Hell Over The Holidays

[Evergreen48]

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Just a few questions: What is 'Shab'; as in 'Shab. 149a; comp.' and 'Ned.' as in (Ned. 8b). (in the above article), the abbreviation for? Also, if the books of 'Judith', and the 'Book of Enoch' would be likely to lend any wisdom or spiritual guidance to us, why do you suppose they were not included in the Old Testament Canon? And as the Jews had many erroneous beliefs and practices concerning God, why should we cling to those beliefs and practices, especially if Jesus, who was 'the way, the truth and the life, did not affirm them as truth? Because Jesus used Gehenna's destruction to teach His disciples (after all, it was a place where perpetual fires were kept burning so as to rid the city of all contemptuous matter, including the bodies of dead criminals (law breakers) who were not thought worthy of a proper burial.) does not affirm what the ancient Jews believed about it. And where did the ancient Jews get this information about Gehenna, anyway?

 

[Der Alte]

.
I plugged Der Über Älter into an online translator and it came back: The Over Old. What is that supposed to mean: too old? aged? ancient? over the hill?

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Re: Der Über Älter, the word Älter with the umlaut, two dots above the "A" means "Elder." The nickname of the first president of Germany after WWII was "Der Älter", "The Elder." The word "Uber" has been a colloquial expression for some time. It is used to express "senior to" or "superior to." Since I have personal memories of VJ and VE days, the death of FDR, etc. I think I qualify.

 

[Der Alte]

You are still making assertions without support. Here is something I posted earlier in the thread and several times before. It has largely been ignored. Wonder why the ancient Jews, who actually spoke and read Hebrew, do not support your assumptions/presuppositions?

Note this documents the beliefs of the ancient Jews before the time of Christ. The supporting scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a).A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince:
"I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

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Just a few questions: What is 'Shab'; as in 'Shab. 149a; comp.' and 'Ned.' as in (Ned. 8b). (in the above article), the abbreviation for?

They are tractates, different volumes, of the Talmud. Much of The Talmud is available online in at least two places.

Also, if the books of 'Judith', and the 'Book of Enoch' would be likely to lend any wisdom or spiritual guidance to us, why do you suppose they were not included in the Old Testament Canon?

The faith and practice of the Jews was based on the writings they considered authoritative before the birth of Christ. That the church did not canonize some of those writings is largely irrelevant, unless a specific teaching is shown to contradict other scripture.

And as the Jews had many erroneous beliefs and practices concerning God, why should we cling to those beliefs and practices, especially if Jesus, who was 'the way, the truth and the life, did not affirm them as truth?

Logical fallacy, poisoning the well. That the Jews may have had some erroneous beliefs, which you have not specifically identified, does not negate any other belief. You made a claim, about Jesus, which if any specific beliefs and practices, relating to this topic, did Jesus not affirm as truth? In fact, Jesus told the multitude to do what the leaders told them to do.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

It is not a matter of "clinging to beliefs." I was addressing an argument that the teaching of eternal, unending punishment in "hell" was supposedly copied from pagan beliefs by the Christian church. I proved that such beliefs are found in Judaism from the earliest times. Now the problem you are faced with is PROVING, not just asserting that the beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, concerning eternal, unending punishment, was unscriptural.

Because Jesus used Gehenna's destruction to teach His disciples (after all, it was a place where perpetual fires were kept burning so as to rid the city of all contemptuous matter, including the bodies of dead criminals (law breakers) who were not thought worthy of a proper burial.) does not affirm what the ancient Jews believed about it. And where did the ancient Jews get this information about Gehenna, anyway?

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that at the time of Jesus Gehenna, "was a place where perpetual fires were kept burning so as to rid the city of all contemptuous matter, including the bodies of dead criminals, etc" and that Jesus was making reference to that and not the belief and practice of the Jews before his advent? Where did the Jews get the information about Gehenna? Please read the full article at the link and note all the scripture references. I have highlighted the scripture in blue, in my citation, above.

 

[consigliere31]

I have a question about intelligence here:
By stating that Hell is not as it is depicted in the Bible, parable or etc. you claim that your theory is correct where millions of theologians of countless generations are wrong. Do you believe that you are more intelligent and holier than every Patriarch, Saint, priest, bishop, biblical scholar, Spiritual Father, monk, nun, theologian, and Pope who are in constant connection with the Almighty God for the last 2000 years?

Another more personal question:
What would it take us to convince you?

Honestly, so many people in this world are so stubborn, including me. I am weary of arguing pointlessly if nobody is going to listen. People mold with new clay, not with hardened clay. I teach countless people every day, and they accept that they aren't the smartest being in the universe, and therefore they admit to the humanity's imperfection. I too am not perfect, that is why I trust God through the Scipture. If you refuse to listen to Scripture, then So Be It.

I will pray for you.

Peace.

I used to believe in the doctrine of hellfire and eternal punishment, maybe not from the beginning, but during the time I was involved in the church, I leaned towards this doctrine. Then I was brought back to my foundation of grace through faith in Christ, and through prayer and God's guiding me through the scriptures, I was reminded by the Spirit that the scriptures as a whole must be correctly divided. As the Spirit began showing me how the doctrine of hell was incorrect, I argued and tried to support the eternal punishment doctrine, from the same scriptures that you and others use to support this doctrine.

because I was not one to just ignore what I considered the Lord to be revealing to me, I opened my heart and started from scratch, and studied this completely for about 6 months or so until..it started to become clear that the Spirit of the Word had a spiritual meaning that was much deeper than the letter of the word that only my carnal mind could understand.

For about 6 years I have been fully convinced that this doctrine of eternal punishment is heresy, and the more I look into the Word of God, the more certain I am that this doctrine is a weapon of the antichrist spirit, that has a purpose to deny Jesus as the Christ and Savior of the world.

So far we have only been addressing the difficult passages that seem to paint God with a harsh brush. I haven't even scratched the surface with the scriptures I am intending on sharing in here to demonstrate God's love for all men and His salvation plan for all men.

You will be surprised at how much deeper the love you will have for Jesus when you understand His love triumphs over judgment for all of us. And the peace you will have knowing that your lost loved ones are not roasting in a pagan hellfire for eternity.

As far as the schoolars and multitudes who disagree, well I would say that there are many who do agree with hell as being a myth. Many figures in the past history have stood alone against the masses and majority...Luther being one example.

And you have no idea of the power of God's love to actually reach the lost when they are not given the ultimatum gospel of turn or burn in hell for eternity. I have seen the fruit of witnessing this perfect love and good news gospel of the ultimate restoration of all things, and the fruit of this speaks for itself.

What will it take to convince you, and I also will pray for you.

 

[Der Alte]

I used to believe in the doctrine of hellfire and eternal punishment, maybe not from the beginning, but during the time I was involved in the church, I leaned towards this doctrine. Then I was brought back to my foundation of grace through faith in Christ, and through prayer and God's guiding me through the scriptures, I was reminded by the Spirit that the scriptures as a whole must be correctly divided. As the Spirit began showing me how the doctrine of hell was incorrect, I argued and tried to support the eternal punishment doctrine, from the same scriptures that you and others use to support this doctrine.

because I was not one to just ignore what I considered the Lord to be revealing to me, I opened my heart and started from scratch, and studied this completely for about 6 months or so until..it started to become clear that the Spirit of the Word had a spiritual meaning that was much deeper than the letter of the word that only my carnal mind could understand.

For about 6 years I have been fully convinced that this doctrine of eternal punishment is heresy, and the more I look into the Word of God, the more certain I am that this doctrine is a weapon of the antichrist spirit, that has a purpose to deny Jesus as the Christ and Savior of the world.

So far we have only been addressing the difficult passages that seem to paint God with a harsh brush. I haven't even scratched the surface with the scriptures I am intending on sharing in here to demonstrate God's love for all men and His salvation plan for all men.

You will be surprised at how much deeper the love you will have for Jesus when you understand His love triumphs over judgment for all of us. And the peace you will have knowing that your lost loved ones are not roasting in a pagan hellfire for eternity.

As far as the schoolars and multitudes who disagree, well I would say that there are many who do agree with hell as being a myth. Many figures in the past history have stood alone against the masses and majority...Luther being one example.

And you have no idea of the power of God's love to actually reach the lost when they are not given the ultimatum gospel of turn or burn in hell for eternity. I have seen the fruit of witnessing this perfect love and good news gospel of the ultimate restoration of all things, and the fruit of this speaks for itself.

What will it take to convince you, and I also will pray for you.

Not unlike the private, esoteric "revelation" arguments presented by Jim Jones, David Koresh, JW, LDS, OP, UMJ, WWCJ, kristadelfians, etc. I was watching a TV program titled "Inside Saddam Hussein's Reign of Terror," the other night, it documented the discovery of mass graves of 400,000+ Iraqis, and showed video tapes of torture, and summary executions. Wonder why the early church, who spoke and read Greek, somehow got it wrong and did not believe that in the end everybody, including people like Saddam Hussein, would be saved, no matter what?

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

Tertullian - 9. A Treatise On The Soul
Chapter 7 [145-220 Ad]

The Soul’s Corporeality Demonstrated Out Of The Gospels

So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundant — a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham’s bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.

Cyprian - Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics [200-258 AD]

By his mouth, therefore, and by his words, is every one at once betrayed; and whether he has Christ in his heart, or Antichrist, is discerned in his speaking, according to what the Lord says in His Gospel, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; 703 and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius - A SYNOPSIS OF SOME APOSTOLIC WORDS FROM THE SAME DISCOURSE. [A.D. 260-312].

XIX. He says that Origen holds these opinions which he refutes. And there may be a doubt concerning Lazarus and the rich man. The simpler persons think that these things were spoken as though both were receiving their due for the things which they had done in life in their bodies; but the more accurate think that, since no one is left in life after the resurrection,
these things do not happen at the resurrection. For the rich man says: “I have five brethren;... lest they also come into this place of torment, “ send Lazarus, that he may tell them of those things which are here. And, therefore, if we ask respecting the “tongue,” and the “finger,” and “Abraham’s bosom,” and the reclining there, it may perhaps be that the soul receives in the change a form similar in appearance to its gross and 718 earthly body. If, then, any one of those who have fallen asleep is recorded as having appeared, in the same way he has been seen in the form which he had when he was in the flesh. Besides, when Samuel appeared, it is clear that, being seen, he was clothed in a body; and this must especially be admitted, if we are pressed by arguments which prove that the essence of the soul is incorporeal, and is manifested by itself. But the rich man in torment, and the poor man who was comforted in the bosom of Abraham, are said, the one to be punished in Hades, and the other to be comforted in Abraham’s bosom, before the appearing of the Savior, and before the end of the world, and therefore before the resurrection; teaching that now already, at the change, the soul rises a body.​

To verify writings of the ECF, click (Here!).

 

[gort]

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I plugged Der Über Älter into an online translator and it came back: The Over Old. What is that supposed to mean: too old? aged? ancient? over the hill?

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Around these parts, The Old Geezer will do

 

[Der Alte]

Around these parts, The Old Geezer will do

As "Aunt Flabby" would say, "Never say "old" to and old person!"

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Paul who preached the full council of God, never once taught anything on this subject of eternal punishment.

Actually, we don't have any transcripts of Paul's preaching. What we have are his epistles; which were never really intended to be evangelistic tools. What I mean is; they were hand-crafted letters addressing specific issues and dispatched to communities of believers rather than communities of unbelievers; and as such stand in stark contrast to the four Gospels; which is why Paul is sometimes accused of being the father of Christianity; when in reality, he was more like the father of churchianity.

The four Gospels are for the world at large, but Paul's epistles are for people past the Gospels and on their way to heaven. When the world at large rummages through his epistles, they are rummaging through something that's really none of their business; and actually tampering with other people's mail.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[consigliere31]

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RE: Paul who preached the full council of God, never once taught anything on this subject of eternal punishment.

Actually, we don't have any transcripts of Paul's preaching. What we have are his epistles; which were never really intended to be evangelistic tools. What I mean is; they were hand-crafted letters addressing specific issues and dispatched to communities of believers rather than communities of unbelievers; and as such stand in stark contrast to the four Gospels; which is why Paul is sometimes accused of being the father of Christianity; when in reality, he was more like the father of churchianity.

The four Gospels are for the world at large, but Paul's epistles are for people past the Gospels and on their way to heaven. When the world at large rummages through his epistles, they are rummaging through something that's really none of their business; and actually tampering with other people's mail.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Interesting, but I again disagree. The gosspels which contain the teachings of Christ are mainly directed towards the Jewish audience of fthe first century. When Gentiles asked of Christ, He either ignored them or told them that His bread was not for them.

Matthew 24
22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Paul who did address the unbelievers and philosophers at Mars Hill actually presented the gospel of Christ to them, a scipture which I have already quoted a couple times in this thread.

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[consigliere31]

Not unlike the private, esoteric "revelation" arguments presented by Jim Jones, David Koresh, JW, LDS, OP, UMJ, WWCJ, kristadelfians, etc. I was watching a TV program titled "Inside Saddam Hussein's Reign of Terror," the other night, it documented the discovery of mass graves of 400,000+ Iraqis, and showed video tapes of torture, and summary executions. Wonder why the early church, who spoke and read Greek, somehow got it wrong and did not believe that in the end everybody, including people like Saddam Hussein, would be saved, no matter what?

13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

The irony is that it is your theology of fear/turn or burn in hellfire that is more alike the Jim Jones and David Koresh theologies that have corrupted the love and acceptance of God towards mankind and lean towards fear to establish and manipulate a control over others,......... not mine.

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: The four Gospels are for the world at large, Interesting, but I again disagree. The gosspels which contain the teachings of Christ are mainly directed towards the Jewish audience of fthe first century. When Gentiles asked of Christ, He either ignored them or told them that His bread was not for them.

That all changed after Christ was executed.

†. Isa 49:6 . . And he said: It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

†. Acts 13:46-48 . .Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said: It was necessary that the word of God should have been spoken to you first: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying: I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

†. Mtt 28:19-20 . . Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone everywhere. Whoever believes and is baptized will be spared, but whoever disbelieves will be damned.

RE: Paul who did address the unbelievers and philosophers at Mars Hill actually presented the gospel of Christ to them, a scripture which I have already quoted a couple times in this thread.

Not even close. The oratory that Paul is recorded as speaking to the Athenians wasn't on a par with the four Gospels. The information he dispensed is so concise as to be just about useless for getting people saved as per the Gospel of Christ. However, his speech would probably be on a par with what is known as the Everlasting Gospel, which reads like this:

†. Rev 14:7 . . Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The everlasting gospel announces: 1) there is a supreme being, 2) there is a creator, 3) the cosmos is the product of intelligent design, and 4) human beings are accountable to God, and getting away with nothing— all, one by one, will be subpoenaed to appear in court and stand trial for the things they did in life.

Paul's version of the everlasting gospel included the element of Christ's resurrection, but contains not one single word about either how he died nor the purpose of his death; and lacked the crucial requirement of belief in his name.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[consigliere31]

.
RE: The four Gospels are for the world at large, Interesting, but I again disagree. The gosspels which contain the teachings of Christ are mainly directed towards the Jewish audience of fthe first century. When Gentiles asked of Christ, He either ignored them or told them that His bread was not for them.

That all changed after Christ was executed.

†. Isa 49:6 . . And he said: It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

†. Acts 13:46-48 . .Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said: It was necessary that the word of God should have been spoken to you first: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying: I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

†. Mtt 28:19-20 . . Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . He said to them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone everywhere. Whoever believes and is baptized will be spared, but whoever disbelieves will be damned.

RE: Paul who did address the unbelievers and philosophers at Mars Hill actually presented the gospel of Christ to them, a scripture which I have already quoted a couple times in this thread.

Not even close. The oratory that Paul is recorded as speaking to the Athenians wasn't on a par with the four Gospels. The information he dispensed is so concise as to be just about useless for getting people saved as per the Gospel of Christ. However, his speech would probably be on a par with what is known as the Everlasting Gospel, which reads like this:

†. Rev 14:7 . . Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The everlasting gospel announces: 1) there is a supreme being, 2) there is a creator, 3) the cosmos is the product of intelligent design, and 4) human beings are accountable to God, and getting away with nothing— all, one by one, will be subpoenaed to appear in court and stand trial for the things they did in life.

Paul's version of the everlasting gospel included the element of Christ's resurrection, but contains not one single word about either how he died nor the purpose of his death; and lacked the crucial requirement of belief in his name.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Yes I do agree that Christ is a light to the Gentiles, However the gospel you believe is not the gospel I believe. For starters I don't believe in the judgment day theology which speaks of all sinners in rank and file before the throne of God, having their sins rehearsed and then thrown into a literal burning hellfire because of those sins. That denies the very atonment of Christ who was judged for the sin of all mankind. That is the manistream churches gospel, not mine.

My gospel is as Paul taught and is spoken of in the verse I have shared, and as Abraham also had the gospel preached to him in advance...

The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

The gospel as I understand is about Christ reconciling man to God through His blood...and that is all inclusive with every man who would ever be born or was ever born..

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

and this gospel of reconciliation cannot fail, as reconciliation with God is not by man's choice, but by the authority given to Christ to subdue all things unto Himself and gather them together.

I do believe in juddgment, but not as you have described that contains consequences of a penalty for sin. The judgment I believe in condemns the body of flesh in sin already.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Notice the power of the gospel over those who are dead, it judges them according tothe flesh. so they can live according to God in regard to the Spirit.

The same power of God that judges and condemns the sin of the flesh in man, does so in order to demonstrate the power of the resurrection in Christ. The two....a judgment followed by a resurrection to life in God are mutually inclusive. A person cannot be judged and sent to hellfire in punishment, or the judgment is ineffective and powerless, showing that God has no power to judge in the first place.

NOw as far as the gospel being preached to all the nations, ..this too was fulfilled on Pentecost..Peter stood up and preached the full gospel to every creature under heaven, and there is nothing mentioned about eternal punishment in hellfire. The preaching of the gospel to every creature under heaven was a miracle that happenned in one day(see Acts 2) and was fulfilled according to the prophecy spoken by Christ, as Paul also confirms in the passage from Colossians I quoted above..

 

[Evergreen48]

They are tractates, different volumes, of the Talmud. Much of The Talmud is available online in at least two places.

Yes, I know.
　

The faith and practice of the Jews was based on the writings they considered authoritative before the birth of Christ. That the church did not canonize some of those writings is largely irrelevant, unless a specific teaching is shown to contradict other scripture.

The writngs which they considered authoriative were incorporated into what is called the 'Tanakh'. The Tanakh contained The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nev'im("Prophets"), and and Ketuvim ("Writings").

According to the Talmud (Bava Basra 14b-15a, Rashi to Megillah 3a, 14a), much of the contents of the Tanakh were compiled by the Men of the Great Assembly ("Anshei K'nesset HaGedolah" a task completed in 450 BCE, and have remained unchanged since that date. Evidence suggests that the "process of canonization" occurred between 200 BCE and 200 CE. A popular position is that the Torah was canonized circa 400 BCE, the Prophets circa 200 BCE, and the Writings circa 100 CE perhaps at a hypothetical Council of Jamnia — this position, however, is increasingly criticised by modern scholars. Some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140-37 BCE). Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. - From Wikipedia -
　

Logical fallacy, poisoning the well. That the Jews may have had some erroneous beliefs, which you have not specifically identified, does not negate any other belief. You made a claim, about Jesus, which if any specific beliefs and practices, relating to this topic, did Jesus not affirm as truth?

I didn't say anything about beliefs and practices that related to this particular topic. I simply said: "the Jews had many erroneous beliefs and practices concerning God. " . The following being only 3 examples, out of many of which there is no record of Jesus having affirmed as truths.

Luz (bone)
From Wikipedia,

Luz (Hebrew: 'לוז') is the name of a small bone in the human body, at the top of the spinal column (the seventh cervical vertebra) or at the base of the spinal column (the coccyx), according to different traditions Muslims and Jews believe that this is the bone from which the body will be rebuilt at the time of ressurection, and share the belief that this bone does not decay. Arabic books refer to this bone as "'ajbu adh-dhanab" --(عَجْبُ الذَّنَب).

There is an aggadah (legend) in the midrash that the Roman Emperor Hadrian asked how man would be revived in the world to come, and Rabbi Joshua Ben Hananiah replied that it would be "From Luz, in the back-bone." "Prove this to me," said Hadrian. Then the Rabbi took Luz, a small bone of the spine, and immersed it in water, but it was not softened; he put it into the fire, but it was not consumed; he put it into a mill, but it could not be pounded; he placed it upon an anvil and struck it with a hammer, but the anvil split and the hammer was broken. (Ecclesiates Rabbah xxi/ Genesis Rabbah xviii.)

John 11)39. Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

[For he hath been dead four days.] The three days of weeping were now past, and the four days of lamentation begun: so that all hope and expectation of his coming to himself was wholly gone.

"They go to the sepulchres, and visit the dead for three days. Neither are they solicitous lest they should incur the reproach of the Amorites." The story is, They visited a certain person, and he revived again, and lived five-and-twenty years, and then died. They tell of another that lived again, and begot children, and then died.

"It is a tradition of Ben Kaphra's: The very height of mourning is not till the third day. For three days the spirit wanders about the sepulchre, expecting if it may return into the body. But when it sees that the form or aspect of the face is changed, then it hovers no more, but leaves the body to itself."

"They do not certify of the dead" [that this is the very man, and not another] 'but within the three days after his decease': for after three days his countenance is changed." From John Lightfoot's (1602 -1675) commentary on John 11:39.

Rabbi Akiba: "How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed." - From Adam Clark's (1760-1832) commentary on 1 Cor. 15:52

In fact, Jesus told the multitude to do what the leaders told them to do.
　
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus was simply telling them that they were to obey the laws of Moses which was being dispensed by the Pharasees and the Saducees who were 'sitting in Moses' seat'. He certainly was not telling them that they should believe in the Jewish fables and superstitions such as in the examples that were given.

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that at the time of Jesus Gehenna, "was a place where perpetual fires were kept burning so as to rid the city of all contemptuous matter, including the bodies of dead criminals, etc" .

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence showing when, and why, this story about Gehenna being the place 'where perpetual fires were kept burning so as to rid the city of all contemptuous matter, including the bodies of dead criminals,' began to be circulated?

and that Jesus was making reference to that and not the belief and practice of the Jews before his advent? Where did the Jews get the information about Gehenna? Please read the full article at the link and note all the scripture references. I have highlighted the scripture in blue, in my citation, above

The scriptures which you have highlighted in blue do not prove anything. For instance, Gen. 15:17 does not prove that the firey furnace that Abraham saw was Gehenna. Also, the note that you provided within the Jewish Encyclopedia article - [Note this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] is in error. The 'Talmud' from which the Jewish Encyclopedia quotes is not pre Christian era.
　
The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah(c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.
The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah. - Wikipedia -

 

[consigliere31]

I have a question about intelligence here:
By stating that Hell is not as it is depicted in the Bible, parable or etc. you claim that your theory is correct where millions of theologians of countless generations are wrong. Do you believe that you are more intelligent and holier than every Patriarch, Saint, priest, bishop, biblical scholar, Spiritual Father, monk, nun, theologian, and Pope who are in constant connection with the Almighty God for the last 2000 years?

Another more personal question:
What would it take us to convince you?

Honestly, so many people in this world are so stubborn, including me. I am weary of arguing pointlessly if nobody is going to listen. People mold with new clay, not with hardened clay. I teach countless people every day, and they accept that they aren't the smartest being in the universe, and therefore they admit to the humanity's imperfection. I too am not perfect, that is why I trust God through the Scipture. If you refuse to listen to Scripture, then So Be It.

I will pray for you.

Peace.

Ok here is an honest question for you and everyone who believes in eternal punishment for sinners in hellfire.

How can you confess that you believe in faith and grace in Christ, while at the same time adhere to a theology that is based upon human merits and works of the flesh?

The only foundation for a punishment and rewards theology , must be structured around works of the law and take into account human merits.

Punishment and rewards cannot exist otherwise, unless God is unjustly just randomly making judgments in the same way that one might play bingo and win or lose. God either roles the dice on each individual and gambles away their eternity, or He judges according to the merits they have accomplished or the unmeritings that they have failed. Now seeing as though the truth is God is love and this gambling of human destinies on a whim is not in God's nature, then the only alternative is that punishment and reward is based upon a persons works and human meritings of accomplishments, or a neglecting of them.

Now how is your theology based upon grace in Christ?

Forget about how you think the bible is interpreted, because unless you have a foundation that is built upon grace, the scriptures are veiled from your ability to undrstand....And it seems obvious that you don't have the foundation of grace....and if you ever did begin with a foundation of grace in Christ, it is now utterly flawed or as Jesus put it, choked out by the tares.

Start with asking the Lord to reveal this verse to you, and when you understand the difference between grace and works...the we can discuss the rest of scripture.

Roman 11
6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I know.

The writngs which they considered authoriative were incorporated into what is called the 'Tanakh'. The Tanakh contained The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nev'im("Prophets"), and and Ketuvim ("Writings").

Thank for this unsolicited and irrelevant lesson. The books cited by the JE are considered authoritative, for their beliefs and practices, whether you agree or not, what you or any other contemporary person thinks the ancient Jews shoulda, coulda, woulda done is totally irrelevant. 　

According to the Talmud (Bava Basra 14b-15a, Rashi to Megillah 3a, 14a), much of the contents of the Tanakh were compiled by the Men of the Great Assembly ("Anshei K'nesset HaGedolah" [ . . . ] From Wikipedia -

I didn't say anything about beliefs and practices that related to this particular topic. I simply said: "the Jews had many erroneous beliefs and practices concerning God. " . The following being only 3 examples, out of many of which there is no record of Jesus having affirmed as truths.

Luz (bone)
From Wikipedia,

Luz (Hebrew: 'לוז') is the name of a small bone in the human body, at the top of the spinal column (the seventh cervical vertebra) or at the base of the spinal column (the coccyx),[ . . . ] From John Lightfoot's (1602 -1675) commentary on John 11:39.

Rabbi Akiba: "How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? [ . . . ] From Adam Clark's (1760-1832) commentary on 1 Cor. 15:52

I particularly emphasized beliefs and practices that related to this particular topic because that is the only thing relevant. If there is anything relating to this particular topic that Jesus specifically addressed and refuted please state it here, otherwise it has no relevance whatsoever. Note that you quote Wikipedia, which is about as reliable as scribblings on a public wall. Clark and Lightfoot, while more reliable, are 2d and 3d hand sources. And none of this relates to this topic. Quoting 19th-20th century western scholars does NOT refute anything I posted. The Jews knew what they believed and practiced.

Jesus was simply telling them that they were to obey the laws of Moses which was being dispensed by the Pharasees and the Saducees who were 'sitting in Moses' seat'. He certainly was not telling them that they should believe in the Jewish fables and superstitions such as in the examples that were given.

What you think, suppose, surmise, guess, etc that Jesus did or did not mean is not relevant. Nothing that Jesus ever taught indicates that he thought that eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous was NOT Biblical truth, in fact, much of his teaching supports it, e.g. Matt 18:8-9, 22:2-14, 25:41-46, Mark 9:43-46, Luke 16:19-31. Please refrain from trying to tell me what you think all these passages "really mean."

The scriptures which you have highlighted in blue do not prove anything. For instance, Gen. 15:17 does not prove that the firey furnace that Abraham saw was Gehenna.

What you "think" Gen 15:17, or any of the other scripture means is absolutely irrelevant.

Also, the note that you provided within the Jewish Encyclopedia article - [Note this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] is in error. The 'Talmud' from which the Jewish Encyclopedia quotes is not pre Christian era.

Perhaps you should read Jewish sources, on exactly what the Talmud is. You will find e.g. that the two major rabbinical schools during Jesus' lifetime, Hillel and Shammai, are cited in the Talmud.
　

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah(c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.
The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"&#1505, a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah. - Wikipedia -

Once again an unsolicited and irrelevant quote from a notoriously unreliable source. May I suggest you read the article on the Talmud, in a Jewish source, e.g. the Jewish Encyclopedia. Neither the Mishna nor Gemara sprang full blown on the scene in 200 or 500 CE.

 

[Evergreen48]

　

Thank for this unsolicited and irrelevant lesson. The books cited by the JE are considered authoritative, for their beliefs and practices, whether you agree or not, what you or any other contemporary person thinks the ancient Jews shoulda, coulda, woulda done is totally irrelevant.

You're welcome.

I particularly emphasized beliefs and practices that related to this particular topic because that is the only thing relevant. If there is anything relating to this particular topic that Jesus specifically addressed and refuted please state it here, otherwise it has no relevance whatsoever.

The examples I gave are relevant in that they, like their belief about Gehenna being a literal place of everlasting torment, are all 'cut out of the same piece of cloth', as neither of the four beliefs have any scriptural foundation. They are all mythical Jewish superstitions.

Note that you quote Wikipedia, which is about as reliable as scribblings on a public wall.

I quoted from Wikipedia mainly because it was the closest and handiest thing I had at hand at the time that I could copy and paste from. But very well, if you would have a little more of a reliable source:

Talmud, body of Jewish civil and religious law, including commentaries on the Torah, or Pentateuch. The Talmud consists of a codification of laws, called the Mishnah, and a commentary on the Mishnah, called the Gemara. The material in the Talmud that concerns decisions by scholars on disputed legal questions is known as the Halakah; the legends, anecdotes, and sayings in the Talmud that are used to illustrate the traditional law are known as Haggada.
Two compilations of the Talmud exist: the Palestinian Talmud, sometimes called the Jerusalem Talmud, and the Babylonian Talmud. Both compilations contain the same Mishnah, but each has its own Gemara. The contents of the Palestinian Talmud were written by Palestinian scholars between the 3rd century AD and the beginning of the 5th century; those of the Babylonian Talmud, by scholars who wrote between the 3rd century and the beginning of the 6th century. The Babylonian Talmud became authoritative because the rabbinic academies of Babylonia survived those in Palestine by many centuries.
The Talmud itself, the works of talmudic scholarship, and the commentaries concerning it constitute the greatest contributions to rabbinical literature in the history of Judaism. One of the most important of the works of scholarship is the Mishneh Torah (Repetition of the Torah, c. 1180) by the Spanish rabbi, philosopher, and physician Maimonides; it is an abstract of all the rabbinical legal literature in existence at his time. The most widely known commentaries are those on the Babylonian Talmud by the French rabbi Rashi and by certain scholars known as tosaphists, who lived in France and Germany between the 12th and 14th centuries and included some of Rashi's grandsons.
The Babylonian Talmud and the Palestinian Talmud were first printed in 1520-22 and in 1523 in Venice by the printer Daniel Bomberg. The entire Babylonian Talmud is available in an English translation (1935-52) edited by the British rabbi and scholar Isidore Epstein. Most of the Palestinian Talmud is available in a 19th-century French translation, but the rendering is defective and inaccurate. Twenty tractates of the Palestinian Talmud are found in a Latin translation, in the Thesaurus Antiquitatum Sacrarum (1744-69) of Blasio Ugolino, an 18th-century Italian historian and antiquarian.
Contributed By:
Saul Lieberman

Lieberman, Saul, M.A., D.H.L., Ph.D.
　
Late Distinguished Service Professor of Talmud and Rector of the Rabbinical School, Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Author of Greek in Jewish Palestine and Hellenism in Jewish Palestine. - Encarta -
　
　

Clark and Lightfoot, while more reliable, are 2d and 3d hand sources. And none of this relates to this topic. Quoting 19th-20th century western scholars does NOT refute anything I posted. The Jews knew what they believed and practiced.

Lightfoot and Clarke were both very accomplished in Hebraisms. And guess what: what you posted from the JE became a 3d hand source the moment you posted it.

What you think, suppose, surmise, guess, etc that Jesus did or did not mean is not relevant. Nothing that Jesus ever taught indicates that he thought that eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous was NOT Biblical truth, in fact, much of his teaching supports it, e.g. Matt 18:8-9, 22:2-14, 25:41-46, Mark 9:43-46, Luke 16:19-31.

I never said I 'thought, supposed, surmised or guessed' anything. I wrote just the facts.

Jesus did not teach from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Everything that Jesus taught came from what we now call the Old Testament, which was their 'bible' at that time. He could not teach that it was NOT a biblical truth if there was nothing about the 'unending punishment of the unrighteous' recorded there to start with. So, Matt. 18:8-9, 22:2-14, 25:41-46, Mark 9:43, & Luke:16:19-31 could not possibly be 'support' for a doctrine that was never in existence to start with. And I am sure that you have read and heard other expositions on these scriptures ? If not, you should seriously consider seeking some of them out for your consideration just on the possiblility that you could be wrong about your 'take' on them.

please refrain from trying to tell me what you think all these passages "really mean."

And if I don't, what will you do then?

What you "think" Gen 15:17, or any of the other scripture means is absolutely irrelevant.

My comment about Gen. 15:17 was not 'what I thought'. It was a matter of fact.

Perhaps you should read Jewish sources, on exactly what the Talmud is. You will find e.g. that the two major rabbinical schools during Jesus' lifetime, Hillel and Shammai, are cited in the Talmud.

I see. And what would you suppose that the 'students' from Hillel's and Shammai's rabbinical schools were taught concerning this man who was called Jesus, and who claimed to be the promised Messiah?

Once again an unsolicited and irrelevant quote from a notoriously unreliable source. May I suggest you read the article on the Talmud, in a Jewish source, e.g. the Jewish Encyclopedia. Neither the Mishna nor Gemara sprang full blown on the scene in 200 or 500 CE.

Since the argument here is about whether or not the Talmud was in existence , as you said, "long before the Christian era', and the article that was posted from the Encarta, which , btw, is a reliable source, proves my side of the argument, I don't feel that it is necessary that I go to the Jewish Encyclopedia for my source. But thanks anyway.

 

[Der Alte]

The examples I gave are relevant in that they, like their belief about Gehenna being a literal place of everlasting torment, are all 'cut out of the same piece of cloth', as neither of the four beliefs have any scriptural foundation. They are all mythical Jewish superstitions.

Classic logical fallacy, poisoning the well. Repeating a false premise does NOT make it right! Because someone, or a group, is wrong about "X", does not make them make them wrong about "Y" or "Z", or anything else.

Lieberman, Saul, M.A., D.H.L., Ph.D.

I will concede that Lieberman is a knowledgeable Jewish scholar. But his article does not explain how the writings of Hillel and Shammai, who lived concurrent with Jesus, appear in the Talmud if it was not written until 200-300 years later.

Lightfoot and Clarke were both very accomplished in Hebraisms. And guess what: what you posted from the JE became a 3d hand source the moment you posted it.

But my quotes have the advantage of being from a Jewish sources without any Christian bias or influence and deal with the subject of this thread, your citations did not!

I never said I 'thought, supposed, surmised or guessed' anything. I wrote just the facts.

My comment about Gen. 15:17 was not 'what I thought'. It was a matter of fact.

You tried to tell me what you think the text “really means,” in your own words. Thanks, but no thanks, I have been reading English for a number of decades and don't need it explained. I also read both Biblical languages and do not need those explained in someone else's own words.

Jesus did not teach from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Everything that Jesus taught came from what we now call the Old Testament, which was their 'bible' at that time. He could not teach that it was NOT a biblical truth if there was nothing about the 'unending punishment of the unrighteous' recorded there to start with.

The teaching of Jesus on the fate of the unrighteous mirrors the teaching of Jews in, and prior to, the first century. Since you quite evidently have not reviewed any of the scripture cited in the JE on Gehenna, you have no basis for stating what the OT did or did not teach. I am quite sure you do not read either Biblical language, and I am equally sure that you do not have any credible Greek or Hebrew language resources. Your unsupported opinion is irrelevant.

So, Matt. 18:8-9, 22:2-14, 25:41-46, Mark 9:43, & Luke:16:19-31 could not possibly be 'support' for a doctrine that was never in existence to start with. And I am sure that you have read and heard other expositions on these scriptures ? If not, you should seriously consider seeking some of them out for your consideration just on the possiblility that you could be wrong about your 'take' on them.

I most certainly have heard other expositions of these passages. They generally fall into the SPAM-Fig category. Whenever scripture, as written, contradicts someone's false beliefs they are rejected as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative. Another non-exegetical response is “A loving God would never endlessly punishment his creation, so those verse can't mean that.” I would be interested in your exegesis of the passages I cited rather than the so predictable rejection response of what you think they “really mean.”

I see. And what would you suppose that the 'students' from Hillel's and Shammai's rabbinical schools were taught concerning this man who was called Jesus, and who claimed to be the promised Messiah?

Since the argument here is about whether or not the Talmud was in existence , as you said, "long before the Christian era', and the article that was posted from the Encarta, which , btw, is a reliable source, proves my side of the argument, I don't feel that it is necessary that I go to the Jewish Encyclopedia for my source. But thanks anyway.

Well according to your source the Talmud did not even exist until a few hundred years after Jesus, so how could it tell me what the students of Hillel and Shammai taught about Jesus? And of course this is a logical fallacy. It does not matter what they taught about Jesus, especially since his rejection by his own people was prophesied in the OT. Since the Talmud does include writings from the first century we can conclude that it did exist in some form before the birth of Jesus.

And just to set the record straight, were you to actually read the JE article on Gehenna, the teaching that there is a place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous, is derived from scripture NOT the Talmud. The Talmud is exegesis and commentary on scripture it was not a source of faith and practice.

 

[consigliere31]

What you think, suppose, surmise, guess, etc that Jesus did or did not mean is not relevant. Nothing that Jesus ever taught indicates that he thought that eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous was NOT Biblical truth, in fact, much of his teaching supports it, e.g. Matt 18:8-9, 22:2-14, 25:41-46, Mark 9:43-46, Luke 16:19-31. Please refrain from trying to tell me what you think all these passages "really mean."

I don't think youu really care about anyone's opinion but your own cemented theology.

A proper exegesis of these passages takes into account the entirety of the scripture.

Matthew 18:8-9 is also mentioned in Mark 9, where Jesus quotes from the prophet Isaiah chapter 66.... The body obviously reperesnts Jerusalem who was about to go into unquenchable fire, where the worm dieth not, once again. Jesus was warning His disciples to cut themselves away from the natural body(Jerusalem) The past prophets fortold this event and the prophetic figurative expression was used, 'unquenchable fire' just as the prophets have previously used this expression, when prophecying of the destruction and judgment from God, that would come to Jerusalem. Unquenchable fire was used by the prophets to signify a fiery judgment from God, when in 722 BC, Jerusalem would be destroyed at the hand of the Assyrians, and again 'unquenchable fire' is used in 586 BC when Jerusalem would be taken captive and destroyed at the hands of the Babylonians.

Jesus used this same expression to warn of the upcoming destruction that would take place in that first century generation in the Roman/jewish war of AD 70. The correct scriptural exegesis demonstrates that this is the correct usage by Jesus quoting this expression from Isaiah 66 in mark 9.

In Matthew 22 we are told explicitely that this is a parable, and once again it is describing the kingdom of God being taken away from the jews and being given to those who were outside the kingdom(the Gentiles)

The many who were called were the natural children of God, the children of Israel, and though the many were called, only a few were chosen, and they were the remnant chosen. according to grace. Paul expresses this more indepthly in the book of Romans.

Matthew 25 is again speaking parables, and these parables were spoken for first century Jews only. This is verified by Jesus as He quotes Isaiah on the reasons sthat the parables were spoken and who they were spoken towards specifically.

What you think these parables mean is an error, as you don't understand why they were spoken in the first place, nor to whom they were intended.

 

[St.PaultheApostle]

Ok here is an honest question for you and everyone who believes in eternal punishment for sinners in hellfire.

How can you confess that you believe in faith and grace in Christ, while at the same time adhere to a theology that is based upon human merits and works of the flesh?

The only foundation for a punishment and rewards theology , must be structured around works of the law and take into account human merits.

Punishment and rewards cannot exist otherwise, unless God is unjustly just randomly making judgments in the same way that one might play bingo and win or lose. God either roles the dice on each individual and gambles away their eternity, or He judges according to the merits they have accomplished or the unmeritings that they have failed. Now seeing as though the truth is God is love and this gambling of human destinies on a whim is not in God's nature, then the only alternative is that punishment and reward is based upon a persons works and human meritings of accomplishments, or a neglecting of them.

Now how is your theology based upon grace in Christ?

Forget about how you think the bible is interpreted, because unless you have a foundation that is built upon grace, the scriptures are veiled from your ability to undrstand....And it seems obvious that you don't have the foundation of grace....and if you ever did begin with a foundation of grace in Christ, it is now utterly flawed or as Jesus put it, choked out by the tares.

Start with asking the Lord to reveal this verse to you, and when you understand the difference between grace and works...the we can discuss the rest of scripture.

Roman 11
6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace

Put not your trust in princes and sons of man in whom there is no Salvation.

You tried to dodge my two questions.

A. Do you believe that you are hollier and more intelligent to every priest, deacon, monk, nun, bishop, arch-bishop, Metropolitan, Patriarch, Cardinal, Pope, religious scholar, theologian, Orthodoxian, Catholic, rabbi, high-priest, Jew, and EVERY OTHER Christian for the last 8000 years or so? I say hollier because they follow the Bible INCLUDING THE WHOLE SELL YOUR STUFF, AND CMON PART, they are imbued with the Holy Spirit. Nobody knows everything except the ALLKNOWING GOD.

B. What would it take to convince you? Divine Visitation? The Voice of God? Apocalyptic visions? Holy Flame (that does not consume flesh)? Talking, crying, or moving icons/pictures of Jesus? Visiting Hell itself? Or even the bodilly manifestation of Christ? Sadly that would waste God's time, and since you ignored His Word that I sent you earlier, I doubt you would believe me if I walked through fire to prove a point.

You have ignored not only these two questions, but the MANY Biblical Scriptures I sent earlier in this topic.
If you still do not agree, I'm going to have to refind the Hebrew Scripture, the untranslated Bible whose meaning has not changed, and put it into English myself (VERY DIFFICULT AND TIMESTAKING). But then again, you probably wouldn't believe that either.

The Orthodox Church has not changed its theological doctrines and teachings since its origin. It was originally part of the Catholic Church, but before that it was known as "The Way". The Way was started by none other than Paul and the 11 Original Faithful Apostles, and later joined by famous Christian Fathers, such as: Luke (THE GOSPEL WRITER), Barnabas, Timothy. Paul was joined by Luke for awhile sometime during Paul's Second Missionary Journey. That's right, Paul was hanging with Luke. They started the "radical movement of Christianity" (which wasn't called Christianity until later, when Jesus was dubbed "Christus" by Roman officials). After The Way was dubbed Christianity, traditionalism kept the Apostallic and Christian teachings as the were, with developing ethnicity in some areas. The Eastern Church was experiencing major poverty issues, ESPECIALLY THE CLERGY WHO REMAINED BROKE BECAUSE THEY GAVE ALL WORLDLY POSESSIONS TO THE POOR, keeping them pure from materialism while the west was undergoing power-struggles between clergy and royalty. No doctrines or ANYTHING was changed not only because of traditionalism and purity, but also because THERE WAS NO WRITTEN LANGUAGE FOR THE EASTERN CHRISTIANS, all that they had was the Greek and Hebrew writings passed down. Then, after the Great Schism, Cyril and Methodius's written language became used for the Eastern people. All this time nothing was changed in anything involving teachings or Scripture.
My point is: Orthodox teachings are the same as "The Way's". "The Way's" teachings were the same as the Judeo-Christians, just involving ethnicity and the Body and Blood of Christ, as well as simple things like candles developed in the early catecomb stage. The Judeo-Christian's, including the Apostles, teachings remained as FIRST SOURCE ACCOUNTS OF CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD'S TEACHINGS!
Meaning:
1. Our Teachings were passed down unaltered from the Son of God.
and
2. Your theories were invented and reinvented time and time again by Protestant Reformers angry at the [EARLY] Catholic Church's corruption and materialism. And then HUNDREDS of times reinvented off of Protestant reformers reforming other Protestant reformer's teachings. (You ever wonder WHY its called PROTESTant?). And then ethnicity was added over time through the reforming. Nondenominationalism's theories are endless and each one unique, but they aren't in a main-stream Church 99% of the time because they either disagree with them, or are angry/furious at certain sections.

(Not trying to be mean here, just stating FACTS, not opinions.)

Which leads me to my next questions:
C. What denomination are YOU?

D. Is it really that hard to believe that God has a higher logic than you, and that Hell exists and is completely and totally fair?

E. By your philosophies. what happens to people like Adolf Hitler (look up Holocaust under Google Images and Wikipedia if you don't know of the attrocities committed)?

Here are most of the passages you forgot about:

Deuteronomy 32:22 -For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2 Samuel 22:6 -The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 - It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psalm 9:17- The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psalm 16:10- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 18:5- The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 55:15- Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Psalm 86:13- For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalm 116:3- The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8- If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Proverbs 5:5- Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Proverbs 7:27- Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 9:18- But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Proverbs 15:11- Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Proverbs 15:24- The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Proverbs 23:14- Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Proverbs 27:20- Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isaiah 5:14- Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isaiah 14:9- Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:15- Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 28:15- Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18- And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isaiah 57:9- And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Ezekiel 31:16- I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17- They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Ezekiel 32:21- The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Ezekiel 32:27- And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Amos 9:2- Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.

Jonah 2:2- And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Habakkuk 2:5- Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Matthew 5:22- But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29- And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30- And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 11:23- And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 16:18- And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:9- And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 23:15- Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33- Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43- And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45- And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47- And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15- And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5- But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23- And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:27- Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31- He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

James 3:6- And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2 Peter 2:4- For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Revelation 1:18- I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 6:8- And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


I typed this all up on my iPhone, because apparently my laptop couldn't handle it either, its broken, but getting fixed. I would appreciate it if you read all if this.

Peace.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't think youu really care about anyone's opinion but your own cemented theology. .

You keep repeating your own opinion of what these passages mean but saying something over and over is NOT providing evidence and it does not address my evidence from Jewish sources and the early church which I posted previously on this thread.

Jewish Encyclopedia link

Jewish Encyclopedia link

ECF link

A proper exegesis of these passages takes into account the entirety of the scripture. .

Then why in every case do you ignore the fact that Jesus introduces each passage with the words “The kingdom of heaven is likened to. . . “ clearly showing that he was NOT talking about the Jews and Jerusalem 40 or so years later?

Matthew 18:8-9 is also mentioned in Mark 9, where Jesus quotes from the prophet Isaiah chapter 66.... The body obviously reperesnts Jerusalem who was about to go into unquenchable fire, where the worm dieth not, once again. Jesus was warning His disciples to cut themselves away from the natural body(Jerusalem) The past prophets fortold this event and the prophetic figurative expression was used, 'unquenchable fire' just as the prophets have previously used this expression, when prophecying of the destruction and judgment from God, that would come to Jerusalem. Unquenchable fire was used by the prophets to signify a fiery judgment from God, when in 722 BC, Jerusalem would be destroyed at the hand of the Assyrians, and again 'unquenchable fire' is used in 586 BC when Jerusalem would be taken captive and destroyed at the hands of the Babylonians.

Jesus used this same expression to warn of the upcoming destruction that would take place in that first century generation in the Roman/jewish war of AD 70. The correct scriptural exegesis demonstrates that this is the correct usage by Jesus quoting this expression from Isaiah 66 in mark 9.

This all sounds good but I have heard it all before and have not seen any kind of evidence supporting it, in fact the Jewish sources I posted contradict this fanciful concoction.

In Matthew 22 we are told explicitely that this is a parable, and once again it is describing the kingdom of God being taken away from the jews and being given to those who were outside the kingdom(the Gentiles)

How could Jesus tell us in chap. 22 that something he said earlier in a different place, to a totally different audience was a parable? You evidently do not know or understand the purpose of parables, Jesus used everyday known occurrences to explain little known or misunderstood Biblical truths.

The many who were called were the natural children of God, the children of Israel, and though the many were called, only a few were chosen, and they were the remnant chosen. according to grace. Paul expresses this more indepthly in the book of Romans.

Interesting but unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

Matthew 25 is again speaking parables, and these parables were spoken for first century Jews only. This is verified by Jesus as He quotes Isaiah on the reasons sthat the parables were spoken and who they were spoken towards specifically.

What you think these parables mean is an error, as you don't understand why they were spoken in the first place, nor to whom they were intended.

What you think the parables represent is your false opinion based on erroneous assumptions/presuppositions.