Hell?

[Eudaimonist]

Mark, I see your bias is a hindrance to your cause here too. You've actually got one crucial piece extremely wrong, it is your predisposition to believe that you are right.

Whether or not I have such a predisposition, that is irrelevant here. Let's focus on the issue at hand.

This particular statement is an incorrect interpretation:

"So make sure that you sing the right songs when you are flogged or worse."

Yes, I understand that it is said that God will provide the words. I didn't say that those words had to be preplanned by oneself. That doesn't change the fact that people are expected to suffer arrest, floggings, or worse in order to be in the right place at the right time to speak those words, whether they are planned, or spontaneous and attributed to God speaking through oneself.

It makes sense that the gospel writer would include something like that. He wouldn't want anyone worrying that they might not be eloquent enough to stay on God's good side. And people are perfectly capable of spontaneous speeches.

Do you really think that your objection affects the point I'm trying to make?

This world is so incredibly evil, so evil that anyone who speaks the truth effectively enough to convict someone of their sin, invokes the most intense hatred from those who don't want to hear it that the heart becomes murderous.

If you and I were to watch a movie where cops are playing the "good cop, bad cop" routine, it would quickly be apparent to me what those cops are doing. If I were to point this out to you, it would not be with hatred or murder in my heart. I would simply be telling you what was obvious to me. If you were to disagree, I would likely try to make it plain to you what was happening. My motivation is, as hikersong had mentioned, a desire "for truth and truthful explanations".

I find it amazing that you would so quickly resort to doubting my character, instead of facing up to the idea that perhaps someone could honestly read that passage differently than yourself.

What makes you think you have any right to say Jesus is an intimidator in the face of that kind of evidence?

I have the most basic right of all -- to speak my mind with honesty. If some people fail to be honest, and speak untruths out of hatred instead, that has no necessary relationship to me speaking on this issue.

Let me remind you that I'm not insisting that Jesus actually said those words. All I know is that a gospel writer wrote them down.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hikersong]

Well I guess 'truthful' explanation of Jesus' words is something that defines those who are with Him and those who are against Him.

Disagreeing, with very good justification, over one interpretation of one ancient text does not constitute being "against" anyone.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It was not my intent to make anyone feel bad, so if discussion of the Matthew passage is too much emotionally for anyone here at the present time, I'll just let the issue drop. I had only intended to be clear and honest about my reaction to the Bible quote.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[b&wpac7]

This world is so incredibly evil, so evil that anyone who speaks the truth effectively enough to convict someone of their sin, invokes the most intense hatred from those who don't want to hear it that the heart becomes murderous.

I have an honest question. My heart does not become "murderous" when you speak of Jesus, and if somebody points out my sin to me I may become defensive at first, but will admit my failing and repent. I am, obviously, not a follower of Jesus, yet my reaction to these things are there because I follow the God of Abraham. Does that mean, to you, that I have truth?

 

[Tariki]

Spellcheck doesn't catch it if it's a correctly spelled word LOL

Ode to the Spell Checker


Eye have a spelling checker
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

 

[JJWhite]

Ode to the Spell Checker


Eye have a spelling checker
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Jane, your bias is a hindrance to your cause. We all know Jesus does not instruct us to keep our mouth shut about Him, but to tell the truth to everyone.

It was a comparison, not a xerox copy.

The message of the passage you cited basically amounts to this:

"If you are persecuted for your faith, and face torture and death, do not rescind your faith, for while your enemies may kill you, GOD can do infinitely worse things to you if you do not remain in His good graces."

Let's hear the original once again: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

IOW: if the prospect of being executed frightens you, the prospect of courting God's displeasure ought to frighten you more - so you better stick to your position, and do not rescind anything!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

And do you remember what they did to brother Stephen when he complied? This world is so incredibly evil, so evil that anyone who speaks the truth effectively enough to convict someone of their sin, invokes the most intense hatred from those who don't want to hear it that the heart becomes murderous. What makes you think you have any right to say Jesus is an intimidator in the face of that kind of evidence?

"How DARE you?"

Waxing dramatic, are we?
There's no reason whatsoever to assume that Jesus MUST have spoken the words you cited. IMO, the likelihood would be somewhat greater if it was one of the passages that showed up in all three of the synoptic gospels, but as it is, I'd think it likely that some well-meaning author writing in a time of persecution wanted to attribute what he thought of as good advice to Jesus.

 

[razeontherock]

We are biological entities that have a psychology arising from that biology, and fully a part of that biology. Our psychology is not some separate entity that can float away after our bodies die.

Earlier you said you have never met a Christian who agrees with this premise. Merely to not confuse you about this, let me show you my logic for doing so:

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

READ: fully a part of that biology! As further evidenced by "without the spirit the body is dead." Inseparable. Non-dualism. This is further re-inforced by the Orthodox teaching that the concept of heaven as some 'state of separate entity that floated away' is heresy, and instead that is dependent upon bodily resurrection.

This all jibes with the whole of Scripture, Gen - Rev. So while I agree with your observation that the modern Church is all wrong about this, it's only because ... they're all wrong about this

 

[razeontherock]

"The Godfather is your friend as long as you keep your mouth shut and stay true to the Mafia, and great are the rewards of those who keep the faith. But nothing the Feds might do to you could ever measure up to what will happen to you if you should betray Him in a moment of weakness!

So, when it comes to blows, you'd better let them kill you than betray the Family."

I greatly appreciate a sincere desire for Truth, even when someone's findings differ wildly from my own perception. but to the above i must ask: how many mafiosos have you personally known? I also have to question if you have had significant contact with any church leaders you could call "great?"

It would appear that you are in no position to make this comparison, having had neither experience. Where I grew up, saying the word "mafia" in school was a sure way to get killed. My first job out of HS, (2 States away from where I grew up) I found myself working for the mafia w/o realizing it. I got promoted through literally every Dep't of a Co that was merely a front for laundering money, and when they had me keep their books I asked too many questions, totally oblivious to the fact that I was seeing through their facade.

They decided to off me, but I'm a tough SOB to kill. For entirely separate reasons, it was time for me to re-locate. That was when the attempts on my Brother's life began; he's still alive too.

As you might guess, I have had the fortunate experience of interacting with a few (minor) Church leaders that I would consider "great," as in, valid role models of Christ.

Based on this experience, there is NO such similarity as you try to draw here.

 

[Meepy]

"How DARE you?"

Waxing dramatic, are we?
There's no reason whatsoever to assume that Jesus MUST have spoken the words you cited. IMO, the likelihood would be somewhat greater if it was one of the passages that showed up in all three of the synoptic gospels, but as it is, I'd think it likely that some well-meaning author writing in a time of persecution wanted to attribute what he thought of as good advice to Jesus.

3 synoptic Gospels. nice. Most people make the mistake of saying 4.

 

[razeontherock]

"grace" is not so much that which comes in handy when we stumble, but more the reality in which we live and move and have our being. And, to be honest, more understood as simply "Reality-as-is" as totally non-judgemental

(Irrespective of any Biblical verse, fear has no place in creating a free mind. "Awe" perhaps.)

Any attempts that we make "not to stumble" are seen - at least in the Pure Land way - as "calculation", all relatively good in their own way, yet remaining "calculation", and in that sense the opposite of living in grace.

I see beauty in this. Thank you for sharing! Some time ago Mark and I had a conversation that concluded with Grace being either difficult or impossible to define. Little glimpses here and there help, but I think it is something that is lived out. And yes, that is to be our reality, rather than merely a crutch!

 

[oi_antz]

I see a tendency for some of the people here to suggest that the Bible is not an accurate record of Jesus' life. I've always seen the convenience of resorting to that argument, but I wonder how credible that belief really is. So, is there any evidence to suggest that the Bible is wrong about what Jesus said, or is this just a guess?

Jane: re #247 - Have you forgotten Peter's denial of Jesus three times? Of course it is natural to cave under the pressure of mafia, FBI, let's say anyone threatening. All I see is you are voicing the way you feel after reading this verse. That doesn't seem to prove any point against Jesus or Hell, but it does reveal that there's something really nasty hounding you when you read it.

I have an honest question. My heart does not become "murderous" when you speak of Jesus, and if somebody points out my sin to me I may become defensive at first, but will admit my failing and repent. I am, obviously, not a follower of Jesus, yet my reaction to these things are there because I follow the God of Abraham. Does that mean, to you, that I have truth?

I don't know why you look to me for confirmation of your faith. I think it's natural to feel defensive when told a truth that hurts. But what I'm specifically saying is when someone shoots an arrow of truth right into the heart of a sinner that the sinner becomes so afraid of anyone else knowing it, they naturally want to extinguish the source of the truth. I'd say that is quite different for you than it was for someone who might have felt responsibility for Jesus' crucifixion coupled with the feeling of a loss of control of socioreligious industry and facing those who seemed to know exactly what to say that would tell them they are wrong. I think this is the ultimate in pushing buttons, but it goes further than just saying "you killed the messiah", but that "you don't even want to listen to God, in fact you kill everyone He sends to speak to you" - and remember that is being said to people who are recognized as God's officiates.

 

[razeontherock]

Ok, here's some more interesting stuff about hell, from the early Church, as preached in 2002 in an Orthodox service in MN:

"The New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners ... many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people ... The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.

the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save"


Lots of ideas that the western Church has kept repressed! Full link to VERY long read:

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Christ the Conqueror of Hell » Theology and Spirituality » Articles in English » OrthodoxEurope.org

 

[Zoness]

Ok, here's some more interesting stuff about hell, from the early Church, as preached in 2002 in an Orthodox service in MN:

"The New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners ... many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people ... The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.

the Saviour also exerts His might because it is His work to save"


Lots of ideas that the western Church has kept repressed! Full link to VERY long read:

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Christ the Conqueror of Hell » Theology and Spirituality » Articles in English » OrthodoxEurope.org

What idea has the West repressed specifically? I don't think EO will ever catch on here it's too....good at what it does.

 

[b&wpac7]

I don't know why you look to me for confirmation of your faith. I think it's natural to feel defensive when told a truth that hurts.

Don't confuse a question regarding a point of view with a request to confirm my faith. I need nobody to confirm my faith. I do, however, need confirmation of the point of view of another person.

 

[razeontherock]

What idea has the West repressed specifically?

Well out of my post there, this part:

"the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons."

 

[Zoness]

Well out of my post there, this part:

"the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons."

Very interesting idea, I agree.

However, that will never catch on with Protestants.

 

[razeontherock]

Well then they renege on the name Pr. I mean, if ya can't protest hell, what can ya protest?

 

[b&wpac7]

Well then they renege on the name Pr. I mean, if ya can't protest hell, what can ya protest?

Sadly, I think a strange sort of revenge mentality exists among some circles. You'll see it here sometimes.

When confronted over beliefs, the response is not a discussion, but a clear "Yeah, well we'll see when YOU ARE IN HELL!!!!"