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Hell
- Thread starter Vix
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Jerrysch said:
I guess my point would be that
todays 'MESSAGE' about -HELL-
(not whether it's eternal-torment, or not)...
-IS-
'shutting people out' of Christ's kingdom.
I find that when I'm talking to Non Christians....
Almost everytime,
the subject becomes:
'How can a loving God send people to hell?'
I blame
'the society of false messages'
for this.
I -ALSO- blame -IDIOT TEACHERS- who
-DON'T KNOW-
that it's easier to catch flys with -HONEY- , than with -VINEGAR-
Unless they're -WILLFULLY- deceiving people for money.
(Example: Tithing is -NOT- for a Christian. It's Old Covenant, like 'marry your brothers wife, if he dies'.However, a -GREEDY- -FALSE- SATANIC- 'agent', would say something like: 'You have robbed me of your tithes' (O.T.) ; then
the goof/pretender...
would say something like
'so pay me, or you'll burn'
(I've really seen such -IDIOTS- )
P.i.C.
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daverain said:
But you know we are not catching flys are we. Where does sin come into all of this? Where does repentance come in? When you stop speaking about sin and its punishment, you are doing a grave disservice to the person who is over his head in it and needs to be cleansed from it. If there is no punishment for sin, how serious can sin be? No, we are not catching flys, but we need to tell sinners the outcome of thier sin, namely that they will end up in the lake of fire for all eternity if they don't do something about their sin, Jesus provided a means to deal with their sin, to neglect to tell them about the lake of fire which awaits unrepentant sinners is the most serious mistake we can ever make when we set out to "spread the gospel".
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daverain said:
Forget hell, it is not the place of eternal punishment any way, the lake of fire is the place of eternal torment. If a person's name is not written in the Lambs book of life, that is where that person is going to spend all eternity. All of it. That is the truth of it. Now when you go out and spread the gospel, you will now see the urgency of it, it is eternality isn't it?
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Dear Lamb. I appreaciate your reply and respect your concerns.£amb said:
If s person rejects Christ in this life he will continue rejecting him even in the afterlife. You are correct.
JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
However, please understand. Many "non-believers" do not reject Christ, but reject us. Please accept this as a possibility. Many are also blinded by the Satan and the environment in general.
So, our job is to tell them about Jesus Christ.
We do not know about the point of death. However, we do know that Christ has the keys to the Hades ...
REV 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
That means no one gets to the Hades without Christ opening the doors for him. And he must "pass by" Christ in order to wind up in the Hades. One must reject Christ (to his face), or not to know about him, in order to wind up in the Hades.
And as I discussed, the ones that did not know him can be saved from the Hades. But the ones that rejected him (to his face) cannot be.
Thanks,
Ed
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Edial said:
Sadly you are mistaken, thee is no Biblical evidence to support what you are saying, I do not desire to make this a big thing with you, but I feel I would be wrong not saying what I have said. It is indeed a person's sin which causes him/her to be sent to the lake of fire. Redemption is offered in Jesus, but it is a person's sin that sends him to the lake of fire, not his rejection of Jesus. Rejection of the finished work of Christ keeps one from being redeemed, but it is sin which causes the result.
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Telrunya
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Jerrysch said:
I agree. We are all destined for the lake of fire because of our sin. It is only Jesus' Grace that saves us from that. Jesus himself mentioned that there will be many calling out his name and he will say that he never knew them.
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SH89
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Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.-john 3:18Jerrysch said:
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son
will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him
Mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
john 12:47 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
And finally,He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels(revelation 3:5)
Thus he who overcomes, by the blood of Jesus, will not be blotted out of the book of life. Those who choose to reject christ, their names will be blotted out
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ok is everyone agreed that sheol and hades should not be translated "hell" but rather the grave the unseen imperceptible or vanishing point ?
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
but rather an anticipation of the resurrection praise God!
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
well on to gehenna
where does anyone get the idea that gehenna is a place of eternal torment
i copied the following fron Ray Smiths excellent http://bible-truths.com
well i could rattle on but i'm really just here because i love the Lord and don't want anyone missing out on knowing that God loves His enemies and wont be torturing anyone for an eternity.
what a preposterous idea!
if anyone reading this (hehe assuming anyone would) think if you could torture or torment anyone for ever would you .
wouldn't you get sick and tired of it after awhile if you could do it at all.
i used to think i could torture kenny G for crimes against jazz but after a day or two i'm sure i'd realise that torturing kenny is worse than what he did to jazz and i'd repent and ask kenny to forgive me for being so mean and i'd apologise to God and i'm sure we could all work something out (no offense kenny g fans i love you and kenny, i just dont really dig kenny's stuff)
hey maybe kenny and i could jam
look i know this is all a little crazy but hey fight fire with fire LOL!
with much love to everyone in the sincere hope that none of us really believes that God would torture anyone forever and forever
i love my Father and it hurts me to think anyone would believe this
anyway remember if you are sick of reading ertsky's posts don't read em
and may the Lord make us all aware of His great Love with which He loves us
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
but rather an anticipation of the resurrection praise God!
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
well on to gehenna
where does anyone get the idea that gehenna is a place of eternal torment
i copied the following fron Ray Smiths excellent http://bible-truths.com
"Hell is called a place where the fire is never quenched and its worm dieth not."
No, Gehenna is where the fire is not quenched and the worms don't die. It's a burning, city garbage dump. No one quenches the fire. If someone quenched it, it would loose its useful purpose, namely to burn up the garbage, offal, and any criminals that are thrown there. The worms don't die, because there is plenty to eat and keep them breeding. When nothing more is thrown into the fire, it will go out. It won't need to be quenched. When the food supply runs out the worms will die. How do I know that? Because the Valley of Hinnom (south of Jerusalem) was burning in Christ's day with many worms and now the fire is gone and the worms are gone.. It is no longer used for that purpose. But it will again be used during the Millennium.
well i could rattle on but i'm really just here because i love the Lord and don't want anyone missing out on knowing that God loves His enemies and wont be torturing anyone for an eternity.
what a preposterous idea!
if anyone reading this (hehe assuming anyone would) think if you could torture or torment anyone for ever would you .
wouldn't you get sick and tired of it after awhile if you could do it at all.
i used to think i could torture kenny G for crimes against jazz but after a day or two i'm sure i'd realise that torturing kenny is worse than what he did to jazz and i'd repent and ask kenny to forgive me for being so mean and i'd apologise to God and i'm sure we could all work something out
(no offense kenny g fans i love you and kenny, i just dont really dig kenny's stuff)hey maybe kenny and i could jam
look i know this is all a little crazy but hey fight fire with fire LOL!
with much love to everyone in the sincere hope that none of us really believes that God would torture anyone forever and forever
i love my Father and it hurts me to think anyone would believe this
anyway remember if you are sick of reading ertsky's posts don't read em
and may the Lord make us all aware of His great Love with which He loves us
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Dear Jerrysch, I do not intend to make a big thing neither.Jerrysch said:
You are correct. It is the man's sin that sends him to the Burning Lake.
I am talking about the Hades, the afterlife that is before the Great Judgement.
If till the the Day of the Judgement the people will not receive Christ (and all will be given a chance to reject him) then their sins will "count" against them.
You are correct. It is the man's sine that sends him away.
And I did present verses, unless I am misunderstanding your statement.
Thanks,
Ed
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True.Telrunya said:
I think I mis-stated something, but I cannot find what, since 2nd person seems to disagree with me and I agree with him.
Thanks,
Ed
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michaeldimmickjr
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.
Vix said:
Romans 1:20 (King James Version)
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Your Brother in Christ,
Michael
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Edial said:
Hadies is actually a moot issue, in that it is not the final "state" of those who are not redeemed, all who have not their name in the Lams book f life will find themselves in the lake of fire. That is to be their final abode, and from that there is no escape. There is no Biblical evidence that those who have not experienced redemption in their life, that is while they were alive upon this earth, there is no Biblical basis for any sort of "sceound chance" as you are suggesting. It does not hinge upon accepting or rejecting Jesus it is based upon a persons sin. If they have not been redeemed from their sin, they aill find themselves in the lake of fire for all eternity. What makes you think otherwise?
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OK.Jerrysch said:
There is no escape from the Lake of Fire. Agree.Jerrysch said:
It appears you are mixing the Hades/Sheol with the Burning Lake.Jerrysch said:
Hades/Sheol is the world of the departed dead, the immediate afterlife of any person that was not saved by God through Jesus Christ.
The Judgement Day is upcoming. It is in the future. And all that ever lived and died will be judged. Then the Burning Lake part will take place.
Are you talking about the "second chance" from the Lake of Fire or the Hades?
I do not think otherwise.Jerrysch said:
There is no way to avoid the Lake of Fire for eternity if one is not redeemed.
However, the forgiveness for the sins is the redemption and one needs to receive Him.
What am I missing here? Are we talking about the same thing?
Please say specifically what you think I am misstating.
Thanks,
Ed
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Ginny
I like to whisper, too!
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According to Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal"
hmmm...everlasting? Yep, that's pretty much eternal. And oh yeah, if you want to keep arguing that hell is not eternal, I guess you would need to say that heaven in not eternal as well....it's in the same sentence!
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)
.....forever and ever..there it is again.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)
As a Christian, I do not feel it is edifying nor necessary to be worryingabout Hell when I will not be there. I have reservations elsewhere.
On the other hand, we better start believing and getting out of this "denial" about what hell is like so that we may have the ammunition and compassion to tell others about Jesus so they will not have to endure this eternal misery that God's word speaks of.
hmmm...everlasting? Yep, that's pretty much eternal. And oh yeah, if you want to keep arguing that hell is not eternal, I guess you would need to say that heaven in not eternal as well....it's in the same sentence!
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11)
.....forever and ever..there it is again.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)
As a Christian, I do not feel it is edifying nor necessary to be worryingabout Hell when I will not be there. I have reservations elsewhere.
On the other hand, we better start believing and getting out of this "denial" about what hell is like so that we may have the ammunition and compassion to tell others about Jesus so they will not have to endure this eternal misery that God's word speaks of.
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It should not be translated hell and it should not be translated grave.ertsky said:
Grave is "kevar" in Hebrew.
Sheol is the world of the departed dead. And Sheol and the Hades are the same place.
Back up a bit.ertsky said:
There is enough Scripture to sink a ship to show that people in the Sheol talk, argue, sleep, wake up, complain, some burn, some do not.
Eccl. 9:10 says what it says. And the rest of the Bible presents that the "dead" people are very much conscious in there.
Are you presenting the Ecclesiastes text thinking that no one else knows what is going on in the Sheol? I do not understand.
Good verses. But I presume you are talking about the upcoming resurrection. And that is in the future.ertsky said:
As I said before: "Back up a bit".
ertsky said:
Gehenna was a garbage dump where garbage was burned. The fire was always active, since new garbage was added. It is a historical fact.
Christ however, talked about a spiritual place where all takes a spiritual turn. According to the Christ it is a real spiritual place and he tells people to avoid it at all costs.
Do you really need verses?
ertsky said:
ertsky said:
You love the Lord ?? Really?
You are currently involved in a full-fledged argument against the Lord and his word. You are trying to convince anyone that will listen that the Lord did not mean what he said.
ertsky said:
ertsky said:
Do you know what type of a body will people have in the afterlife and what it can withstand?
Do you understand that the eternity ih the burning lake is a condition where time will no longer exist?
Do you need to impose your own understanding upon the Scriptures and then dismiss the words of the Christ because your own understanding is flawed?
What is this?
ertsky said:i used to think i could torture kenny G for crimes against jazz but after a day or two i'm sure i'd realise that torturing kenny is worse than what he did to jazz and i'd repent and ask kenny to forgive me for being so mean and i'd apologise to God and i'm sure we could all work something out
ertsky said:hey maybe kenny and i could jam
look i know this is all a little crazy but hey fight fire with fire LOL!
Are you certain you want to discuss serious matter?
ertsky said:
ertsky said:
Do you understand that only the worst of the worst will wind up in there? Do you believe in jails? Should we release all the criminals and see what happens?
ertsky said:
The posts are here to be read.ertsky said:
Ed
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
I've been reading through here and see all these references to eternal torment, everlasting punishment, everlasting destruction and so on. The problem is the bible only says that the devil, false prophet and the beast will be tormented night and day for ever and ever.
Did you ever think that everlasting punishment could mean a punishment that is permanent as in destruction, everlasting destruction is permenant, once destroyed there is no coming back therefore it is everlasting but actually may only last 1 second. The problem with all these interputations about people being tormented or punished in some on going fashion for all eternity is that in order to do so they would have to have eternal life which the bible clearly says they do not.
Did you ever think that everlasting punishment could mean a punishment that is permanent as in destruction, everlasting destruction is permenant, once destroyed there is no coming back therefore it is everlasting but actually may only last 1 second. The problem with all these interputations about people being tormented or punished in some on going fashion for all eternity is that in order to do so they would have to have eternal life which the bible clearly says they do not.
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Ginny if you look up in e-sword the word translated eternal everlasting etc etc
it is the greek word aeon or its adjective form aionios
recognise it? its eon
an eon is a period of time with a begining and an end would you translate it everlasting ? or forever and ever
just as hades is grave aeon is an eon
once these two shockingly bad translations are remedied the doctrine of hell vanishes
dont take my word for it
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
you say Ginny
As a Christian, I do not feel it is edifying nor necessary to be worryingabout Hell when I will not be there.
well great but what about the billions of people you seem quite happy to let burn in torment forever !
do you agree with this Ginny ? i think not !
http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/
Ginny you think i'm in denial and i think you are in denial
read the above links and please accept that i love you and respect you i wouldn't type all this if i didn't
yours in Him
ert
it is the greek word aeon or its adjective form aionios
recognise it? its eon
an eon is a period of time with a begining and an end would you translate it everlasting ? or forever and ever
just as hades is grave aeon is an eon
once these two shockingly bad translations are remedied the doctrine of hell vanishes
dont take my word for it
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
you say Ginny
As a Christian, I do not feel it is edifying nor necessary to be worryingabout Hell when I will not be there.
well great but what about the billions of people you seem quite happy to let burn in torment forever !
do you agree with this Ginny ? i think not !
http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/
Ginny you think i'm in denial and i think you are in denial
read the above links and please accept that i love you and respect you i wouldn't type all this if i didn't
yours in Him
ert
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Hey Ed
you probably picked my worst post to answer there are many others earlier
ok sheol i'll just c&p this from Rays site
Back up a bit.
There is enough Scripture to sink a ship to show that people in the Sheol talk, argue, sleep, wake up, complain, some burn, some do not.
so put a couple up please
you said these are good verses
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
so why isn't hades translated hell here
because then it would read hell where is your victory !!
hades is translated hell elsewhere why not here
OF COURSE we should avoid going to gehenna at all costs but we should also avoid telling people lies about God like
he's going to torture non christians forever
it's a LIE!
so who do you want to torture Edial
probably no-one but you say God does? !!
you probably picked my worst post to answer there are many others earlier
ok sheol i'll just c&p this from Rays site
- In Hebrew "Hell" is translated from the word sheol
- This same word sheol is translated into the English word "grave" thirty times in the Authorized Version
Back up a bit.
There is enough Scripture to sink a ship to show that people in the Sheol talk, argue, sleep, wake up, complain, some burn, some do not.
so put a couple up please
you said these are good verses
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
so why isn't hades translated hell here
because then it would read hell where is your victory !!
hades is translated hell elsewhere why not here
OF COURSE we should avoid going to gehenna at all costs but we should also avoid telling people lies about God like
he's going to torture non christians forever
it's a LIE!
so who do you want to torture Edial
probably no-one but you say God does? !!
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