Hell

Soul Searcher said:

Ahh the second death, so little info on this subject. Did you ever consider that the second death could be the death of sin, and not sinners?

Actually the bible does not tells us much about the book of life, some believe it is a metaphor for Jesus, If thats the case then yes it is.

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I don't think it was anything but what the text says...."15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. " I think it is clear as to its meaning. Anyone whose name is not in the book of life will end up in the lake of fire. Do you think it would be worth knowing that ones name is written in that book? Is yours there? Would it be worth knowing?

ertsky said:

i don't believe it is possible to experience Gods best and teach and believe that God will torture people forever.

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Then I don't think you view sin as seriously as God does (?). For He has stated clearly in Scripture that those who die without the forgivenance of their sin shall spend eternity in the lake of fire.

ertsky said:

i think men will turn to Him if they can see Him in us rather than out of an unscriptural torture thingo

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Actually they need to be made aware of the terrible result thier sin will bring upon them. Unforgiven sin brings eternal death, Jesus provides eternal life, His blood paid the penalty for sin, this is the gospel, that one need not perish but have everlasting life.

Lpe04 said:

Hey Daverain,
It's great to see a fellow brother in Christ witnessing to others about Christ. I respect your opinion but can't agree with your belief in eternal torment because a) it contradicts God's Word b) it contradicts God's nature and c) it contradicts the historical beliefs of Christianity/Judiaism. I have posted before on all of this, but you can get more info at http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455 and http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/HL/index.htm

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So then for what reason did Christ come and shed His blood?

Jerrysch said:

So then for what reason did Christ come and shed His blood?

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Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

to bring many sons and daughters to glory

to set us free from the law of sin and death

and many other marvellous things

Jerrysch

where do you find in the bible that God will torture anyone for and eternity?

it is His mercy that endures forever not eternal torment!

i cannot find eternal torment in the bible, i can find some very bad translations of the original greek and hebrew words however once the original inspired hebrew and greek words are looked up and understood the blasphemy of eternal torment vanished like the man made satan inspired myth that it is !

Jerrysch said:

Actually they need to be made aware of the terrible result thier sin will bring upon them. Unforgiven sin brings eternal death, Jesus provides eternal life, His blood paid the penalty for sin, this is the gospel, that one need not perish but have everlasting life.

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Hey, here you support the fact that unbelievers will perish (be reduced to ashes, cease to exist, face the Second Death) and only believers will have everlasting life. This is the truth of the Word and God's nature. But earlier you supported eternal torment, so which is it?

People can either choose to accept one parable (story) as the truth (which is easily explainable) and throw out the rest of God's Word, or people can look at God's Word in the whole and realize that it was a story Jesus was telling because the entire rest of the Bible speaks otherwise. Also to think this was a true story means to think that people who are suffering will be able to see people in Paradise and vice versa and will be yelling at those in Paradise for help.

About the Biblical scholar, E.W. Bullinger is one that comes to mind. He spent his entire life studying the Word and wrote the Companion Bible. The more you get into the Word the more you realize that eternal torment is just not true. I believed it too when I was young in the Word and in my Christian walk with God. Also check out the scholars teachings on the subject at http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455 (although these guys aren't accredited scholars, they have been in the Word over 20-30 years).

Christ came to conquer over sin and thus death and to win back the authority that man (Adam) had given to satan and death. "For the wages of sin is death, the gift from God is everlasting life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Christ conquered over death for us (this was the Resurrection) so we would receive the free gift of Eternal Life by believing in Him and we too would not have to face the wages of sin, which is death (not eternal torment) because He lived the sinless life for us.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death (not eternal torment) through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" Romans 5:12

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death (not eternal torment) reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. " Romans 5:17

"So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

"Death has been swallowed up in victory."
"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O grave, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory (over death) through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:54-57

God Bless

Lpe04 said:

One time I was having trouble with this doctrine (when I used to believe it) and I asked God if this where true. He said "Now what do you think? You know me and who I am. Many people have changed the free gift offered by my Son into a choice that must be made to avoid eternal torment. Do you see how ridiculous this is?" Now I understand.
God Bless

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Interesting, A while back I was doing some soul searching, I just could not come to terms with the idea of anyone being tormented for all eternity. I thought this just makes no sense at all, no matter what line of thought I used I always came to the same conclusion which was no way would God do such a thing. I prayed for an answer and asked God if I was wrong for thinking this way, the response I got was "you are a wise man"

Lpe04 said:

Hey Daverain,


It's great to see a fellow brother in Christ witnessing to others about Christ.

I respect your opinion but can't agree with your belief in eternal torment because

b)
it contradicts God's nature

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Dear Lpe04,

In reply:

Paragraph 1:
------------
First of all, thanks, and thanks as well, for talking with me. I -always- enjoy -exploring- 'who God is', etc. , with fellow 'vessels of light' .


The Rest:
---------

I feel that a -MAIN- -ISSUE- in all of this, is...

that

-IF-

there (hypothetically) were a

'place of torment'...

this does -NOT- (necessarily)

mean that:

- GOD - would -WANT- anyone to -GO THERE- .


In other words...


it -WOULDN'T- contradict - GOD'S NATURE -...

if :

He -DOESN'T- want people to go there (which is what -I- feel the bible declares: That - GOD - -DOESN'T- want people to go there. )

(It would be -ONLY- -IF- God -WANTED- people to go there, that it would -CONTRADICT- His Nature. )





Peace in Christ.





.

I want to go to heaven.I don't want anyone to go to hell.No one has to go to hell.If people live the life by the word of god they won't go to hell.

What a wonderful thing it will be if you accept Christ, and then, through your influence, your husband eventually does the same. It's great when you've been praying for someone, and that person comes to the Lord.

ertsky said:

Jerrysch

where do you find in the bible that God will torture anyone for and eternity?

it is His mercy that endures forever not eternal torment!

i cannot find eternal torment in the bible, i can find some very bad translations of the original greek and hebrew words however once the original inspired hebrew and greek words are looked up and understood the blasphemy of eternal torment vanished like the man made satan inspired myth that it is !

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Rev 20: 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Lpe04 said:

Hey, here you support the fact that unbelievers will perish (be reduced to ashes, cease to exist, face the Second Death) and only believers will have everlasting life. This is the truth of the Word and God's nature. But earlier you supported eternal torment, so which is it?


God Bless

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I am suggesting that those whose name is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. If you think I have stated it otherwise, we have had a misunderstanding.

Lpe04 said:

People can either choose to accept one parable (story) as the truth (which is easily explainable) and throw out the rest of God's Word, or people can look at God's Word in the whole and realize that it was a story Jesus was telling because the entire rest of the Bible speaks otherwise. Also to think this was a true story means to think that people who are suffering will be able to see people in Paradise and vice versa and will be yelling at those in Paradise for help.

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Well we can argue about this all till kingdom come, but the real important issue is what have you done to insure that you do not end up in the lake of fire? Is your name written in the Lambs book of life? Is it?, how do you know, whould it be worth knowing without a doubt?

philmwri said:

I want to go to heaven.I don't want anyone to go to hell.No one has to go to hell.If people live the life by the word of god they won't go to hell.

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How is this accomplished? What about sin?

Vix said:

This was touched upon in another thread, but I wanted to ask christians what they thought. Do you believe that everyone that doesn't believe in God goes to hell when they die?

I know some amazing, wonderful, good people (including my husband) that don't believe in God, and I can't believe that that they will go to hell just for not believing in God. It seems an incredibly cruel punishment.

Any thoughts?

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Hi Vix

I would just like to encourage you.

Only God knows who has made a decision to turn to him. Your husband may secretly have made that decision. You dont have to attend church to have opened a channel with Jesus Christ.

All good and perfect gifts are from God- could your husband be a 'good' person without some sort of input from God?

In any event he doesnt seem to be too far from the Kingdom. Becoming a Christian doesnt involve everyone going through the exact same process and all giving the same yearbook answer. God meets you at a point of need- somewhere that is relevant to you. Its you asking God for help and your response to him thats important. Conviction of sin may come with this or after you are saved.

Romans 10v9 'if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead then you will be saved'

If you pray one prayer to Jesus then you are accepting he is sovereign and that he is alive

God Bless

Lismore

Jerrysch said:

Rev 20: 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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and where in any of those blessed verses does it say that God will torture unbelievers forever?

are you suggesting verse 15 makes God an eternal torturer

have you not read that our God is a consuming fire ? and that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God ?

do you not know that fire purifies ?

explain these verses Hell man (i chide you gently and with great affection)

Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
Luk 10:13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
Luk 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


if all unbelievers are tortured forever how could it possibly more tolerable for anyone ??

i saw some unbelievers on TV tonight and they were BEAUTIFUL i felt they were far more beautiful than i have ever been they were so cute and lovely and now you tell me Hell Man that my heavenly Father will torture them forever ARGH!!!!!!!!!! what is wrong with you man ?

i plead with you hell preachers repent of this madness

His mercy endures forever !

daverain said:

Dear Lpe04,

---------

I feel that a -MAIN- -ISSUE- in all of this, is...

that

-IF-

there (hypothetically) were a

'place of torment'...

this does -NOT- (necessarily)

mean that:

- GOD - would -WANT- anyone to -GO THERE- .


In other words...


it -WOULDN'T- contradict - GOD'S NATURE -...

if :

He -DOESN'T- want people to go there (which is what -I- feel the bible declares: That - GOD - -DOESN'T- want people to go there. )

(It would be -ONLY- -IF- God -WANTED- people to go there, that it would -CONTRADICT- His Nature. )

Peace in Christ.

.

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Hey brother,
I appreciate your views. The only reason I can't except this view is that if God didn't want anyone to end up in this "hell of eternal torment" then no one would go there. Remeber, God is in charge of all, He makes the choices over His creation. When God created the world and set up what would happen to unbelievers, He could have choosen "death/perishing/Second Death" or Eternal Torment, since you even understand that God would never torment anyone and would not have them go there, then He would set it up for unbelievers to perish, not to be tormented for ever. This compliments my Heavenly Father's nature and matches with His Word.

God Bless

Jerrysch said:

Well we can argue about this all till kingdom come, but the real important issue is what have you done to insure that you do not end up in the lake of fire? Is your name written in the Lambs book of life? Is it?, how do you know, whould it be worth knowing without a doubt?

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I haven't done anything but have faith in Christ and believe in what He has done. He is the one who has done it all for us. Yes, my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. This is a metaphor for people who are saved. God's Word says so, God also speaks through me in tongues, I receive revelations from Him through the Holy Spirit, He has healed me, I have had discerning of spirits. All of these are manifestations of the Holy Spirit and proof beyond a doubt that you have the Holy Spirit and are saved. Also my Heavenly has shown me that I'm saved and told me that He will love me forever.

God Bless

ertsky said:

and where in any of those blessed verses does it say that God will torture unbelievers forever?

are you suggesting verse 15 makes God an eternal torturer

have you not read that our God is a consuming fire ? and that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God ?

do you not know that fire purifies ?

explain these verses Hell man (i chide you gently and with great affection)

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I am quoting scripture to you I have not spoken one word regarding torture. It is others who are speaking of torture, not I