Hell

[Edial]

I've been reading through here and see all these references to eternal torment, everlasting punishment, everlasting destruction and so on. The problem is the bible only says that the devil, false prophet and the beast will be tormented night and day for ever and ever.

The Burning Lake was prepared for the evil and his "angels". However, the company also expanded when he developed more followers in people.

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Did you ever think that everlasting punishment could mean a punishment that is permanent as in destruction, everlasting destruction is permenant, once destroyed there is no coming back therefore it is everlasting but actually may only last 1 second.

Yes. I thought about it for years. And I cannot come to this conclusion for the following reasons.

1. Since all will receive the "indestructable" bodies - all will last as long as the Devil will last.

2. The text says - MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So, if the lefe is eternal (continual), so is the punishment.

3. The environment in there will be bad, However, please note the language in all the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" instances.
If one would study the "weeping" part it would be mostly from bitterness and not the "numbing" pain.

4. Only the worst of the worst will wind up in there. The "life" in the Hades/Sheol needs also be understood. What is going on in there? Can one be saved from there? If yes, how? If not, why not? And how can my grand-mother be the worst of the worst? Is she? These wuestions must be asked and reasonable answers received.

And an answer that one gets an eternity of mind-numbing pain for a "parking ticket" is NOT the answer.

Oh, I know the theoretical answer how one deserves hell. And we do. But unless our answers make sense to others - we do not know what we are talking about.

Without understanding the life in the Hades/Sheol and what is going on in that world of the departed dead one cannot even address the Burning Lake.

For example. Most of the people that I encounter will tell others that people that died today without Jesus Christ currently burn in the Hades. And they refer to the Luke 16 text. Luke 16 text is indeed a text that states so. And it is a correct statement.

However, not everyone burns in the Hades. Just check the Sheol. Hades is the same as Sheol of the OT.

Currently, the underworld is very much mis-represented by us (the Christians) to an outside world.

The problem with all these interputations about people being tormented or punished in some on going fashion for all eternity is that in order to do so they would have to have eternal life which the bible clearly says they do not.

Death is not a cessation from an existance. The text presents that dogmatically.
The answer to this "ethical" conflict however, must lie in a different area. We must understand the life in Hades/Sheol.

So far, someone presented that there is no "consciousness" in there.
If we start off like this and overlook the Bible which plainly states that there are plenty of activities in the underworld - we will continue give an impression to others that we know very little, yet claim a lot.

Please forgive my forceful answer. I believe it is very important to address this properly.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Soul Searcher]

So far, someone presented that there is no "consciousness" in there.
If we start off like this and overlook the Bible which plainly states that there are plenty of activities in the underworld - we will continue give an impression to others that we know very little, yet claim a lot.

Could you give me a reference where I can find these activities you speak of, All I have found is that there is no work nor device, nor wisdom nor knowledge. That and the verse that states the body returns to the dust from where it came but the spirit returns to God who gave it. These do indicate to me that there truly is no consciousness in sheol. If you know of scripture which states otherwise please post a reference so i can read it in context for myself.

Please forgive my forceful answer. I believe it is very important to address this properly.

Thanks,
Ed

No worries, you are simply doing what you feel is right.

 

[Edial]

Hey Ed

you probably picked my worst post to answer there are many others earlier

I had bad days too.

ok sheol i'll just c&p this from Rays site

• In Hebrew "Hell" is translated from the word sheol
• This same word sheol is translated into the English word "grave" thirty times in the Authorized Version

Sheol means the world of the departed dead. It cannot mean grave. Grave is "kevar" in Hebrew.

The fact that it is so translated in some of the translations means nothing.

The Hebrew and the Greek Bibles have a distinct description of these words.

You say

Back up a bit.
There is enough Scripture to sink a ship to show that people in the Sheol talk, argue, sleep, wake up, complain, some burn, some do not.

so put a couple up please

ISA 14:9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;

It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;

It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 "They will all respond and say to you,

`Even you have been made weak as we,

You have become like us. 11 `Your pomp and the music of your harps

Have been brought down to Sheol;

you said these are good verses

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

so why isn't hades translated hell here

because then it would read hell where is your victory !!

hades is translated hell elsewhere why not here

It does not matter why not.
Just go into Greek this time. Hades is Sheol of the OT. Sheol is the world of the departed dead. It is not grave. That's not what the word means in Hebrew. For every translation grave I can find you translation Sheol. Forget translations. One cannot go by the translations - they will be misdirected.

One cannot build theology on someone else's words, translations.

Here is the Greek text (transliteration) -
1CO 15:55 pou sou, thanate, to nikos? pou sou, thanate, to kentron?

Thanate is a Strong's number 2288.
2288 means -

qa>natov,​

​

​

— than’-at-os; from (2348) (qnh>skw); (properly an

adjective used as a noun) death (literal or figurative): — x

deadly, (be...) death.
​

Why King James Version has it translated "grave" - I do not know. And it does not matter why. It is a different discussion.
What matters is what it means in Greek.

Also, not every instance whenever you see grave it means hell.

There are excelent software that will translate all the Greek and Hebrew words into English.

OF COURSE we should avoid going to gehenna at all costs but we should also avoid telling people lies about God like

he's going to torture non christians forever

it's a LIE!

so who do you want to torture Edial

probably no-one but you say God does? !!

ertsky, don't twist.
Much study must be done in order to understand Sheol and Hades.

Flat statements that you are making are not productive but destructive.

Ed

 

[Edial]

Could you give me a reference where I can find these activities you speak of, All I have found is that there is no work nor device, nor wisdom nor knowledge. That and the verse that states the body returns to the dust from where it came but the spirit returns to God who gave it. These do indicate to me that there truly is no consciousness in sheol. If you know of scripture which states otherwise please post a reference so i can read it in context for myself.

The word "grave" is Sheol - the world of the departed dead. It is not grave. Other translations have as Sheol.


EZE 32:17 In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and consign to the earth below both her and the daughters of mighty nations, with those who go down to the pit. 19 Say to them, `Are you more favored than others? Go down and be laid among the uncircumcised.' 20 They will fall among those killed by the sword. The sword is drawn; let her be dragged off with all her hordes. 21 From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, `They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.'

ISA 14:9 The grave below is all astir

to meet you at your coming;

it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--

all those who were leaders in the world;

it makes them rise from their thrones--

all those who were kings over the nations.

ISA 14:10 They will all respond,

they will say to you,

"You also have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us."

ISA 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,

along with the noise of your harps;

maggots are spread out beneath you

and worms cover you.

No worries, you are simply doing what you feel is right.

I am glad you see through it.
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Ginny, what am I doing wrong?
You are the 3rd person that misunderstands what I am saying.

Where did I say that hell is not eternal?

Ed

 

[Lpe04]

The Burning Lake was prepared for the evil and his "angels". However, the company also expanded when he developed more followers in people.

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.



Yes. I thought about it for years. And I cannot come to this conclusion for the following reasons.

1. Since all will receive the "indestructable" bodies - all will last as long as the Devil will last.

No, not all receive indestructible bodies, only believers will.

2. The text says - MT 25:46 "Then they will go away toeternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
So, if the lefe is eternal (continual), so is the punishment.

An eternal punishment would be the second death, it's a punishment and it's eternal. The fact that this is contrasted with life eternal is futher proof that unbelievers will not live for ever.

3. The environment in there will be bad, However, please note the language in all the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" instances.
If one would study the "weeping" part it would be mostly from bitterness and not the "numbing" pain.

I have received revelation from God on the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". I believe it is representative of the judgement day the unbelivers are revealed the truth and will see that they wasted their whole lives and all they had to do was accept Christ, and they will see or know the eternal happiness they will be missing out on. They will be literaly "kicking themselves/beating themselves up" or gnashing their teeth and weeping at what they could have had.

Death is not a cessation from an existance. The text presents that dogmatically.
The answer to this "ethical" conflict however, must lie in a different area. We must understand the life in Hades/Sheol.

So far, someone presented that there is no "consciousness" in there.
If we start off like this and overlook the Bible which plainly states that there are plenty of activities in the underworld - we will continue give an impression to others that we know very little, yet claim a lot.

Quite the opposite, death is described as a state of "sleep" all throughout the Bible. In sleep there is no conscienceness.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Psalm 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence"

You are believing one of satan's lies, those who sin "shall surely not die". I choose to believe what God says that the wages of sin is death.

I used to believe the whole torment for ever thing because that is what most churches teach until I actually read and studying the Bible and realized that God's Word teaches quite the oppoisite, and overwhelmingly. There is beyond a doubt from God's Word that there is no place where people will be tormented for ever.

God Bless

 

[Lpe04]

I think there isn't a whole lot of point arguing about what sheol is (yes King James Version was wrong about this, it is not "hell"), I think it's better to point out to people that the unbelievers will be cast into the Lake of Fire to perish, this is the Second Death and matches with about 500 other verses throughout the entire Bible that say the unbelievers and wicked will perish, become twice dead, be reduced to ashes, burned up, face the second death, face destruction. This is what God's Word says and this is God's nature, infinite love, mercy, and compassion, even for His enemies.

Another great article on "hell" being a man made concept, it's origin, and difficult verses explained. http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html

God Bless

 

[Edial]

No, not all receive indestructible bodies, only believers will.

And how do you know that?
1Cor.15 presents that if there is a natural body there will also be a spiritual body. And that includes even animanls.

An eternal punishment would be the second death, it's a punishment and it's eternal. The fact that this is contrasted with life eternal is futher proof that unbelievers will not live for ever.

Not at all.
If the punishment is eternal and there is no one to punish it makes no sense.
You want to ignore the text - go ahead, but the text is there and you need to address it.

I have received revelation from God on the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". I believe it is representative of the judgement day the unbelivers are revealed the truth and will see that they wasted their whole lives and all they had to do was accept Christ, and they will see or know the eternal happiness they will be missing out on. They will be literaly "kicking themselves/beating themselves up" or gnashing their teeth and weeping at what they could have had.

If you receive additional revelations from God and you believe in them to interpret the Scriptures - it is an unreliable source.
And I am not saying that God is unreliable, but that you are, as a human.

Quite the opposite, death is described as a state of "sleep" all throughout the Bible. In sleep there is no conscienceness.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Psalm 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence"
.

And what is the context of the entire Ecclesiastes? It is what is happening under the sun.
- Dead do not know anything that is happening on this earth
- And people forget them

And of course they do not praise God. Why would they?
Look at the context below. They avoid God.

And this is what the rest of the Bible says -

The word "grave" is Sheol - the world of the departed dead. It is not grave. Other translations have as Sheol.


EZE 32:17 In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 18 "Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and consign to the earth below both her and the daughters of mighty nations, with those who go down to the pit. 19 Say to them, `Are you more favored than others? Go down and be laid among the uncircumcised.' 20 They will fall among those killed by the sword. The sword is drawn; let her be dragged off with all her hordes. 21 From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, `They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.'

ISA 14:9 The grave below is all astir

to meet you at your coming;

it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--

all those who were leaders in the world;

it makes them rise from their thrones--

all those who were kings over the nations.

ISA 14:10 They will all respond,

they will say to you,

"You also have become weak, as we are;

you have become like us."

ISA 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,

along with the noise of your harps;

maggots are spread out beneath you

and worms cover you.

You are believing one of satan's lies, those who sin "shall surely not die". I choose to believe what God says that the wages of sin is death.

Just because your personal understanding of the Bible is that death is a cessation of consciousness does not give you an authoruty to dogmatically state that the dead are not conscious.

Isaiah text above and Samuel's reappearance to King Saul show otherwise.

I used to believe the whole torment for ever thing because that is what most churches teach until I actually read and studying the Bible and realized that God's Word teaches quite the oppoisite, and overwhelmingly. There is beyond a doubt from God's Word that there is no place where people will be tormented for ever.

God Bless

You have no understanding of Hades/Sheol, so how can you understand the Burning Lake?
Or do you believe the personal revelations from God?

This is very frustrating.

Ed

 

[Lpe04]

This was a familiar spirit (evil spirit) impersonating Samuel. This is why God forbids siances and "contacting the dead" because people who do are messing with evil spirits. This is known as the occult. Saul had turned his back on God and went to see a witch. This was all very evil stuff.

In Corinthians Paul is addressing the Church of God, not unbelievers (duh). Even animals will receive spiritual bodies? Are you kidding me?

The punishment of death is eternal because the perished unbeliever will have no way to regain life.

If you are going to hold to your theology that unbelievers are tormented for ever, in all fairness to God's Word, you are first going to have to explain to yourself these verses (and there are hundreds of verses, but we'll start with these few). Since God's Word is infallible, you are going to have to make these verses work with your theology and thus you are going to have to explain them before you can continue to support what you do (I'm tired of people supporting their theology with a verse or two and throwing out and contradicting the rest of God's Word instead of trying to explain the verses in question).


"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna, representative of the Lake of Fire]" Matthew 10:28

"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' says the LORD of hosts, 'that will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go out and grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,' says the LORD of Hosts" (Malachi 4:1-3).

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (be reduced to ashes, cease to exist, etc.), but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (judgement); but is passed from death (not torment) unto life.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelations 21:18

"The wages of sin is death, the gift from God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23 (Unbelievers do not receive Eternal Life, thus they do not live for ever in "hell".)

God Bless

 

[Ginny]

one cannot debate with mentality that animals have spiritual bodies...what about the wasp I killed yesterday..or those pesky ants....that poor mosquito..

*runs scared*

 

[ertsky]

Ed i may be a little confused here LOL!

are you saying God will put people in a place of never ending torture ?

i'm only here because i don't want people to believe that God is going to take a person and torture them forever.

judge them yes many other things yes but never ending torture NO!

now is that your position or am i getting it wrong ?

my position at the moment and for the record is that God who is Love and commands us to love our enemies will not then turn around and torture people forever, that just seems like a silly thought to me

do you think our positions are mutually exclusive?

i'm saying God is not going to place people in the mythical "hell" of never ending torment ..you know the one ..further to that i am saying

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

are you saying His will won't be done?

 

[Lpe04]

Good point Ertsky,
Yes my Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death, and that every man is born in sin and is dead, and that Christ conquered over sin and thus death for us, and we no longer have to fear death, and those who beleive are given the gift of Eternal Life and won't have to face death (second death) because Christ has reedemed us to Eternal Life.
Also, my God, my Heavenly Father who I love and worship and who speaks to me and guides me and always provides for me and loves me, is nothing but love, mercy and compassion, even for His enemies.

It's gets frustrating seeing people throw out the entire Word of God and God's very nature because they run across a verse or two that can be explained another way. This is exactly what the Catholic Church does for the most part. And my saying is a belief is popular, it's probably not the Truth.

God Bless

 

[ertsky]

i hear you Lpe04

a few short weeks ago or has it been a month now already i got a megablessing from God that lifted me out of the miry clay and i came to see from reading over at Ray Smiths site that God was not going to torture non christians ..what a sweet moment that was when the yoke of false traditions was replaced with the gentle yoke of Jesus woohoo! (i love you Lord !)

since then it seems my fellow believers of all people are really attached to this doctrine of eternal torture and consider me the heretic for believing God is Love that God is Light and that there is no darkness in Him at all

well i'm thankful to Him that You for example are glad with me that He is good

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

with much love

ert

 

[Lpe04]

Bless you Ertsky,
Yes, I know my Heavenly Father and He is nothing but love, (so much love it has brought me to tears when He shows me glimpses of His kindness and love and mercy). These people who preach on this "hell, fire, damnation" are not preaching about my God. I know my God personally, and can guarantee that He would never torture anyone, including His enemies, especially for ever. Whenever I mention this they always question my revelations and my relationship with God like it's not possible for us to have one with Him.

The only one has no mercy and would torture anyone for ever is the god of this world, satan, (that's why when you see these images of what people see "hell" as being, satan is in charge). God is the complete opposite, and His mercy is infinite and beyond anything we can even comprehend.

God Bless

 

[Ginny]

let's put it this way...one NOT believing in an eternal hell won't make you lose your salvation .

I can't believe all this disregard for the word of God...just b/c you don't believe it when it's right infront of you doesn't make it so.

Plus, it isn't God torturing these people..they made their choice.This is just a way to make one feel better for all those people they know that reject Christ. You can believe there is a price to pay for this rejection. And all along it's their choice. They will be with Satan- God is not the God of Hell, but Satan is and that's where everyone will be that rejects Christ...don't go blaming Hell on God. That is not his stomping ground.

This verse was used:Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Those that are not saved are not children of God, making them obsolete from that verse.


"Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

are you saying His will won't be done? "

Are you saying that no one is going to Hell and that every person on this earth goes to Heaven? I believe you are saying that if you use it along with this verse (which you did) 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved

This is literally now out of hand.

 

[Ginny]

also.....if one believes that no one goes to Hell, there is no need for it to be addressed in the Bible, now, is it?

This is unreal.

 

[Reformationist]

Do you believe that everyone that doesn't believe in God goes to hell when they die?

That would depend on the manner in which you define "believe." Simply believing in the existence of God is not enough to constitute saving faith. There are three equally vital elements of saving faith, i.e., Notitia, a knowledge of the content of the Gospel, Assensus, an agreement in the veracity of the content of the Gospel, and Fiducia, a personal reliance upon the promises of God for our redemption and justification. All three are necessary for the appropriation of the benefits of the meritorious work of our Lord and Savior.

I know some amazing, wonderful, good people (including my husband) that don't believe in God, and I can't believe that that they will go to hell just for not believing in God.

Well, "good" is a relative term. If you compared the works of these "amazing, wonderful, good people" to the demands of God perfect justice you'd be forced to acknowledge that, by those same works, they've merited condemnation and destruction at the hands of a holy God, for the wages of sin are death. I have known many compassionate people who were non-believers but their works, while virtuous when compared to those of other people who claim the title of believer, still fall far short of God's demands. The bottom line is that whatsoever is not from faith in God is sin. By definition, a non-believer has no faith in God, therefore they do nothing from faith in God. As such, they doing nothing righteous in the eyes of God.

It seems an incredibly cruel punishment.

If one looks at the issue from a man-centered perspective then it may very well seem cruel. If, however, one addresses the issue from a theocentric perspective, the mercy of God in not annihilating the entirity of the human race for their acts of manifold cosmic treason becomes quite evident.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

If the person never had the chance to believe in God then no they won't go to Hell.

There is nothing in the Bible that even suggests such a thing, not to mention, it completely disregards the fact that it is God who determines who will come to know the Lord. "Chance" is a word that should be eradicated from all theological discussion for there is no such thing as "chance" in a biblically based theology. In fact, unless one is speaking of "chance" in a manner that reflects mathmatical probability, it is a term that is void of all rational meaning. In the events of creation there is only and always the surety of God's sovereign disposal.

God bless

 

[ertsky]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

the word specially there is


malista
Thayer Definition:
1) especially, chiefly, most of all, above all
Part of Speech: adverbial superlative

(very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

ok now lets see who wants to argue with this verse of scripture

 

[Ginny]

I say we are on page 14 of this hilarious debate...it is going in circles. No one's changing my mind- we're not changing yours. Actually, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. These conclusions are based on man's ability to not understand God and the consequences of not knowing Him.

Why are we saved? Saved from what? Saved from nothing, I guess on your terms. I guess we don't need a Saviour...there is no saving us from separation from Him (?)