Hell

[ScottHere]

How is it possible to justify the existence of an eternal place of torment?

 

[willard3]

While God loves us, He is also a just judge. Rejecting Him merits eternal torment in Hell. While no one really knows what is in hell, one of the main torments is total separation from God.

What if your spouse was a judge and you were convicted of murder? She would need to follow the law and sentence you fairly, even though she loves you.

 

[ScottHere]

I understand justice, but eternal punishment just doesn't seem fair. Why can't He just destroy them? God knows they will go to Hell before they are even born. The Bible speaks of predestination. Romans 9 speaks about God making some "vessels" for wrath. How can eternal torcher by justified, especially if God knows they will go there?

 

[MikeMcK]

How is it possible to justify the existence of an eternal place of torment?

Because Jesus said so.

As Baretta used to say, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time".

 

[ScottHere]

What crime is worthy of eternal torcher?

 

[uberd00b]

What crime is worthy of eternal torcher?

I can think of no crime that can be commited within time that warrants an eternal punishment, and eternal torture is doubly wrong. Any human judge would not hand out such a punishment, so to attribute god with such amoral thinking would make such a god less than human.

 

[MikeMcK]

I can think of no crime that can be commited within time that warrants an eternal punishment, and eternal torture is doubly wrong. Any human judge would not hand out such a punishment, so to attribute god with such amoral thinking would make such a god less than human.

OK.

Let's say that I tell a lie to my child. Then, I tell a lie to my wife. Then, I tell a lie to the government.

My child: I recieve no punishment.

My wife: I have to sleep on the couch.

The government: I'm found guilty of perjury and sent to jail.

What's the difference? The authority of the person I've lied to in each particular case determines the severity of the punishment.

If God is infinitely righteous and just, then a violation of His law is an infinite violation and His infinite justice demands an infinite punishment.

 

[uberd00b]

OK.

Let's say that I tell a lie to my child. Then, I tell a lie to my wife. Then, I tell a lie to the government.

My child: I recieve no punishment.

My wife: I have to sleep on the couch.

The government: I'm found guilty of perjury and sent to jail.

What's the difference? The authority of the person I've lied to in each particular case determines the severity of the punishment.

If God is infinitely righteous and just, then a violation of His law is an infinite violation and His infinite justice demands an infinite punishment.

I disagree, the punishment is based on the severity of the crime, not the power of the authority. Might does not make right.

 

[MikeMcK]

I disagree, the punishment is based on the severity of the crime, not the power of the authority.

It's the same crime in all three cases.

Might does not make right.

No it doesn't. But sovereignty does give the Sovereign the right to punish to the degree to which His standard has been violated.

 

[uberd00b]

It's the same crime in all three cases.

But nevertheless, in sentencing, the judge would have taken into account the severity of the crime, it is the severity of the crime that determines the punishment, not the relative power of the prosecuting authority.

No it doesn't. But sovereignty does give the Sovereign the right to punish to the degree to which His standard has been violated.

No, that's still might makes right. Should the sovereign execute his power unfairly his people would be justified in resisting and rebelling against his authority.

 

[MikeMcK]

But nevertheless, in sentencing, the judge would have taken into account the severity of the crime, it is the severity of the crime that determines the punishment, not the relative power of the prosecuting authority.

But that's just the point. You can't seperate the two in this case.

No, that's still might makes right. Should the sovereign execute his power unfairly his people would be justified in resisting and rebelling against his authority.

"Unfairly"? No.

But God's judgement is just.

 

[uberd00b]

But that's just the point. You can't seperate the two in this case.

I believe you can, for instance, based on the severity of your crime your wife may make you sleep on the sofa, or divorce you entirely and disappear on some thelma and louise-esque road trip.

The government has set punishments based, again, on the severity of the crime. Perjury is one of them, and you'd be punished for that, on top of the actual crime itself. The judge would not punish you to the maximum of his power by default. And many sentences are reduced on appeal.

I guess i don't think this analogy is particularily apt.

"Unfairly"? No.

But God's judgement is just.

I believe it is also.

But i do not believe an eternal punishment is just, and this is the point under discussion.

 

[MikeMcK]

I believe you can, for instance, based on the severity of your crime your wife may make you sleep on the sofa, or divorce you entirely and disappear on some thelma and louise-esque road trip.

The government has set punishments based, again, on the severity of the crime. Perjury is one of them, and you'd be punished for that, on top of the actual crime itself. The judge would not punish you to the maximum of his power by default. And many sentences are reduced on appeal.

I guess i don't think this analogy is particularily apt.

You completely missed the point.

I believe it is also.

But i do not believe an eternal punishment is just, and this is the point under discussion.

So then, you do believe His judgements are just, but you don't believe His judgements are just.

Interesting. How is it that an atheist can make the judgement that God's judgements are just, anyway?

 

[PaulAckermann]

How is it possible to justify the existence of an eternal place of torment?

My view of Hell has been greatly influenced by CS Lewis.

God is the source of all love and all joy. Through His mercy God has temporarily given men who do not even seek God the ability to experience and give love on this earth. Theologian call this common grace. Love and joy is only possible from God. People who do not even seek God still receive gifts of love and joy from Him.

A person who goes through his life saying "I do not need God. I do not want God" does not realize how much he is dependant on God. Without the gift of God, he would not be able to give or receive love. The Bible says that God is love, not just that God is loving, but that God IS love. This man who rejects God is still experiencing love as a gift from God. As a result, he is able to experience loving relationships with his wife, kids, friends, etc. Love is not possible without God. And because he experiences loving relationships, he experiences joy.

But this is only a temporary situation. There will come a time, on Judgement Day, that God will give this man exactly what he wanted in this earth. As CS Lewis has written, God is the great Gentleman. He does not force Himself on anyone. If man wants to live without God, God gives him exactly what he wants - for eternity. God will give the man eternity without God. That is, after all, what the man wanted. However, because he will spend eternity without God, this means he will spend eternity without love, since God is love. That means an eternity without any loving relationships - without love with your wife, kids, or friends. God withdraws His gift of love to those in hell. Hell would be filled with selfish, with egotism, with hatred. But hell will not have love. This is why the Bible pictures it as outer darkness - it is eternal loneliness. And since Hell would be devoid of any love, there would be an eternal lack of joy, which would make this a place of torment. This the Bible also pictures it as a lake of fire - this symbolizes the torment and hatred in Hell.

So Hell is basically God giving man who rejects God exactly what he wanted - eternity without God. Man in Hell is in a dilemma. He wants the benefits of being with God but he does not want to be with God. CS Lewis once wrote a book called The Great Divorce. This book is about Hell. One day an angel goes down with a bus to Hell and tells them that God is going to give everybody a second chance. They can get on the bus and go to heaven. Everybody thought that was fantastic! But when they entered heaven, they could not stand to be there. They especially could not stand being in God's presence. They decided to go back to Hell. Although they hated Hell, they hated Heaven worse.

Those in Hell would not be happy in Heaven if they were given chance to go to Heaven. As even Jean Paul Sartre once said, Hell is locked from the inside.

So this is my picture of Hell. Hell is a place where God gives man who rejects God exactly what he wanted - eternity without God. But man must live for eternity with the implications of being without God.

 

[uberd00b]

You completely missed the point.

Perhaps i did, i thought your point was that a sentence was based on the prosecuting authoritys power. My point was that it isn't in any situation that i am aware of. If i have misunderstood you, please explain.

So then, you do believe His judgements are just, but you don't believe His judgements are just.

Sorry i wasn't clear, i do not think eternal punishment is meted out by god, as this would make god less than human.

Interesting. How is it that an atheist can make the judgement that God's judgements are just, anyway?

The same way a theist can, we all ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, did we not?

 

[MikeMcK]

Sorry i wasn't clear, i do not think eternal punishment is meted out by god, as this would make god less than human.

And the Bible says that it is.

The same way a theist can, we all ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, did we not?

First of all, no, we didn't.

Second, this is not what is meant by the "tree of knowledge of good and evil".

 

[uberd00b]

And the Bible says that it is.

Indeed it does, this is however irrelevant to whether or not such a punishment is just.

First of all, no, we didn't.

I rather thought we were held accountable for Adam and Eves actions.

Second, this is not what is meant by the "tree of knowledge of good and evil".

But that is what the bible says "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

We now can recognise good and evil as the Gods can, so we are certanly in a position to judge the merits of eternal punishment.

It seems you think God is just because he is God (might makes right), where i believe God is just because he is just.

 

[uberd00b]

Ah, ok, apparently (i just read the forum rules) this isn't the place for debate, so excuse me, i'm new.

So, to summarise, the question was;

How is it possible to justify the existence of an eternal place of torment?

Two answer have been recieved so far,

either A) Gods judgement is just by default, as he is God (correct me if i'm wrong MikeMcK).

and B) The people in hell are happier/would rather be there than in heaven, which i think is a fantastic answer (very smart cookie CS Lewis).

Are there any other takes on this?

 

[MikeMcK]

I rather thought we were held accountable for Adam and Eves actions.

No. Adam and Eve are accountable for Adam and Eve's actions. You're accountable for your actions.

But that is what the bible says "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

We now can recognise good and evil as the Gods can, so we are certanly in a position to judge the merits of eternal punishment.

Actually, this isn't what is meant by "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

It seems you think God is just because he is God (might makes right), where i believe God is just because he is just.

No, I believe that God is just because God is just.

 

[none the wiser]

My view of Hell has been greatly influenced by CS Lewis.

God is the source of all love and all joy. Through His mercy God has temporarily given men who do not even seek God the ability to experience and give love on this earth. Theologian call this common grace. Love and joy is only possible from God. People who do not even seek God still receive gifts of love and joy from Him.

A person who goes through his life saying "I do not need God. I do not want God" does not realize how much he is dependant on God. Without the gift of God, he would not be able to give or receive love. The Bible says that God is love, not just that God is loving, but that God IS love. This man who rejects God is still experiencing love as a gift from God. As a result, he is able to experience loving relationships with his wife, kids, friends, etc. Love is not possible without God. And because he experiences loving relationships, he experiences joy.

But this is only a temporary situation. There will come a time, on Judgement Day, that God will give this man exactly what he wanted in this earth. As CS Lewis has written, God is the great Gentleman. He does not force Himself on anyone. If man wants to live without God, God gives him exactly what he wants - for eternity. God will give the man eternity without God. That is, after all, what the man wanted. However, because he will spend eternity without God, this means he will spend eternity without love, since God is love. That means an eternity without any loving relationships - without love with your wife, kids, or friends. God withdraws His gift of love to those in hell. Hell would be filled with selfish, with egotism, with hatred. But hell will not have love. This is why the Bible pictures it as outer darkness - it is eternal loneliness. And since Hell would be devoid of any love, there would be an eternal lack of joy, which would make this a place of torment. This the Bible also pictures it as a lake of fire - this symbolizes the torment and hatred in Hell.

So Hell is basically God giving man who rejects God exactly what he wanted - eternity without God. Man in Hell is in a dilemma. He wants the benefits of being with God but he does not want to be with God. CS Lewis once wrote a book called The Great Divorce. This book is about Hell. One day an angel goes down with a bus to Hell and tells them that God is going to give everybody a second chance. They can get on the bus and go to heaven. Everybody thought that was fantastic! But when they entered heaven, they could not stand to be there. They especially could not stand being in God's presence. They decided to go back to Hell. Although they hated Hell, they hated Heaven worse.

Those in Hell would not be happy in Heaven if they were given chance to go to Heaven. As even Jean Paul Sartre once said, Hell is locked from the inside.

So this is my picture of Hell. Hell is a place where God gives man who rejects God exactly what he wanted - eternity without God. But man must live for eternity with the implications of being without God.

That seems so illogical to me. I mean it makes sense until the part where sinners would be happier in hell. Surely they would realize that it WAS eternal torment, and want to get out.

This is overlooking the fact, also, that some people have a lot more trouble believing, based on circumstances in their lives and the way they're "wired." It seems unfair to group all unbelievers into one category: wanting the benefits of being with God, but not wanting to be with Him. I've found that people have different reasons for unbelief, and it's not always just wanting to sin.