Christian Church.

I believe your understanding to be corrects, and there have also been many posts made by Christians to justify hell for many reasons, but I feel such a place would be a logical fallacy. If god is truly just and merciful, he would not allow people to eternally testify, and not learn any lesson from their punishment. And, of course, he would not have allowed man to have free will unless he was not going to eternally punish those who do not choose him.

YHWH is, according to Judaeo-Christian theology, omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. It means he knew that man was going to fall before he had even started his acts of creation, and he would also have been able to stop it. It is illogical to hold such a being accountable for falling, when it is the creators fault for creating an imperfect specimin that he could have fixed easily. It seems petty and cruel (''a good work man never blames his tools (or creations''). If, however, you do not believe in an eternal hell and believe that hell is a lesson in goodness or eternal knowledge, then it deals with many problems in the YHWH story.

It does seem sad in many ways that Christ could speak of the one lost sheep in a 100, and thus imply the preciousness of each individual soul, yet finally the lost ones become a undifferentiated mass whose only purpose if to testify to Gods "justice"!

Agreed.

Again, the Saviour asks us to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect, by loving our enemies as much as our friends, as in fact He does, yet when such perfection is achieved - or granted by grace - those who are now "perfect" are able to enjoy the felicity of heaven undisturbed by the infinite and eternal suffering of millions, if not billions. The culmination of Christian "perfection"!

As I keep saying, so be it - there are ways of interpreting the Bible that exclude such things.

Yes, many Christians do not beleive in an eternal hell. There is a Universal Reconciliation group here; though sadly it is no longer very active.

For me, to actually accept that I now exist within a reality that will forever more contain suffering is not Good News.

Indeed, and as you know my stance on suffering is clearly Buddhist, so to know that suffering will continue forever is unpleasant to me too.

 

[Dharma Wheel]

In bold I have enumerated your false assumptions.

Actually you bolded my numbering...

1) Vilest tortures? Now you're assuming all receive the same punishment? Not what the Bible teaches. "True and righteous are your Judgments o Lord."

How did you deduce that from my post? The punishment might be different, but, if some interpretations of the Bible are to be believed, ''hell'', the lake of fire, whatever, will be a place of ''everlasting torment'', with ''great gnashing of teeth''.

It doesn't matter what differences in torture there is, torture is still torture.

2) Retributive = punishment, yes. G-d does not do this? You have never heard of karma? The law of sowing and reaping? Fate? You know very well this is part of our reality.

You are misunderstanding terminology. Utilitarian - punishment that serves to reform. Retributive - punishment without reform. Karma is quite clearly Utilitarian, so do not presume that I, a Buddhist, do not know something within MY own faith, please. Why do you Christians think you have a right to insult and denigrate non-Christians in such a way?

3) Hypothetical situation: 99% population in hell w/ no escape, 1% of population w/ eternal Life, having full knowledge of those in hell. Their punishment ha no affect on the attitude of the Living? You have not thought these things through!

Yes, I have thought them through, but I wonder if you truly have. Your post is a little fragmented, so I am not quite sure what it means (no offense, it happens to all of us when we are in debates).

Anyway, hell should serve as a utilitarian tool to reform the persons being punished. It is more logical than just torturing them for no real reason other than they do not live the way you want. Allow them to learn your faiths, not to experience torment for an insanely long amount of time.

You have actually gone outside in this great big world? There is nothing cruel or vicious?

And that justifies a supposedly compassionate deity from committed the vilests acts of torture, for eternity no? I don't think so.

Why should a god be cruel and viscious whilst expecting people to sing his praise and worship him? Why can he not be moral and kind, to counter the cruelty of the world of the living?

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:22

Spare me your quotes! I am not a Christian so they are as meaningless to me as a comic strip in the Beano.

 

[Tariki]

Agreed.

Thought I would just leave the "agreed" in, so I can chalk up another success!!

But we do seem to agree.

Another point is the verse in Ephesians, where it is declared that the elect are "chosen before the foundation of the world." I would just ask....can even an omnipotent God forsee the totally free choice of a being not yet created?

That sort of question does my head in, just not up to it! But over to the logicians......

 

[Dharma Wheel]

Is that so hard to believe? I don't even know why we call God cruel and viscious. God is supposed to be beyond such human terms. Maybe God's unique way of loving us is to send those who don't love him to Hell.

Because humans can only speak using human terminology. If a god is like that, he is cruel and viscious.