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SpiritualAntiseptic
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Care to summarize it and your position for those that read and analyze theological material all day?
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Hell
- Thread starter GreenMunchkin
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Care to summarize it and your position for those that read and analyze theological material all day?
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SpiritualAntiseptic
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Yes, precisely.
"will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection."
Does this make sense applied to the damned? Think about it real hard now.
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[1] A deserved punishment and a just punishment are the same thing.
[2] Gods punishment is consistent with our mistreatment of Him, His Son and our Neighbor.
- The greater our obligation to love, honor and obey another human being the greater our crime no to do so.
- To fail to love, honor and obey One to whom we have infinite obligation yields us infinitely guilty.
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Simon_Templar
Not all who wander are lost
First a note on the issue of resurrection...
It is difficult in scripture to pin down an exactly quote that states the unrighteous will be resurrected. However, there are a few verses that hint at this, such as
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here the "awakening" of those who sleep in the dust appears to conotate the awakening of a physical body, and obviously some of those who are then judged go to damnation.
Also Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
this strongly suggests that the unrighteous will indeed be "resurrected" in order to face judgement.
We know from many other scriptures that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected at his return and that is "the first resurrection". The second resurrection is that of the unrighteous.
If there is no second one, what is the point of differentiating "the first resurrection".
I recognize that the Catholics and many others are A-millenial thus they don't believe in the literal thousand years mentioned here, however, that doesn't invalidate the point that two resurrections, one of righteous, and one of unrighteous dead are clearly described.
It is difficult in scripture to pin down an exactly quote that states the unrighteous will be resurrected. However, there are a few verses that hint at this, such as
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here the "awakening" of those who sleep in the dust appears to conotate the awakening of a physical body, and obviously some of those who are then judged go to damnation.
Also Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
this strongly suggests that the unrighteous will indeed be "resurrected" in order to face judgement.
We know from many other scriptures that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected at his return and that is "the first resurrection". The second resurrection is that of the unrighteous.
If there is no second one, what is the point of differentiating "the first resurrection".
I recognize that the Catholics and many others are A-millenial thus they don't believe in the literal thousand years mentioned here, however, that doesn't invalidate the point that two resurrections, one of righteous, and one of unrighteous dead are clearly described.
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SpiritualAntiseptic
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I agree. Was your post in response to anyone in particular that might disagree?
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Nah, it is just a great article from one of America's great scholar-pastors.
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I'm not arguing against two resurrections.
I don't see why the dead will have bodily resurrection, since our's will be from Christ's.
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Time2BCounted
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I would ask God that one since He is the one giving it to us and since He doesnt seem to tell us why in the scriptures.
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MrJim
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Thread started out well, evolved into a debate.
It would be an interesting discussion, maybe a mod could split the debating and move it to another thread since it seems there are two discussions trying to work in here.
It would be an interesting discussion, maybe a mod could split the debating and move it to another thread since it seems there are two discussions trying to work in here.
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MrJim
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The notion of a soul "frying" is not one born of any sort of compassion or love. Justice is in the hands of God, not us, and that some of my deceased loved ones are "frying" is not a proper nor Godly way to look at it. I understand the nature of flippant humor (mea culpa), but this one wasn't too cool...
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A body is better suited to judgment is my point. Agreed made to flippantly.
But it is amazing how much the God of the Bible is woosified.
But it is amazing how much the God of the Bible is woosified.
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Simon_Templar
Not all who wander are lost
no more generally on hell.
The first misconception that comes to mind in this video (I also looked up a transcript of a talk given by this guy and am using what he said there in addition to the video) is, hell is not an eternal place. This is a common misconception because of the confusion of all the different things talked about in scripture into one generic "hell".
Another inconsistency between the hebrew hell and the common view held in this portrayal is that hell is full of noise and screaming.
In the hebrew view, based on the OT, there are a couple of different words used to describe "hell". The most common hebrew word involved is "sheol" which means the grave, or the place of the dead.
Other words used are abbadon, meaning "destruction", bor, meaning "pit", Shahat also meaning "pit", Tehom meaning "abyss", and Azazel which has disputed meanings.
The first point to make is that several (most if not all actually) of these are used in both the hebrew OT and their greek equivalents are used in the greek NT.
In two of the cases, the words used, both in hebrew and in greek are used as though they denote both a place, AND a person. These two are Death and Destruction. Sheol and Abbadon, in greek Hades and Apolyon.
Both are presented as places where the dead go, and both are also presented in personified form. This could mean that they are places which are governed by a ruling spirit that sort of is the place, personified.
Despite the fact that it is very tempting to think of these personified spirits ruling 'hell' it is clear in both old and new testament that God is the one who ultimately rules and controls sheol. Not the devil.
The terms "pit" and "abyss" are usually thought to be simply synonyms for Sheol and or Abbadon.
In the hebrew OT, sheol is presented as the abode of the dead. It is described as a shadowy, silent underworld. All of the dead went to Sheol and it seems to be suggested that in Sheol they continued somewhat after the manner of their life here on earth.
However, the dead in sheol are also referred to as "shades" or "shadows" they appear to not have physical form but to be basically shades of their former selves.
It appears in the OT that sheol is divided into compartments and that the righteous and unrighteous have different experiences there. However, it is also indicated by David (I think) that those in Sheol do not praise God, of course that might be taking David's comment too literally as well.
Sheol is basically presented like a prison in which the souls or 'shades' (hebrew rephaim) of the dead are locked. There they wait in silence and tedium. The unrighteous do appear to suffer torment and the righteous appear not to, but the over all image is one in which not much happens at all.
Sheol is generally presented in scripture as being inside the earth.
Now, we have to consider what happened when Jesus died on the cross. We are told that he went to sheol and did two things. First, he proclaimed his victory to the souls imprisoned there. Secondly he took the keys of death and hell (ie death and destruction). The keys represent the authority or rulership of them.
Now, I'm not really clear on this part myself, but it appears from extra biblical hebrew lore that 'hell' is actually a part of what is called "3rd heaven". The 3rd heaven is divided into two parts, one is paradise and the other is a place of torment and fire. Just as sheol is described by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (or very very close). This also relates to Paul who refers to the paradise part of 3rd heaven.
In addition to all of this, there are also the terms 'abyss' and 'pit' which are often seen as simply synonyms for 'sheol'. However, in the new testament Peter uses the greek term "tartarus" to refer to a place where fallen angels are bound in torment.
In greek mythology the underworld was divided into three parts.. Elysium (paradise for the good people) a middle place that was eternal tedium and boredom, for people who weren't really good or bad, and Tatarus which was the place of eternal torment for the bad people. Peter uses this greek reference to describe the place where SOME of the fallen angels are kept.
this is also seen in Revelation which makes several references to fallen angels and demonic spirits being locked in the abyss. Jude also briefly mentions this, the fallen angels bound with chains of imeasurable weight.
While its not overt, there does seem to be a seperation in the bible, between the place where the fallen angels are imprisoned, and the place where human souls go to wait.
Interestingly, when we look into hebrew lore, we find that this is reflected there as well. In the hebrew view of the multiple heavens, the souls of men went to 3rd heaven (torment or paradise both present there) while some of the fallen angels were imprisoned in 2nd heaven.
Now, I have to point out that while not directly stated, it is clear in the bible that not all the fallen angels are actually bound in the abyss. Only some are. Some are still active on earth.
The distinction here is presented most clearly by Jude. He says those angels who "abandoned their first estate". While there is disagreement on this issue, many see this as a reference to fallen angels who interfered directly in the development of mankind. This seems likely given the fact that it was the dominant, common belief among both Jews and Christians up until around the 3rd century, and it is directly stated in the book of Enoch, which Jude actually quotes in this passage.
Another interesting point is that in revelation we see Abbadon/Apolyon described as the king of those angels who are in the abyss. Thus it is likely that they abyss is 'abbadon' and abbadon/apolyon is also the chief angel imprisoned there.
At this point I would bring up Azazel. Azazel is another incident of a name that is thought to apply to both a place and a person. Azazel is listed in hebrew lore as one of the angels who took part in the corruption of mankind and is depicted, infact, as their leader and the one most responsible for teaching mankind wickedness. Supposedly he was responsible for teaching man how to make war, sorcery, divination, alchemy, and spreading lust through teaching women to adorn themselves deceptively and seductively etc.
This name is mentioned in the OT in the description of the ceremony of the day of attonement. Of the two sheep presented, one was given to God in sacrifice and the other, the "scapegoat" was given to Azazel. The term scape goat, literally in hebrew is actually "the goat for azazel".
Some people argue that Azazel also refered to a cliff that the scapegoat was thrown off of, but this is not clear.
Many Christian sources have argued that Azazel is another name for the devil, that may be correct, or he could be one of the other chief angels who fell.
Many people also believe that Abbadon/Apolyon is another name for the devil as well. This could be. I think it is likely that Abbadon/Apolyon will be the spirit who drives and probably posesses the "anti-christ" who is frequently known as "the son of perdition" (perdition is an old english word which means destruction) or "the son of apolyon".
The title, son of perdition was applied to Judas when satan posessed him.
So... from the bible, augmented by the context of hebrew culture and belief, it appears that sheol/hades is a place divided into two parts. One a place of torment, and one a place of paradise. Although there is some indication that the "paradise" may not have been fully open to the righteous, or fully available until Jesus died and proclaimed his victory and lead the captives out of sheol.
It seems likely that within the other part of sheol there was a place for the righteous that was not paradise, but was also not torment.
We know from the bible that Hades/Sheol is not a permanent place as we are told in revelation that hades/sheol and all those who are contained within them will be thrown into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is a different place.
Further, it seems likely that the fallen angels who are imprisoned are not imprisoned in the same place as the human souls. Rather, it appears that they are in a special place reserved for them.
The idea of the endless screams in hell probably comes from the statements in Jesus' parables about being cast into 'outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth'.
However, in the hebrew view, and in the OT, sheol appears to be a place of enduring overwhelming silence.
When examined, the references Jesus is making to wailing and gnashing of teeth appears not to be a reference to sheol/hades, but rather to the place where people go after final judgement, which is gehenna.
The greek word gehenna comes from the hebrew meaning "valley of hinnom". This was a valley just outside jerusalem. Many have picked up the idea that the valley of Hinnom was the 'incinerator' of jerusalem.. a garbage dump that was eternally on fire. That is possible, though there isn't much clear evidence. It isn't unlikely given that the valley was known to have been used as a garbage dump.
However, one of the more important aspects of the reference is often over looked. The valley of Hinnom was the place where the apostate Israelites went to sacrifice their children to baal/molech. They sacrificed their children by putting them in a fire which was kindled in the belly of an idol. Thus burning them to death.
This atrocity is used as a sort of image of why God's wrath is poured out and an image of justice in that those who do this kind of thing will get what they have coming. It is a reminder that apostasy, treason against God, ultimately leads all who choose it into terrible evil.
this place, the lake of fire, is eternal. It is the place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth etc. It is different from the place that is referred to as hell, which is sheol/hades. Most of the time the two get mixed up in the modern mind and kind of muddled together into one. It is Gehenna where the fallen angels and the lost souls are all thrown in together.
Looking at the description this guy offers from his experience, it has more in common with ghenna than with hell (hades/sheol).
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that his experience was false. It could be God showed him what Gehenna will be like, and the guy just called it hell because thats what he knows and how most people concieve of it.
his description of it using the bible verses and such appears to muddle to two together, but that is mostly based on his own efforts to find support for his experience after the fact.
The first misconception that comes to mind in this video (I also looked up a transcript of a talk given by this guy and am using what he said there in addition to the video) is, hell is not an eternal place. This is a common misconception because of the confusion of all the different things talked about in scripture into one generic "hell".
Another inconsistency between the hebrew hell and the common view held in this portrayal is that hell is full of noise and screaming.
In the hebrew view, based on the OT, there are a couple of different words used to describe "hell". The most common hebrew word involved is "sheol" which means the grave, or the place of the dead.
Other words used are abbadon, meaning "destruction", bor, meaning "pit", Shahat also meaning "pit", Tehom meaning "abyss", and Azazel which has disputed meanings.
The first point to make is that several (most if not all actually) of these are used in both the hebrew OT and their greek equivalents are used in the greek NT.
In two of the cases, the words used, both in hebrew and in greek are used as though they denote both a place, AND a person. These two are Death and Destruction. Sheol and Abbadon, in greek Hades and Apolyon.
Both are presented as places where the dead go, and both are also presented in personified form. This could mean that they are places which are governed by a ruling spirit that sort of is the place, personified.
Despite the fact that it is very tempting to think of these personified spirits ruling 'hell' it is clear in both old and new testament that God is the one who ultimately rules and controls sheol. Not the devil.
The terms "pit" and "abyss" are usually thought to be simply synonyms for Sheol and or Abbadon.
In the hebrew OT, sheol is presented as the abode of the dead. It is described as a shadowy, silent underworld. All of the dead went to Sheol and it seems to be suggested that in Sheol they continued somewhat after the manner of their life here on earth.
However, the dead in sheol are also referred to as "shades" or "shadows" they appear to not have physical form but to be basically shades of their former selves.
It appears in the OT that sheol is divided into compartments and that the righteous and unrighteous have different experiences there. However, it is also indicated by David (I think) that those in Sheol do not praise God, of course that might be taking David's comment too literally as well.
Sheol is basically presented like a prison in which the souls or 'shades' (hebrew rephaim) of the dead are locked. There they wait in silence and tedium. The unrighteous do appear to suffer torment and the righteous appear not to, but the over all image is one in which not much happens at all.
Sheol is generally presented in scripture as being inside the earth.
Now, we have to consider what happened when Jesus died on the cross. We are told that he went to sheol and did two things. First, he proclaimed his victory to the souls imprisoned there. Secondly he took the keys of death and hell (ie death and destruction). The keys represent the authority or rulership of them.
Now, I'm not really clear on this part myself, but it appears from extra biblical hebrew lore that 'hell' is actually a part of what is called "3rd heaven". The 3rd heaven is divided into two parts, one is paradise and the other is a place of torment and fire. Just as sheol is described by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (or very very close). This also relates to Paul who refers to the paradise part of 3rd heaven.
In addition to all of this, there are also the terms 'abyss' and 'pit' which are often seen as simply synonyms for 'sheol'. However, in the new testament Peter uses the greek term "tartarus" to refer to a place where fallen angels are bound in torment.
In greek mythology the underworld was divided into three parts.. Elysium (paradise for the good people) a middle place that was eternal tedium and boredom, for people who weren't really good or bad, and Tatarus which was the place of eternal torment for the bad people. Peter uses this greek reference to describe the place where SOME of the fallen angels are kept.
this is also seen in Revelation which makes several references to fallen angels and demonic spirits being locked in the abyss. Jude also briefly mentions this, the fallen angels bound with chains of imeasurable weight.
While its not overt, there does seem to be a seperation in the bible, between the place where the fallen angels are imprisoned, and the place where human souls go to wait.
Interestingly, when we look into hebrew lore, we find that this is reflected there as well. In the hebrew view of the multiple heavens, the souls of men went to 3rd heaven (torment or paradise both present there) while some of the fallen angels were imprisoned in 2nd heaven.
Now, I have to point out that while not directly stated, it is clear in the bible that not all the fallen angels are actually bound in the abyss. Only some are. Some are still active on earth.
The distinction here is presented most clearly by Jude. He says those angels who "abandoned their first estate". While there is disagreement on this issue, many see this as a reference to fallen angels who interfered directly in the development of mankind. This seems likely given the fact that it was the dominant, common belief among both Jews and Christians up until around the 3rd century, and it is directly stated in the book of Enoch, which Jude actually quotes in this passage.
Another interesting point is that in revelation we see Abbadon/Apolyon described as the king of those angels who are in the abyss. Thus it is likely that they abyss is 'abbadon' and abbadon/apolyon is also the chief angel imprisoned there.
At this point I would bring up Azazel. Azazel is another incident of a name that is thought to apply to both a place and a person. Azazel is listed in hebrew lore as one of the angels who took part in the corruption of mankind and is depicted, infact, as their leader and the one most responsible for teaching mankind wickedness. Supposedly he was responsible for teaching man how to make war, sorcery, divination, alchemy, and spreading lust through teaching women to adorn themselves deceptively and seductively etc.
This name is mentioned in the OT in the description of the ceremony of the day of attonement. Of the two sheep presented, one was given to God in sacrifice and the other, the "scapegoat" was given to Azazel. The term scape goat, literally in hebrew is actually "the goat for azazel".
Some people argue that Azazel also refered to a cliff that the scapegoat was thrown off of, but this is not clear.
Many Christian sources have argued that Azazel is another name for the devil, that may be correct, or he could be one of the other chief angels who fell.
Many people also believe that Abbadon/Apolyon is another name for the devil as well. This could be. I think it is likely that Abbadon/Apolyon will be the spirit who drives and probably posesses the "anti-christ" who is frequently known as "the son of perdition" (perdition is an old english word which means destruction) or "the son of apolyon".
The title, son of perdition was applied to Judas when satan posessed him.
So... from the bible, augmented by the context of hebrew culture and belief, it appears that sheol/hades is a place divided into two parts. One a place of torment, and one a place of paradise. Although there is some indication that the "paradise" may not have been fully open to the righteous, or fully available until Jesus died and proclaimed his victory and lead the captives out of sheol.
It seems likely that within the other part of sheol there was a place for the righteous that was not paradise, but was also not torment.
We know from the bible that Hades/Sheol is not a permanent place as we are told in revelation that hades/sheol and all those who are contained within them will be thrown into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is a different place.
Further, it seems likely that the fallen angels who are imprisoned are not imprisoned in the same place as the human souls. Rather, it appears that they are in a special place reserved for them.
The idea of the endless screams in hell probably comes from the statements in Jesus' parables about being cast into 'outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth'.
However, in the hebrew view, and in the OT, sheol appears to be a place of enduring overwhelming silence.
When examined, the references Jesus is making to wailing and gnashing of teeth appears not to be a reference to sheol/hades, but rather to the place where people go after final judgement, which is gehenna.
The greek word gehenna comes from the hebrew meaning "valley of hinnom". This was a valley just outside jerusalem. Many have picked up the idea that the valley of Hinnom was the 'incinerator' of jerusalem.. a garbage dump that was eternally on fire. That is possible, though there isn't much clear evidence. It isn't unlikely given that the valley was known to have been used as a garbage dump.
However, one of the more important aspects of the reference is often over looked. The valley of Hinnom was the place where the apostate Israelites went to sacrifice their children to baal/molech. They sacrificed their children by putting them in a fire which was kindled in the belly of an idol. Thus burning them to death.
This atrocity is used as a sort of image of why God's wrath is poured out and an image of justice in that those who do this kind of thing will get what they have coming. It is a reminder that apostasy, treason against God, ultimately leads all who choose it into terrible evil.
this place, the lake of fire, is eternal. It is the place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth etc. It is different from the place that is referred to as hell, which is sheol/hades. Most of the time the two get mixed up in the modern mind and kind of muddled together into one. It is Gehenna where the fallen angels and the lost souls are all thrown in together.
Looking at the description this guy offers from his experience, it has more in common with ghenna than with hell (hades/sheol).
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that his experience was false. It could be God showed him what Gehenna will be like, and the guy just called it hell because thats what he knows and how most people concieve of it.
his description of it using the bible verses and such appears to muddle to two together, but that is mostly based on his own efforts to find support for his experience after the fact.
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staveoffzombies
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The funny thing about all this is that the guy mentioned Mary k Baxter. This guys account of hell, and her account of hell...are WILDLY different.
I wonder how they explain that little detail away?
I wonder how they explain that little detail away?
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