Hell, Visions and Mary K Baxter

[ACL]

I'm too new on here to post links but if anybody has any free time could you head over to you tube and watch Mary K Baxter's video on her tour of hell which Jesus took her on to warn people on the dangers of not accepting him and backsliding.I personally did not enjoy her account of Hell and am sceptical but really wanted other opinions.It certainly raises some questions as why God spent so long sadistically creating this place and why demons and the Devil enjoy so much power here. There is no punishment for them only delight in the torture of the lost and fallen Christians. It also advocates loss of salvation and a grace based on human works. Th imagery is like something from a low rate 70s horror movie. Please note I do believe in Hell for those who choose it and I admit I am not sure if the human mind can really grasp eternity. The other issue with this is why would Jesus choose her to tell this tale, wasn't his teaching enough. Also it creates a salvation based on absolute fear of a sadistic God rather than the love of God. An almost negative salvation?

 

[contango]

I'm too new on here to post links but if anybody has any free time could you head over to you tube and watch Mary K Baxter's video on her tour of hell which Jesus took her on to warn people on the dangers of not accepting him and backsliding.I personally did not enjoy her account of Hell and am sceptical but really wanted other opinions.It certainly raises some questions as why God spent so long sadistically creating this place and why demons and the Devil enjoy so much power here. There is no punishment for them only delight in the torture of the lost and fallen Christians. It also advocates loss of salvation and a grace based on human works. Th imagery is like something from a low rate 70s horror movie. Please note I do believe in Hell for those who choose it and I admit I am not sure if the human mind can really grasp eternity. The other issue with this is why would Jesus choose her to tell this tale, wasn't his teaching enough. Also it creates a salvation based on absolute fear of a sadistic God rather than the love of God. An almost negative salvation?

For what it's worth I don't think there's an issue with a place like hell existing. If people don't want to be in the presence of God then they merely go to the place they chose themselves, a place with no goodness in it. In a place with no goodness it's hardly surprising that everything is pretty grim.

I'd tend to be sceptical of people who insist that "Jesus showed me..." unless it was something for them personally. Otherwise it seems like a convenient attempt to short-circuit any form of consideration, testing, critiquing etc. You get to play the "you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Jesus himself" card.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I am very wary of anybody who travels long distances except in an aeroplane

 

[ACL]

For what it's worth I don't think there's an issue with a place like hell existing. If people don't want to be in the presence of God then they merely go to the place they chose themselves, a place with no goodness in it. In a place with no goodness it's hardly surprising that everything is pretty grim.

I'd tend to be sceptical of people who insist that "Jesus showed me..." unless it was something for them personally. Otherwise it seems like a convenient attempt to short-circuit any form of consideration, testing, critiquing etc. You get to play the "you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Jesus himself" card.

I take your point completely. Baxter seems to portray hell as a sadistic punishment place shaped like a body with varying degrees of punishment in the heart of the earth. Former Christians get tormented by Demons as they scream for Jesus and try to belatedly repent and homosexuals are chained together in another place. Apparently the devil even sits on a throne and the demons go through the depths of hell and pick certain victims to be chucked to lions for sport. The whole account thing seems very strange.

 

[Messy]

I remember I read some of it 20 years ago and I got so completely depressed and upset, a guy in my students home said: What's up? He had never seen me like that, so I told him what I read and he was studying to become a reformed preacher and he said: Stop reading such things and read the Bible.

 

[Ajax 777]

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[DennisTate]

My wife was guided to recently ask that I watch the Mark K Baxter and then the Bill Wiese interview from the Sid Roth program. Scary.... and powerful............ and challenging........

 

[Alive_Again]

It also advocates loss of salvation and a grace based on human works.

The messages of accountability are kind of shaking for those who don't believe in it. The Bible preaches accountability all through it. Christians are warned because many think grace holds back judgment on unrepented sin.

Grace is for the repentant. If you don't have a full understanding of the gospel message, it can only seem like a works oriented message, but actually it's a fruit oriented judgment. You can choose to yield to the Holy Spirit and produce godly fruit (with a good reward) by grace, or you can sow to the flesh and reap corruption.

I guess people are fortunate not to have experience some fleshly issues and other strongholds and have that called into question. Many believers suffer from strongholds that cause serious sin and it is something that must be addressed, because we want to be sowing on the good side (by grace), not reaping judgment.

I got so much out of her Heaven account and it God was all in it. I knew the Hell thing but prefer to consider the Heaven account, but everyone must be warned (including believers).

 

[JGiddings]

Jesus doesn't take people on tours.
I also don't believe in the prevalent views of the current church that espouses Dante's vision of Hell. Scripture doesn't teach it, but that's for a whole other thread.

 

[K2K]

I've read her books, but not seen any of her video's

Of course we don't know about her testimony. It is her testimony. But as Christians, we must believe in a place that must match up somewhat with her testimonty.

Jesus talked talked more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. But of course, He would have been the best qualified to talk about it. And what He said sounds alot like the testimony of Mary K. Baxter. It is clearly a place nobody would want to spend eternity.

We like to think, how can a loving God create such a horrible place for people to be put into? Yet He has. To say we don't like it is of no importance. We have to believe it exists if we are really gone claim to be Christian.

Since we believe hell exists, we should not want to go there, thus we should be encouraged to get to know Him. Thus Mary K Baxter's testimony, whether we like it or not, is a testimony that encourages people to seek the Lord. But perhaps it doesn't encourage some as much as others.

If I say I don't believe her testimony, then I am not going to be encourage to seek the Lord because of it. And that same thing would be true for the testimony of Jesus Christ about hell. Thus a scoffer who claims to be a Christian has to ignore the testimony of Jesus Christ concerning hell. So that person would scoff and any testimony about hell, simply because he is an unbeliever, no matter what he says he is.

So the scoffer, is alway going to deny it. The scoffer will deny hell's existence despite the fact that it is testified to by Jesus Christ. And the scoffer will deny hell's existence despite Mary K. Baxter's testimony.

When the Lord made me aware of His existence, I was surprise to find that He was always there to be found by anyone. God is omni-present, so how often do we listen to what He has to say each day. Amazingly, most people don't hear a word He says to them on any day. Many Christian rarely hear Him speak to them on any day, but He is always there.

So He made believing that He is exist, and He is the Great I Am, to be what saves us. The unbeliever spends his entire life denying the existance of the God who is always around. That is a whole life time, second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, and year after year of denying God who was always waiting for them to just turn and seek Him. And just a little belief, and a little time seeking Him with faith gives you eternity in heaven. So considering that, how can we really think that not turning to the Lord in a life time is not deserving enternal punishment?

Frankly, we all deserve hell, and even hell according to the testimony of Jesus Christ and/or Mary K. Baxter. We deserve it because we should always be seeking the Lord who is always with us. But even an incredibly small percent of out time spent seeking the voice of the Lord gives us an enterity of heaven.

I believe Mary Baxter's testimony. Partly because it sound something like what Jesus testified to, and partly because it would get those people who are not scoffers to seek the Lord. Yet the accuracy of her specific testimony is unimportant. The testimony of Jesus Christ is important. Since He explained that hell did exist, and describe it with terrifying description Himself, you had better not doubt it existance.

 

[ACL]

I've read her books, but not seen any of her video's

Of course we don't know about her testimony. It is her testimony. But as Christians, we must believe in a place that must match up somewhat with her testimonty.

Jesus talked talked more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. But of course, He would have been the best qualified to talk about it. And what He said sounds alot like the testimony of Mary K. Baxter. It is clearly a place nobody would want to spend eternity.

We like to think, how can a loving God create such a horrible place for people to be put into? Yet He has. To say we don't like it is of no importance. We have to believe it exists if we are really gone claim to be Christian.

Since we believe hell exists, we should not want to go there, thus we should be encouraged to get to know Him. Thus Mary K Baxter's testimony, whether we like it or not, is a testimony that encourages people to seek the Lord. But perhaps it doesn't encourage some as much as others.

If I say I don't believe her testimony, then I am not going to be encourage to seek the Lord because of it. And that same thing would be true for the testimony of Jesus Christ about hell. Thus a scoffer who claims to be a Christian has to ignore the testimony of Jesus Christ concerning hell. So that person would scoff and any testimony about hell, simply because he is an unbeliever, no matter what he says he is.

So the scoffer, is alway going to deny it. The scoffer will deny hell's existence despite the fact that it is testified to by Jesus Christ. And the scoffer will deny hell's existence despite Mary K. Baxter's testimony.

When the Lord made me aware of His existence, I was surprise to find that He was always there to be found by anyone. God is omni-present, so how often do we listen to what He has to say each day. Amazingly, most people don't hear a word He says to them on any day. Many Christian rarely hear Him speak to them on any day, but He is always there.

So He made believing that He is exist, and He is the Great I Am, to be what saves us. The unbeliever spends his entire life denying the existance of the God who is always around. That is a whole life time, second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day, and year after year of denying God who was always waiting for them to just turn and seek Him. And just a little belief, and a little time seeking Him with faith gives you eternity in heaven. So considering that, how can we really think that not turning to the Lord in a life time is not deserving enternal punishment?

Frankly, we all deserve hell, and even hell according to the testimony of Jesus Christ and/or Mary K. Baxter. We deserve it because we should always be seeking the Lord who is always with us. But even an incredibly small percent of out time spent seeking the voice of the Lord gives us an enterity of heaven.

I believe Mary Baxter's testimony. Partly because it sound something like what Jesus testified to, and partly because it would get those people who are not scoffers to seek the Lord. Yet the accuracy of her specific testimony is unimportant. The testimony of Jesus Christ is important. Since He explained that hell did exist, and describe it with terrifying description Himself, you had better not doubt it existance.

I agree with what you have said but what happens if a Christian has an addiction problem or mental illness or even commits suicide and yet they are a believer. Does that potentially mean they loose salvation? If that is the case then salvation isn't an acceptance prayer at a point in time but an ongoing process which has yet to be decided for anyone until the end of their earthly existence.

A second area of interest is that she says aborted babies go straight to heaven. Listening to her account it sounds better and safer if we had all been aborted babies. At least that way we would avoid the pitfalls of sin and addictions and not have to risk entering hell.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I am very wary of anybody who travels long distances except in an aeroplane

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Apparently the devil even sits on a throne"

Which SHOULD be a dead giveaway to the SOURCE of the "Vision".

Hell isn't the devil's "Kingdom" - it's his punishment/doom.

Chances are that neither he, nor any of his folks would go within a thousand miles of hell - if the have a choice.

Dante's little fantasy seems to have become the "Defining theology" for the place.

 

[Alithis]

I agree with what you have said but what happens if a Christian has an addiction problem or mental illness or even commits suicide and yet they are a believer. Does that potentially mean they loose salvation? If that is the case then salvation isn't an acceptance prayer at a point in time but an ongoing process which has yet to be decided for anyone until the end of their earthly existence.

A second area of interest is that she says aborted babies go straight to heaven. Listening to her account it sounds better and safer if we had all been aborted babies. At least that way we would avoid the pitfalls of sin and addictions and not have to risk entering hell.

except we have no right to take the life of another without permission ..that is murder ,so we are unable to "send" them there .
i do note in her account the unborn did not automatically get saved -they had the gospel taught to them .. and without the hindrance of the flesh and the deceiver ,they believed in Jesus as they grew and learned ,and therein lay their salvation .

i do not know why some people got all depressed reading it .i got excited and desired to know God more .

 

[ACL]

"Apparently the devil even sits on a throne"

Which SHOULD be a dead giveaway to the SOURCE of the "Vision".

Hell isn't the devil's "Kingdom" - it's his punishment/doom.

Chances are that neither he, nor any of his folks would go within a thousand miles of hell - if the have a choice.

Dante's little fantasy seems to have become the "Defining theology" for the place.

I agree that her statement about the Devil sitting on a throne should be a give-away in regards to the source however I've heard it taught that Hell is a temporary place before his judgement, after the judgement his punishment is actually the Abyss. After saying this your right, in her account the Devil and Demons have great delight in torture[ her definition of Hell is an eternal state],therefore it seems they never endure punishment.

 

[ACL]

except we have no right to take the life of another without permission ..that is murder ,so we are unable to "send" them there .
i do note in her account the unborn did not automatically get saved -they had the gospel taught to them .. and without the hindrance of the flesh and the deceiver ,they believed in Jesus as they grew and learned ,and therein lay their salvation .

i do not know why some people got all depressed reading it .i got excited and desired to know God more .

Yes your right, I forgot the children were taught salvation and then believed.

 

[St Phoebe]

I have not watched Mary Baxter's visions of hell but I have read many others. There are many denominations that teach that hell will not be forever or not real. My thoughts are what do we have to lose if we believe these accounts. Jesus spoke about hell and He said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For anyone's teeth to gnash, it must be bad. What if we don't believe it and come find that it is true, now that is scary. I must admit when I read these counters, I know that I do not want to end up there and I do find myself wanting a closer walk with God. I know that people interpret the fear of the Lord in different ways and when reading hell stories we do get scared and I find that it is ok to fear God in that way also. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom also the fear of the Lord makes men turn from evil. I don't know if this is a good example but if I look at the children today, parents can’t give them hiding anymore and they actually do not even fear their parents and the types of things that the kids are doing today, it is so bad because they fear nothing. My God is a loving God and also a consuming fire. Jeremiah 5:22 Should you not fear me, declares the Lord, should you not tremble in my presence. Sometimes I wonder if people maybe refuse to believe that hell exists because we do not want a God that we must fear. I believe God is loving and it is so easy for me to love a God like that but I also believe that I must fear Him. So if hell is not true and people are lying and if the devil is behind it, why is my big question? When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub, prince of the devils, Jesus said if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. I believe it is worse to believe that hell does not exist and to find that it does then to believe it actually exists. When and where is not all that important to me, God is timeless.

 

[Tobias]

I kind of remember Baxter in her book on hell, saying repeatedly that the whole point of the vision was that Christians do end up going there. Like perhaps all the rest of the vision was just, vision stuff? Maybe just filler to get the main point across?

It didn't mean anything to me back when I read it. I wanted to know what she saw, not the reason for it! But now that I've had my own vision of hell (or hades, at least), I wonder what the purpose is for these things.

I don't often mention the details of my visions because they involve characters from Greek mythology. Hekate, the one who rescued Persephone from Hades in some stories, was the one who first led me into the Underworld. She carried two torches, just like what the myths describe about her. She led me back and forth a couple of times, to make sure I knew how to get in and out of the Underworld without any problems.

Meanwhile I could feel God carefully watching from a distance. He was immediately there to rescue me when I ran into problems once. I never got the "ick" feeling from any of the "gods" I met from Greek mythology. They were simply the characters we know from the myths. With some details that make them unique. Like Persephone is not the Queen of the Underworld. She's just a person who had a "hellish" experience ( ) , and is forever changed by it. Not damaged, but stronger.

When I made it into Hades' domain, where the souls of the deceased are imprisoned, I was taken before him to have a "chat". Off in the distance I could hear the voice of someone I knew calling out to me. But Hades made it very clear to me that I was not allowed to talk to any of the prisoners. He could sense that I was distracted by the person calling me, and that I was half wondering if I could get away with it once I was done talking to him; so Hades made me look directly at him and repeat his rules back to him!

And if that was all there is to the story, I wouldn't bother telling it here. But this is where things turn... Christian? I feel that God has sent me back into Hades' realm, without an escort and without having to report to Hades; and I have talked to this same person that was calling me and set him free. He was a strong Christian but had gone down their willingly when his wife died. She was always a borderline Christian, and for some reason believed she deserved punishment rather than heaven. So when she died sometime after him, he chose to go into hades with her.

I felt like God sent me to them. And all I did was say something stupid to her like, "Well I think you deserve heaven". She took that as an act of forgiveness and was immediately able to forgive herself! And then they were set fee to go to Paradise where they continue to live while she works though the rest of her feelings.

I still don't know what to make of these "visions". I don't believe in Purgatory, but it seems that I have encountered a place where people can be in suffering for a time after death, but then still end up in heaven. The one scripture that justifies this keeps running through me every time I ponder the visions. "I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church."

Could it be that we have our Christian mythology wrong, when we believe that the final judgement happens for each individual right after the moment they die? The scriptures talk of the Great White Throne Judgement that happens sometime after the 1000 year reign of Christ. We have added another one in that is more convenient for our theology, and want to think that people are properly sorted between heaven and hell from the moment they die. But that is not what the scriptures say!


Maybe Baxter's entire message is that "Christians end up in hell". We tend to get wrapped up in the movie-type script of the vision, wanting to know details of the afterlife because it fascinates us. If so, then my vision has a similar message, that "The gates of Hades shall not prevail against the Church" means that God can still rescue people from hell if they are willing! Never mind the Greek mythology part of the vision that gets us to that point.

Or, maybe the whole thing is bogus. Which is why I don't usually talk about it.

 

[ACL]

Other verses which may support what your saying or at least support the premise that Christians hold great forgiving or damning power are Matthew 16:19, the keys to the kingdom and John 20:23, the power of the disciple forgiving or retaining sin.

I take it you or many on here do not believe in "once saved always saved" as the concept you and Baxter touch on is of Christians through sin or lack of faith [maybe the same thing] entering into Hell.

It had never occurred to me that the Great White Throne Judgement would happen at the point of ones death so I see what you are saying. My limited understanding is that Hell would be thrown into the Abyss after the great judgement [which is only for unbelievers] there the Demons and Satan would suffer, notice in Baxter's account they don't suffer but inflict torment in Hell. Maybe they do actually meet their punishment in the Abyss.

Also what is Eternity? Is it forever as many understand it to be. We only understand the concept of Eternity within the limited and linear concept of time. Again this may support your vision of forgiving or freeing the couple from Hell. The abyss after the Great White Throne Judgement may well be a different matter though.

Your vision and Baxter's make the assumption or rest on the assumption that non Christians[ for want of a better word ] go straight to hell, Tobias how do you reconcile that with all the Ghosts and apparitions people see or have seen? How does the Astral plane fit in with this? I know many Christians say that ghosts and apparitions are Demons in disguise but this seems a bit of a black and white answer and appears to whitewash a very complex subject.

Last point how do you distinguish between a dream and a vision? I've never had a vision so am interested. Anyway thanks for sharing your vision.

 

[Alithis]

Other verses which may support what your saying or at least support the premise that Christians hold great forgiving or damning power are Matthew 16:19, the keys to the kingdom and John 20:23, the power of the disciple forgiving or retaining sin.

I take it you or many on here do not believe in "once saved always saved" as the concept you and Baxter touch on is of Christians through sin or lack of faith [maybe the same thing] entering into Hell.

It had never occurred to me that the Great White Throne Judgement would happen at the point of ones death so I see what you are saying. My limited understanding is that Hell would be thrown into the Abyss after the great judgement [which is only for unbelievers] there the Demons and Satan would suffer, notice in Baxter's account they don't suffer but inflict torment in Hell. Maybe they do actually meet their punishment in the Abyss.

Also what is Eternity? Is it forever as many understand it to be. We only understand the concept of Eternity within the limited and linear concept of time. Again this may support your vision of forgiving or freeing the couple from Hell. The abyss after the Great White Throne Judgement may well be a different matter though.

Your vision and Baxter's make the assumption or rest on the assumption that non Christians[ for want of a better word ] go straight to hell, Tobias how do you reconcile that with all the Ghosts and apparitions people see or have seen? How does the Astral plane fit in with this? I know many Christians say that ghosts and apparitions are Demons in disguise but this seems a bit of a black and white answer and appears to whitewash a very complex subject.

Last point how do you distinguish between a dream and a vision? I've never had a vision so am interested. Anyway thanks for sharing your vision.

read the book "visions beyond the veil" ghosts, apparitions , familiar spirits .. all demonic .. all deception and distraction from the Gospel ..the one thing the adversary does not want people to hear know or believe .