Hell?

[Tariki]

I must admit that the subject of a "soul" does not engage my attention much at all. I'm a simple soul (!!!), I'm just "me". Like the poet and mystic William Blake, I find we "murder to dissect." For me it seems more a case of seeing what is inauthentic from authentic, what is real from what is unreal, what is true from what is false. And to that, I need all the help I can get!!

One of my favorite Buddhist writers is Stephen Batchelor, who has taken much stick from the Buddhist fundamentalists by questioning such doctrines as "rebirth" (tut! tut!) Anyway, in his book "The Awakening of the West" (sub-titled "The Encounter of Buddhism and Western Culture") he writes....

The idea of a God who breaks into history to save human beings from their sins through the death of his only Son makes no sense. From a Buddhist standpoint, such a God is to the cosmos what an independantly existent self is to the mind-body complex: a consoling fiction. Just as the vision of the Buddha releases one from the need to believe in such a self, so does it free one from the need for such a God.

This is not quoted to encourage the Christian faithful amongst us to rush into print in defence of their God. From my own perspective and experience I would say that "consoling fictions" can be very demanding at times, and can in fact be transformed - sometimes in the twinkling of an eye - into the most profound of realities that seem - at least to me - true, authentic and real.

Yet there ARE different ways and means, even different starting points. As must be plain, I'm not much of one for "narrow ways". Maybe we each have our own narrow way, unique to ourselves.

So soul or not, whatever.

 

[oi_antz]

No problem. Thanks for your questions. I don't expect agreement, but I would like to be understood.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes, you have helped me with that, I think I understand you've forsaken any will to live beyond the flesh. You are correct, I do not agree with what you believe, it contradicts what Jesus says in Matthew 10:28. Cheers.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think I understand you've forsaken any will to live beyond the flesh.

More precisely, I don't believe that one can "live beyond the flesh", since it is precisely our "flesh" that is alive. We are biological entities that have a psychology arising from that biology, and fully a part of that biology. Our psychology is not some separate entity that can float away after our bodies die.

However, I regard myself as a spiritual person in that I am attentive to my "inner-life", meaning the very real needs of my psyche/mind/ego/personality. This might not be living beyond the flesh, but it certainly isn't treating myself as merely a lump of flesh, if you see what I mean.

it contradicts what Jesus says in Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Charming.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

The idea of a God who breaks into history to save human beings from their sins through the death of his only Son makes no sense. From a Buddhist standpoint, such a God is to the cosmos what an independantly existent self is to the mind-body complex: a consoling fiction. Just as the vision of the Buddha releases one from the need to believe in such a self, so does it free one from the need for such a God.

I tend to like Buddhism for its no-soul doctrine, although, like the author of the quote above, I tend to be skeptical about the doctrine of rebirth.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[oi_antz]

Charming.

Do you mean to say that you don't like what He said, or that He is wrong to say it? The reason I ask is that I suspect you probably feel both ways about this comment.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you mean to say that you don't like what He said, or that He is wrong to say it? The reason I ask is that I suspect you probably feel both ways about this comment.

I understand that you only posted that Bible reference because of its implied support for a strong distinction between soul and body.

I also realize that you are presenting the Bible quote as a mere statement of fact, and may even accept it without moral evaluation.

From my perspective, the quote itself (not by your intent) comes across as existing for the purpose of intimidation. And let's keep in mind that a human being wrote this down. I don't personally believe that "He" said anything.

This might be well-intentioned intimidation, at least from his perspective. My guess is that he feared that some Christians would be intimidated by other human beings for holding to Christian values, e.g., with torture or threat of torture, and he wanted to make certain that the greater fear belonged to God, so that martyrs instead of seeming deconverts would be the result.

It comes across as worse if one imagines that a deity exists that actually said such a thing. We're back to God as Cthulhu, or at least as a fearful tyrant who uses threats to get his way.

The effect is to present a worldview and a sense of life that comes across as nightmarish. This is what I find "charming", by which I mean the opposite of charming. It is one of the ugliest aspects of Christianity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[oi_antz]

I understand that you only posted that Bible reference because of its implied support for a strong distinction between soul and body.

I also realize that you are presenting the Bible quote as a mere statement of fact, and may even accept it without moral evaluation.

From my perspective, the quote itself (not by your intent) comes across as existing for the purpose of intimidation. And let's keep in mind that a human being wrote this down. I don't personally believe that "He" said anything.

This might be well-intentioned intimidation, at least from his perspective. My guess is that he feared that some Christians would be intimidated by other human beings for holding to Christian values, e.g., with torture or threat of torture, and he wanted to make certain that the greater fear belonged to God, so that martyrs instead of seeming deconverts would be the result.

It comes across as worse if one imagines that a deity exists that actually said such a thing. We're back to God as Cthulhu, or at least as a fearful tyrant who uses threats to get his way.

The effect is to present a worldview and a sense of life that comes across as nightmarish. This is what I find "charming", by which I mean the opposite of charming. It is one of the ugliest aspects of Christianity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Actually, the correct context of this verse begins here:

Matthew 10
16 “Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves. 17 But beware! For you will be handed over to the courts and will be flogged with whips in the synagogues. 18 You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell the rulers and other unbelievers about me.[e] 19 When you are arrested, don’t worry about how to respond or what to say. God will give you the right words at the right time. 20 For it is not you who will be speaking—it will be the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
...
28 “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[j] 29 What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin[k]? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. 30 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.

32 “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

You may see it as intimidation, and whatever motivates you to do so is a mystery to me because it is clear at this point Jesus knew His earthly life was to be robbed, and henceforth His life would be in heaven. However I don't see it as intimidation so much as honest truth. In my opinion, Jesus did not suffer a condemnation of justice, but rather He suffered very wrongly in the hands of sinners. Furthermore, even those who aren't directly responsible for having crucified Him seem to believe it is ok to accept it and carry on with life as though it didn't even happen. So, I do stand firm to differ with your apparent apathy on this matter, and I urge you to consider what you are saying when you declare that Jesus wishes to intimidate people. It could very well be someone you have spoken to that gave you that impression, or your own personal bias. Either way, it's not exactly fair to presume that Jesus has anything but good intentions when He speaks these words.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Actually, the correct context of this verse begins here:

Excuse me for saying so, but it seems as though you haven't understood a word of what Mark was trying to convey to you - and do not have the slightest intention or even desire to do so, either.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Either way, it's not exactly fair to presume that Jesus has anything but good intentions when He speaks these words.

I did say that the author of that passage may very well have had good intentions of a sort.

But don't you see the good cop, bad cop routine in the context that you provided? God can kick your butt mightily, but Jesus will stand up for you as long as you do what you are told. God places great value on your existence, as long as you follow instructions to the letter. So make sure that you sing the right songs when you are flogged or worse. If you fail, you will be shunned, and probably destroyed.

Stockholm syndrome anyone?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

"The Godfather is your friend as long as you keep your mouth shut and stay true to the Mafia, and great are the rewards of those who keep the faith. But nothing the Feds might do to you could ever measure up to what will happen to you if you should betray Him in a moment of weakness!

So, when it comes to blows, you'd better let them kill you than betray the Family."

 

[hikersong]

You may see it as intimidation, and whatever motivates you to do so is a mystery to me

Well to me, and I am sure any remotely neutral observer, what motivates him is a desire for truth and for truthful explanations. I'm honestly gobsmacked by this comment and the fact that you can try and make something honest seem twisted in some way.

 

[CatholicForSure]

duplicate

 

[SAMMISPARROW]

I understand that you only posted that Bible reference because of its implied support for a strong distinction between soul and body.

I also realize that you are presenting the Bible quote as a mere statement of fact, and may even accept it without moral evaluation.

From my perspective, the quote itself (not by your intent) comes across as existing for the purpose of intimidation. And let's keep in mind that a human being wrote this down. I don't personally believe that "He" said anything.

This might be well-intentioned intimidation, at least from his perspective. My guess is that he feared that some Christians would be intimidated by other human beings for holding to Christian values, e.g., with torture or threat of torture, and he wanted to make certain that the greater fear belonged to God, so that martyrs instead of seeming deconverts would be the result.

It comes across as worse if one imagines that a deity exists that actually said such a thing. We're back to God as Cthulhu, or at least as a fearful tyrant who uses threats to get his way.

The effect is to present a worldview and a sense of life that comes across as nightmarish. This is what I find "charming", by which I mean the opposite of charming. It is one of the ugliest aspects of Christianity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

The facts are that Jesus did live in this world and fulfilled wondrous miracles and raised the dead and arose from the dead and gave us the way to eternal life and only those who believe shall enter eternity and those who do not believe shall perish forever. We are given the truth and the choice. No one is forced and no one is denied, and all that is needed for this totake place is to accept Him.
For Jesus said that those who accepts Him will be received by Him. There is no price to pay for it in any way. It is freely given, ie. eternal life. Simple.

 

[SAMMISPARROW]

Excuse me for saying so, but it seems as though you haven't understood a word of what Mark was trying to convey to you - and do not have the slightest intention or even desire to do so, either.

Aaaaaaah....................never mind I feel numb.

 

[oi_antz]

Well to me, and I am sure any remotely neutral observer, what motivates him is a desire for truth and for truthful explanations. I'm honestly gobsmacked by this comment and the fact that you can try and make something honest seem twisted in some way.

Well I guess 'truthful' explanation of Jesus' words is something that defines those who are with Him and those who are against Him. Yep, gobsmack is a very relevant word. The motive to be against Jesus sure mystifies me, but then again it didn't take very long at all to forget how it felt to believe against Christ..

 

[oi_antz]

"The Godfather is your friend as long as you keep your mouth shut and stay true to the Mafia, and great are the rewards of those who keep the faith. But nothing the Feds might do to you could ever measure up to what will happen to you if you should betray Him in a moment of weakness!

So, when it comes to blows, you'd better let them kill you than betray the Family."

Jane, your bias is a hindrance to your cause. We all know Jesus does not instruct us to keep our mouth shut about Him, but to tell the truth to everyone.

 

[Tariki]

That's what makes language in this area difficult. Specific actions and even thoughts can be correctly discerned as un-Christian behavior, but it doesn't mean the individual isn't a Christian. It may just mean they stumbled.


Grace comes in handy in such situations!

raze,

I appreciate the light-heartedness, and not seeking to dispute, but more to explain my own experience and perspective. That "grace" is not so much that which comes in handy when we stumble, but more the reality in which we live and move and have our being. And, to be honest, more understood as simply "Reality-as-is" as totally non-judgemental, rather than as a "Person" who offers grace (that can be refused) and keeps "his" wrath in reserve for when your time is up! (Irrespective of any Biblical verse, fear has no place in creating a free mind. "Awe" perhaps.)

Any attempts that we make "not to stumble" are seen - at least in the Pure Land way - as "calculation", all relatively good in their own way, yet remaining "calculation", and in that sense the opposite of living in grace.

My eyes being hindered by blind passions,
I cannot perceive the light that grasps me;
Yet the great compassion, without tiring,
Illumines me always.

(Shinran, from "Hymns of the Pure Land Masters")

All the best

 

[oi_antz]

I did say that the author of that passage may very well have had good intentions of a sort.

But don't you see the good cop, bad cop routine in the context that you provided? God can kick your butt mightily, but Jesus will stand up for you as long as you do what you are told. God places great value on your existence, as long as you follow instructions to the letter. So make sure that you sing the right songs when you are flogged or worse. If you fail, you will be shunned, and probably destroyed.

Stockholm syndrome anyone?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Mark, I see your bias is a hindrance to your cause here too. You've actually got one crucial piece extremely wrong, it is your predisposition to believe that you are right. This particular statement is an incorrect interpretation:

"So make sure that you sing the right songs when you are flogged or worse."

Matthew 10
19 When you are arrested, don’t worry about how to respond or what to say. God will give you the right words at the right time. 20 For it is not you who will be speaking—it will be the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

And do you remember what they did to brother Stephen when he complied? This world is so incredibly evil, so evil that anyone who speaks the truth effectively enough to convict someone of their sin, invokes the most intense hatred from those who don't want to hear it that the heart becomes murderous. What makes you think you have any right to say Jesus is an intimidator in the face of that kind of evidence?

 

[Tariki]

Mark, I see your bias is a hindrance to your cause here too. You've actually got one crucial piece extremely wrong, it is your predisposition to believe that you are right. This particular statement is an incorrect interpretation:

"So make sure that you sing the right songs when you are flogged or worse."


And do you remember what they did to brother Stephen when he complied? This world is so incredibly evil, so evil that anyone who speaks the truth effectively enough to convict someone of their sin, invokes the most intense hatred from those who don't want to hear it that the heart becomes murderous. What makes you think you have any right to say Jesus is an intimidator in the face of that kind of evidence?

Oi antz,

I would say that often bias is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps beneficial to look for our own.

And I have to say that looking back through history, it has not been Christians only who have "suffered for the truth". In fact, many human beings have suffered at the hands of Christians when doing so.

But, of course, such who administered the suffering were not "true" Christians were they?

 

[CatholicForSure]

www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
​

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.620



610 1 ⇒ Jn 3:14-15.
611 Cf. ⇒ Mt 25:31-46.
612 Cf. ⇒ Mt 5:22, ⇒ 29; ⇒ 10:28; ⇒ 13:42, ⇒ 50; ⇒ Mk 9:43-48.
613 ⇒ Mt 13:41-42.
614 ⇒ Mt 25:41.
615 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12.
616 ⇒ Mt 7:13-14.
617 LG 48 # 3; ⇒ Mt 22:13; cf. ⇒ Heb 9:27; ⇒ Mt 25:13, ⇒ 26, ⇒ 30, ⇒ 31 ⇒ 46.
618 Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent
(1547):1567.
619 ⇒ 2 Pet 3:9.
620 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.

www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM